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'[EE] [OT] Yay! High efficiency LEDs!'
2007\07\14@080710 by Tony Smith

picon face
Sigh, not really.

I just finished watching an Australian TV show called 'The New Inventors',
specifically this -
<http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1969641.htm>.

I thought 'big deal, anyone could make that, and they already do'.  Then the
usual warning bells started to go off...

"I've changed the architecture of the LED"
"Our lab is the best for testing this" - (when asked for independent test
results)
"It runs directly off AC" - (like that's hard)
"It's a secret"
"No patent, then you'd know the secret"
"Very little heat"
"Incandescent bulbs are only 40% efficient" - (eh?  Lose a decimal point,
did we?)

Judging started off well, with doubts cast on 'black boxes' and 'snake oil'
getting a mention.  At the end of the show he WON!  Gah!  The judges seemed
to feel 'well, it may be hoax, but it'll be really good if it works'.  Not
the first time they've been scammed, btw.  Hmm, why do I watch this show?

And of course, he's "working on a new super-efficient car engine that will
have only a handful of parts".  No doubt using a Steon magnet thingy to
crack water for hydrogen.

Reminds me of the comment from the bloke who invented the 'Metal Storm'
weapons system, he said all inventors try to build a better engine, then
they go and do something that actually works.

There's still plenty of suckers out there, go get 'em.

Tony

2007\07\14@230752 by Jinx

face picon face
> I just finished watching an Australian TV show called 'The New
> Inventors', specifically this -
>
> <http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1969641.htm>.

No positive comments at all in the forum. "con" "scam" etc. Public
domain examples of what he claims in the "How It Works" can be
found quite easily, eg

"Keith has also developed an innovative way to change the current
from the mains AC into the DC needed to run an LED. The diode
itself is used to 'rectify' the current. By doing this, Keith's lights
save more power and run much cooler than current lights"

Like, nobody else has realised you can't spell LED without "diode"

Always skeptical when someone says they can do *that* much
better than industry leaders

Good luck with those Chinese LEDs Keith

2007\07\15@064236 by Tony Smith

picon face
{Quote hidden}

Yeah, it's pretty sad.  The point at where they were talking about testing,
and he's saying his lab tests are all you need since his lab is obviously
better than all the others is the point where you reply "oh, piss off you
wanker".

Ok, making a LED lamp for outdoors is a bit trickier than it looks, but it's
been solved (traffic lights).

I'm still wondering where he gets his 40% efficient incandescent lamps from.

A major breakthrough in LEDs and all he can do is street lamps?  Wanker.

Tony

- the ABC is the national broadcaster in Oz, non-commercial, government
funded, similar to the BBC in the UK.  They're supposed to be smarter than
this.

2007\07\15@223240 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> - the ABC is the national broadcaster in Oz, non-commercial,
> government
> funded, similar to the BBC in the UK.  They're supposed to be
> smarter than
> this.

So tell them.
Politely.
Spell it out.
Simple and clear but damning.
Don't embarrass them.
Offer technical expertise.
Note perhaps that they have been conned but keep it so that THEY don't
feel defensive.
You may even get a "retrial" by TV.



           Russell


2007\07\16@073802 by Tony Smith

picon face
> > - the ABC is the national broadcaster in Oz, non-commercial,
> > government funded, similar to the BBC in the UK.  They're
> supposed to
> > be smarter than this.
>
> So tell them.
> Politely.
> Spell it out.
> Simple and clear but damning.
> Don't embarrass them.
> Offer technical expertise.
> Note perhaps that they have been conned but keep it so that
> THEY don't feel defensive.
> You may even get a "retrial" by TV.


They're not particuarly bothered.

I did send them a 'I think this is bollocks' email earlier, and I expect to
get the same form reply back as per the previous times I pointed crap out.

The show is often a mixed bag of 'neat', 'eh?', 'duh', 'lame' & 'wtf?'.  The
FFWD button gets a workout.

They do have some rather novel stuff at times,
'Move ya bastard' -
<www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1854237.htm>,
a new u-joint - <http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1849939.htm>,
bandage thingy - <www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1964994.htm>,
Blowfly sander - <www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1881869.htm>
Impact driver (neat!) -
<http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1754149.htm> etc.

