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'[EE]:Trembler/tilt switch'
2005\05\27@074725 by Jinx

face picon face
> Have a look at the vibration sensors from Signal Quest ( P/N SQ-SEN-
> 003P / 3PS / 3PS-XL)  http://www.signalquest.com/
>
> They're basicaly a ball in cage design, but all the parts are gold plated
> and sealed. I used some in another project - my only complaint would
> have to be price, about $5 US ea in low quantities. But I'm sure they'd
> send a few samples if you told them what you're doing

Good food for thought Denny, thanks.

Forgive me if I've mis-read the pdf,

www.signalquest.com/SQ-SEN-003P%20-3PS%20-3PS-XL%20Omnidirectional%20
Tilt%20and%20Vibration%20Sensor%20Datasheet%20and%20App%20Notes_2005-01-24.p
df

but don't these suffer from the same problem as a mercury switch ? Say
the cylinder is mounted horizontally in the veehickle. If it's then parked
on an angle (hill, verge etc) the angle could be great enough for the weight
of the ball to hold it steady and not respond to small tampering vibrations
?

A couple of other points - I've less than 3 weeks to get this marketable at
a sale price of NZ$40-$50. Wish I had more time. Really wish I had more.
Basically anything not OTS is out, the lead times are just too long

I'm wondering what I could do with something springy ............

2005\05\27@083100 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face
mass + spring mounted to a linear POT
poor mans acceleromiter
take readings when car is armed for the "parking on a hill" effect
size of mass + spring should get over the sliding friction of the pot
not for production as it'll break pdq general driving wearing the pot out
one of those at 45 deg to the cars direction of motion
pick up side impacts and "towing" activities
(thaught for a "feature" calibrate it such that if it picks up a reading its
>20 degrees for a sustained period (ie being towed) the alarm cuts off)

PIC with ADC and look for a movement outside the noise
perhaps a fairly high speed sample loop looking for a movement of the ADC
value over say a 5 point moving average as a poor mans low pass filter for
the high speed noise, then the low passed movement is the movement of the
car, if that breaks some "magic number" then its set off.

it'll be finiky and but probbly "good enough" that your average assessor
will not to see all the flaws straight off.
question you gotta ask is what level of acceleration is too much

> {Original Message removed}

2005\05\27@084104 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>but don't these suffer from the same problem as a mercury switch ?
>Say the cylinder is mounted horizontally in the veehickle. If it's
>then parked on an angle (hill, verge etc) the angle could be great
>enough for the weight of the ball to hold it steady and not respond
>to small tampering vibrations ?

Guess you are looking to make your own of this style of sensor (for the
cost/time reasons already given)

I would look at having the sensor on a platform that was self levelling (a
damped gimbal mount style of thing) with probably a dish of oil to do the
damping, on a ball solidly mounted on the bottom of the gimbal. Suspect you
could get a 2-5 second damping of movement that would still transmit any
rapid movement to the detection ball, especially if the detection ball
suspension is solidly attached to the car.

2005\05\27@085250 by Jinx

face picon face

> mass + spring mounted to a linear POT
> poor mans acceleromiter

That's something to think about. What you need is a variable that's
more durable than a pot

There's a limit to how far the vehicle will be leaned over when parked,
but it could be maybe 30-40 degrees. Possibly a dual pendulum approach.
The whole unit is mounted loosely above its COG in a two axes gimbal,
so it would be self-levelling. The actual sensor is inside the levelled unit

2005\05\27@090508 by Dave Lag

picon face
If you use homemade ring+contact sensors- they are cheap so use a number
of them in different planes. Pick(PIC?) the one not shorted when arming.
D

{Quote hidden}

2005\05\27@092320 by Jinx

face picon face

> If you use homemade ring+contact sensors- they are cheap so use a number
> of them in different planes. Pick(PIC?) the one not shorted when arming.
> D

Nice one

2005\05\27@094734 by Mike Hord

picon face
> If you use homemade ring+contact sensors- they are cheap so use a number
> of them in different planes. Pick(PIC?) the one not shorted when arming.
> D

A varaition on this would be a pendulum with a magnet that swings past an
array of linear Hall effect sensors.  At arming time, one of those sensors will
have a particularly high reading.  Any (significant) variation from that reading
indicates motion.