Then there's:
A loo vent? - <www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1958483.htm>,
Cat-proof fence? - <www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1943230.htm>,
Mirrors? - <www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1925996.htm>,
RFID? - <www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1917569.htm>,
Pee target? - <http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1860576.htm>.

Now there's the stuff that looks ok at first glance, but afterwards it's a
case of, 'eh, that can't work', eg
<http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1571277.htm>.  Lets feed the
tool exhaust back to the compressor inlet...

And then there's the outright frauds or the delusional, who should have been
filtered out beforehand.  Jinx needs these:
<http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1607748.htm>.

Oh look, there's that magical (up to which includes 0) 11% fuel saving.  10%
would mean we just made it up, but 11%, no way matey, that's from testing.
It's the con-artists version of 99 cent pricing.  Check the 'How it works'
page <http://www.fuelsavers.com.au/HowItWorks.htm>, vortex things & a big
wing!  Woot!  And highly technical drawing done by a 3-year-old in MS-Paint.
I'm convinced!  Only losers do smoke tests in wind tunnels.

Jinx might want these too -
<http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1128892.htm>.  "Dunno about cars
mate, but I know me spark plugs."

Add the carby vortex gizmo, and your car will run off the methane from a cow
farting downwind.

Yeah right - <http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1160726.htm>, a 9v
battery can protect an entire olympic pool.  Maybe if you ran around
whacking the mozzies with it.

I'll give this guy <www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1952528.htm>
the benefit of the doubt since I'm feeling generous.  It's more a wtf?
moment though.

Time to glue some crystals to the fridge seals, it gives 11% better cooling,
honest!

Tony

2007\07\16@085952 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face

> Time to glue some crystals to the fridge seals, it gives 11% better
> cooling,
> honest!

It does if you use Dilithium crystals*  !!!
But, finding the fridge thereafter can require a major trek.


       Russell


* Vapo[u]r phase Dilithium doesn't work, as it exists.



2007\07\16@103129 by Jinx

face picon face
> And then there's the outright frauds or the delusional, who should
> have been filtered out beforehand.  Jinx needs these:
> <http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1607748.htm>

Two people comment that Boeing use these vortex things on their
planes and probably are patented. Ass-sueing possibly ensuing

> Yeah right - <www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1160726.htm>
> a 9v battery can protect an entire olympic pool.  Maybe if you ran
> around whacking the mozzies with it.

They do seem to have got performance figures, and it looks like
it does do something beneficial. Although you have to wonder
how much energy it takes to knock electrons out of a calcium
atom, and how long a battery can supply that energy, especially
a small portable unit that can scrub a 400,000l pool. As well as
frequency sweeping to annoy microbes. Even though they claim
1500 installations, it could be a placebo / wishful thinking effect,
like those wretched fuel-saver magnets

Which, by the way, is still an ongoing issue. Repco didn't respond
to my points raised by their initial reply (see below) and the
Commerce Commission staff are having their annual conference
(what ? all of them ?) and won't be getting back to me until next
week

The New Inventors program seems to be taking a lot of stick for
presenting products that are neither new nor inventions


*************

The reply from Repco below. My points back to them, in more
detail, were basically

They haven't looked into the widely-documented testing and de-
pantsing of these magnets and are 'experimenting' or using the
public to test the damn things

'Encouraging' doesn't support the '10% Guaranteed !!' advertised

They are demonstrably worthless, so why sell them in the first place ?
And various legislation already protects the consumer (money back,
unfit etc), this product is nothing special in that regard

Magnets that aren't returned don't necessarily mean the customer
was satisfied. And Repco and the supplier still have the money

and so on

==========

We do in fact get approached everyday with fuel saving devices as you can
imagine.
Most we reject as the suppliers are not prepared to back them and they are
too expensive.
This product we decided to give a go as it was a resonable price, easy to
fit, easily transferable and offered a full money back guarantee if the
customer was unhappy.
We tested it internally for a period before we took it on and the results
were encouraging.
With all this taken into account we felt the customer had enough protection
if they felt the results were not up to their expectations and if they were
then it would pay for it's self reasonably quickly.
The supplier is under no illusion that if our customers are unhappy with the
product we will withdraw it from the market.
So we will be monitoring this closely and I'm sure the future will give us a
clear indication on whether the product is a scam or not.

2007\07\16@110129 by Timothy J. Weber

face picon face
Jinx wrote:
> The reply from Repco below.

> The supplier is under no illusion that if our customers are unhappy with the
> product we will withdraw it from the market.

Hee hee!  That would indeed seem to be an illusion!
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org

2007\07\16@111851 by alan smith

picon face
Some are rather....interesting......
 
 But its all in the marketing.  Find someone who can sell sand in a desert, and your done.
 
 But, whats amazing to me, is the only thing that stuck out to me was the fact he bought this yacht...tought himself how to sail in a day...then went out.  Wow...he must be really smart.  I feel dumb just reading about him.  Or is it....im dumb for spending the time reading about him  :-)
 
 Sorry to make this short but I'm inventing this really cool thing that will prevent others from inventing stupid things....but shhhhh....I cant tell you how it works, but it does...amazing...

Tony Smith <spam_OUTajsmithTakeThisOuTspamrivernet.com.au> wrote:
 > > - the ABC is the national broadcaster in Oz, non-commercial,
{Quote hidden}

They're not particuarly bothered.

I did send them a 'I think this is bollocks' email earlier, and I expect to
get the same form reply back as per the previous times I pointed crap out.

The show is often a mixed bag of 'neat', 'eh?', 'duh', 'lame' & 'wtf?'. The
FFWD button gets a workout.

They do have some rather novel stuff at times,
'Move ya bastard' -
,
a new u-joint - ,
bandage thingy - ,
Blowfly sander -
Impact driver (neat!) -
etc.

Then there's:
A loo vent? - ,
Cat-proof fence? - ,
Mirrors? - ,
RFID? - ,
Pee target? - .

Now there's the stuff that looks ok at first glance, but afterwards it's a
case of, 'eh, that can't work', eg
. Lets feed the
tool exhaust back to the compressor inlet...

And then there's the outright frauds or the delusional, who should have been
filtered out beforehand. Jinx needs these:
.

Oh look, there's that magical (up to which includes 0) 11% fuel saving. 10%
would mean we just made it up, but 11%, no way matey, that's from testing.
It's the con-artists version of 99 cent pricing. Check the 'How it works'
page , vortex things & a big
wing! Woot! And highly technical drawing done by a 3-year-old in MS-Paint.
I'm convinced! Only losers do smoke tests in wind tunnels.

Jinx might want these too -
. "Dunno about cars
mate, but I know me spark plugs."

Add the carby vortex gizmo, and your car will run off the methane from a cow
farting downwind.

Yeah right - , a 9v
battery can protect an entire olympic pool. Maybe if you ran around
whacking the mozzies with it.

I'll give this guy
the benefit of the doubt since I'm feeling generous. It's more a wtf?
moment though.

Time to glue some crystals to the fridge seals, it gives 11% better cooling,
honest!

Tony

2007\07\16@113647 by David VanHorn

picon face
> > The supplier is under no illusion that if our customers are unhappy with the
> > product we will withdraw it from the market.
>
> Hee hee!  That would indeed seem to be an illusion!

So Repco dosen't care if it works or not, just wether people are
"happy with it"...
:-P

2007\07\16@121556 by Timothy J. Weber

face picon face
David VanHorn wrote:
>>> The supplier is under no illusion that if our customers are unhappy with the
>>> product we will withdraw it from the market.
>> Hee hee!  That would indeed seem to be an illusion!
>
> So Repco dosen't care if it works or not, just wether people are
> "happy with it"...
> :-P

Perhaps they do care, but if you read that statement carefully, it says
explicitly (though probably unintentionally) that they don't.

"If our customers are unhappy with the product we will withdraw it from
the market" is what you would like to hear.  But the supplier is "under
no illusion" that that is true.  :)
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org

2007\07\16@141523 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
David VanHorn wrote:

>>> The supplier is under no illusion that if our customers are unhappy
>>> with the product we will withdraw it from the market.
>>
>> Hee hee!  That would indeed seem to be an illusion!
>
> So Repco dosen't care if it works or not, just wether people are "happy
> with it"...
> :-P

Isn't that the way it should be? A retailer sure doesn't have the means
(and usually doesn't want to get into that) to test every product about
whether it performs under all conditions -- or under any condition.