I seem to recall a Circuit Cellar article about a joystick which used that as
its actuating mechanism, instead of a noisy pot.

Mike H.

2005\05\27@094800 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>> mass + spring mounted to a linear POT
>> poor mans acceleromiter
>
>That's something to think about. What you need is a variable that's
>more durable than a pot

How about an old style air di-electric tuning capacitor with a reasonable
weight on a swing arm? Two of these, one forward/backward, and one sideways.
When the alarm is set, then keep the current average (after noise reduction)
as the stable state.

2005\05\27@103700 by Denny Esterline

picon face
> www.signalquest.com/SQ-SEN-003P%20-3PS%20-3PS-XL%20Omnidirectional%20
> Tilt%20and%20Vibration%20Sensor%20Datasheet%20and%20App%20Notes_2005-01-24.p
> df
>
> but don't these suffer from the same problem as a mercury switch ? Say
> the cylinder is mounted horizontally in the veehickle. If it's then parked
> on an angle (hill, verge etc) the angle could be great enough for the weight
> of the ball to hold it steady and not respond to small tampering vibrations
> ?
>
> A couple of other points - I've less than 3 weeks to get this marketable at
> a sale price of NZ$40-$50. Wish I had more time. Really wish I had more.
> Basically anything not OTS is out, the lead times are just too long
>
> I'm wondering what I could do with something springy ............
>

Clarify something for me, do you actualy have to "build" these, or is
it just a exercise in design? In which case lead times should be less
relevant. But either way if you're interested, give them a call. I
recieved modest quantities ~100 in a FedEx envelope next day.

As to the alignment issues, in practice the ball is very sensitive to
motion and vibration. My application hooked it to a interupt on change
pin on a 16F675 and flashed some LEDs. Total project weighs about 2Kg
and in practice it triggers if you walk next to the table it's on -
quite sensitive. The app notes sugggest some useful digital filtering
techniques to attain differing levels of sensitivity. And ISTR one of
the app notes specificaly described an automotive alarm.

-Denny

2005\05\27@124550 by Peter

picon face

Jake Anderson has a point. A spring + mass system surrounded by a ring
will not touch the ring at rest even if not held vertical but will
likely develop enough amplitude to touch it when moved from rest.

Peter

2005\05\27@125236 by David Minkler

flavicon
face
Jinx,

Not well worked out:

If a homemade ring-contact sensor works with the right sensitivity when
the vehicle is level, perhaps it would be possible to hang or float both
components but give them a different pendulum period by making one much
longer than the other.  This wouldn't detect slow changes in tilt but
would detect bumps and accelerations.  Probably not much more than
double the cost of the basic ring wire sensor and could be homemade.  
Think of a bell.

Dave

Jinx wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2005\05\27@132642 by Dwayne Reid

flavicon
face
At 05:46 AM 5/27/2005, Jinx wrote:
> > Have a look at the vibration sensors from Signal Quest ( P/N SQ-SEN-
> > 003P / 3PS / 3PS-XL)  http://www.signalquest.com/
> >
> > They're basicaly a ball in cage design, but all the parts are gold plated
> > and sealed. I used some in another project - my only complaint would
> > have to be price, about $5 US ea in low quantities. But I'm sure they'd
> > send a few samples if you told them what you're doing
>
>Forgive me if I've mis-read the pdf,
>but don't these suffer from the same problem as a mercury switch ? Say
>the cylinder is mounted horizontally in the veehickle. If it's then parked
>on an angle (hill, verge etc) the angle could be great enough for the weight
>of the ball to hold it steady and not respond to small tampering vibrations?

We've got similar sensors from the same company and they seem reliable and
sensitive over a very large range of angles.  I'm assuming that there will
be at least one orientation where they do not work but I did not find it
while I was playing with them.

They make a nice product but I have no idea of pricing.  The data sheet
does specify "Lowest cost sensor of its kind", though.