So you can buy it and take it back if it doesn't work for you. Or you can
choose not to buy it if you think the chances are too slim or nonexistent.
Or it may work for one or the other, even if it is only to make them "happy
with it". (That's what engineering is all about, once you get to the bottom
of it, isn't it? :)

Gerhard

2007\07\16@143350 by David VanHorn

picon face
> > So Repco dosen't care if it works or not, just wether people are "happy
> > with it"...
> > :-P
>
> Isn't that the way it should be? A retailer sure doesn't have the means
> (and usually doesn't want to get into that) to test every product about
> whether it performs under all conditions -- or under any condition.

Ok, but when the retailer KNOWS that it's bullshit, that's different.
Cellular antenna patches, etc.

2007\07\16@190127 by Jinx

face picon face
> Ok, but when the retailer KNOWS that it's bullshit, that's different.
> Cellular antenna patches, etc.

That's mostly what I'm so, er, revved up about. If it was probably
any other product I'd not worry about it. 99.9999% of stuff for
sale does at least *try* to live up to the manufacturer's claims, and
you aren't giving the customer false expectations. A technique used
by mail-order companies with dodgy products is to sell at a cost
which makes them money but is not quite worth the customer
sending it back. "All that effort to get $20 back ? Nah, not worth
it, I'll just bin it and learn a lesson"

Money-back isn't good enough. You're wasting people's time and
there will always be people who don't ask for their money back.
Which, for this product, perpetuates the myth and encourages, and
funds, the scammers. And scammers is exactly what they are

Repco say "This product we decided to give a go as it was a
reasonable price". Price isn't really the point, although see above
re mail-order

I asked them if they got test results which flew in the face of all
the other tests around the world. No response, but you can tell
there's something wide-eyed-maybe-it-does-work-let's-give-it-
a-chance going on

2007\07\16@195042 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face

> > Ok, but when the retailer KNOWS that it's bullshit, that's
> different.
> > Cellular antenna patches, etc.
>
> That's mostly what I'm so, er, revved up about. If it was
> probably any other product I'd not worry about it. 99.9999%
> of stuff for sale does at least *try* to live up to the
> manufacturer's claims, and you aren't giving the customer
> false expectations. A technique used by mail-order companies
> with dodgy products is to sell at a cost which makes them
> money but is not quite worth the customer sending it back.
> "All that effort to get $20 back ? Nah, not worth it, I'll
> just bin it and learn a lesson"
>
> Money-back isn't good enough. You're wasting people's time
> and there will always be people who don't ask for their money back.
> Which, for this product, perpetuates the myth and encourages,
> and funds, the scammers. And scammers is exactly what they are


It could be argued (and I believe this, but won't spend the time arguing it)
that the people whose time and money are wasted, DEARLY NEEDED to have their
time and money wasted.

The logic is: Who has the money runs the show, a fool and his money are soon
parted, leave fools with their money and you end up with fools running the
show. A population of sheeple must begat a government of wolves. The gene
pool needs some chlorine. What doesn't kill me, makes me stronger.
Corporations will, by definition, sell crap as long as the consumers make
doing so profitable.

That isn't nice. It isn't "good" and it isn't "right"

It is, however, REAL.

Can you imagine having a government agency big enough, with enough funds,
with enough power, with enough accuracy and competence to prevent every
idiot out there from making a purchase that wasn't in his true best
interests? Better to train the sheeple to defend themselves. For once we try
to protect them from con artists, who will protect them from us?

The nice lady over in NZ or AU who was convinced the Nigerian bank would get
her money back from the 419'rs... If she only paid a small fee for the
investigation... How can you both protect her and keep her out of the nut
house?

I welcome the opportunity to learn from a consummate con artist. Teach me
what to look out for. Give me the experience of being ripped off so I know
what it feels like before I open my wallet the next time. Let me learn not
to buy a product that saves 11%. Or that has not been reviewed by my peers.
Or that isn't open source. Or that doesn't come from a web page with a
feedback system.

Real men get scammed and learn from it, then stop getting scammed. It's the
morons who screw up the world for the rest of us. Spam would stop on a dime
if people never purchased spamvertized products.

---
James (anyone want to buy an LED lighbulb?) Newton.

P.S. This philosophy should in no way reflect on the products sold by James
Newton's Massmind. They are NOT a rip off and lots of people will tell you
so. I have a good reputation and that is what anyone who is buying something
should be looking for. 100% positive feedback on eBay baby... Only the best.

2007\07\16@204432 by Jinx

face picon face
> It could be argued (and I believe this, but won't spend the time
> arguing it) that the people whose time and money are wasted,
> DEARLY NEEDED to have their time and money wasted

I don't disagree with that. However, if I'm in a position to help, I
will. And should. I haven't time for a crusade against every shoddy
product or claim of course. Letting people be conned is a double-
edged sword. Yes, they will learn. But also the perp has gained. It
would be much better if scammers were out of the market altogether.
You can't stop the really big stuff (murder etc) so there's no chance
at the other end of the scale. All you can do is advise and educate.
As you mention with the 419 scam, all the warnings in the world
don't sink in with some people

2007\07\16@220540 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
Jinx Sent: 2007 Jul 16, Mon 17:44
>
> > It could be argued (and I believe this, but won't spend the time
> > arguing it) that the people whose time and money are wasted, DEARLY
> > NEEDED to have their time and money wasted
>
> I don't disagree with that. However, if I'm in a position to
> help, I will.

You're a good dude Chuck.

---
James.


2007\07\16@224754 by Jinx

face picon face
> > I don't disagree with that. However, if I'm in a position to
> > help, I will.
>
> You're a good dude Chuck.

Against my better judgement, often. I actually wondered a couple
of weeks ago whether the **** that some people are turning me
into might get more "rewards" out of life. They seem to be doing
OK as ***s themselves. But I can't fight my nature and won't
become that person. What I can do is be more selective about
who gets help and try, by omission (ie withhold help etc), to make
some people's lives a little interesting/uncomfortable/difficult. A
recent experience has taught me, finally, that, given the chance,
anyone can and will flip on you. I'm not half as trusting as I was
last month. Which is sad, but I will direct mis-trust appropriately

2007\07\16@235628 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> A recent experience has taught me, finally, that, given the chance,
> anyone can and will flip on you.

What did I do ?

:-) (I hope)


           Russell




2007\07\17@003516 by Jinx

face picon face
> > A recent experience has taught me, finally, that, given the chance,
> > anyone can and will flip on you.
>
> What did I do ?

I think you would be one of the people I could trust. I've never
known you to be dishonest or devious

Just going back to sham products for a moment, just listening to
an interview on the radio with a researcher who wants some sort
of social policy (regulation, counselling, etc) put in place regarding
0900 psychic hot lines

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10451994

$4.99/min for a (many expletives deleted) to tell you whether the
old man is cheating on you ?

As mentioned in the interview, any faulty product you can send back
for a refund. 'psychic advice' is so nebulous it's almost  impossible to
get a case together. But then it seems the people who ring these things
are quite happy being told what to feel and believe anyway

2007\07\17@074926 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> For once we try to protect them from con artists, who will protect them
> from us?

Or, given that we might have some success, who will protect us from them?
:)

> It's the morons who screw up the world for the rest of us. Spam would
> stop on a dime if people never purchased spamvertized products.

I'm not so positive on this. Just as there are enough people to buy into
scams, there are enough people who think that scams that don't work still
work :)

Gerhard

2007\07\17@075506 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Jinx wrote:

>> It could be argued (and I believe this, but won't spend the time
>> arguing it) that the people whose time and money are wasted,
>> DEARLY NEEDED to have their time and money wasted
>
> I don't disagree with that. However, if I'm in a position to help, I
> will. And should. I haven't time for a crusade against every shoddy
> product or claim of course. Letting people be conned is a double-
> edged sword. Yes, they will learn. But also the perp has gained. It
> would be much better if scammers were out of the market altogether.

How about a course at the local library "How to read advertisements",
sponsored by the local commerce chamber? :)

Teaching the basics like "up to <anything>" includes 0, asking the basic
questions like "why" and "how" (if only to oneself), etc...

Gerhard

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