Also mentioned in the data sheet: "No signal conditioning required to
interface to a microcontroller".

dwayne

--
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Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
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2005\05\29@033546 by Jinx

face picon face
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I think I've found an arrangement that will work well. Even a few
quick tests with OTS parts are encouraging

Ball-bearing + ping pong ball + UGN3503 + magnet

Depending on exact orientation, it'll put out anything from a few
mV to >100mV AC on the mid-Vcc bias. Easily detectable with
an ADC. I think it would be quite difficult to move a vehicle without
disturbing this sensor. Me happy




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2005\05\29@095720 by Dennis Crawley

flavicon
face
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Hi,
how about this. I think of 4 of this units connected together "in cross".
The number of sensors depends on the accuracy you need.
I'm not expert with paintbrush, but you'll figure out the rest.

Cheers,
Dennis.



Jinx <.....joecolquittKILLspamspam@spam@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>> Have a look at the vibration sensors from Signal Quest ( P/N SQ-SEN-
>> 003P / 3PS / 3PS-XL)  http://www.signalquest.com/
>><snip>




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2005\05\29@100121 by Bradysmall

flavicon
face
tried these?

http://www.nkkswitches.com/switchcategory.asp?S3=16




{Quote hidden}

2005\05\30@030301 by Jinx

face picon face
> how about this. I think of 4 of this units connected together "in cross".

Thank Dennis, but the idea I posted is ideal for this application. Cheap,
repeatable and sensitive. Try it for yourself if you've got the balls


2005\05\30@070528 by Dennis Crawley

flavicon
face
Jinx <joecolquittspamspam_OUTclear.net.nz> wrote:
>> how about this. I think of 4 of this units connected together "in
>> cross".
>
> Thank Dennis, but the idea I posted is ideal for this application.
> Cheap, repeatable and sensitive. Try it for yourself if you've got
> the balls
Let ladies decide.


               
___________________________________ A tu celular ¿no le falta algo? Usá Yahoo! Messenger y Correo Yahoo! en tu teléfono celular. Más información en http://movil.yahoo.com.a

2005\05\30@083456 by Jinx

face picon face
> > Thank Dennis, but the idea I posted is ideal for this application.
> > Cheap, repeatable and sensitive. Try it for yourself if you've got
> > the balls
>
> Let ladies decide.

I meant.......if one of them's big, plastic and empty and the other's
a little metal one.......

Good luck finding someone into exotic prosthetics

2005\05\31@145059 by David Minkler

flavicon
face
Looks good.  How well does it work if the vehicle is tilted when the
alarm is armed?

Dave

Jinx wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2005\05\31@171737 by Jinx

face picon face
> >Ball-bearing + ping pong ball + UGN3503 + magnet

> Looks good.  How well does it work if the vehicle is tilted when the
> alarm is armed?

So far so good. I'm looking at various ball bearing sizes to find what the
optimum size is. Too small and it will be attracted too much to the magnet
and not wobble enough with small movements. Big-ish (eg 8mm) seems to
be better. With any size, there's very little friction between the steel and
the celluloid, so magnetic attraction is mostly the damping factor. My only
concern would be the life-time of a celluloid ping pong ball, both due to
material break-down and the bashing it's going to get from a ball bearing,
but almost any other small plastic ball with a smooth regular inside surface
will do. I've added an op amp for AC gain and a little HF noise reduction.
The UGN3503 output  is very stable so it can be cranked up with gain
and changes detected with a narrow adjustable 12F675 ADC window

2005\05\31@175246 by Bradley Ferguson

picon face
On 5/31/05, Jinx <@spam@joecolquittKILLspamspamclear.net.nz> wrote:
> > >Ball-bearing + ping pong ball + UGN3503 + magnet
>
> > Looks good.  How well does it work if the vehicle is tilted when the
> > alarm is armed?
>
> So far so good. I'm looking at various ball bearing sizes to find what the
> optimum size is. Too small and it will be attracted too much to the magnet
> and not wobble enough with small movements. Big-ish (eg 8mm) seems to
> be better. With any size, there's very little friction between the steel and
> the celluloid, so magnetic attraction is mostly the damping factor. My only
> concern would be the life-time of a celluloid ping pong ball, both due to
> material break-down and the bashing it's going to get from a ball bearing,
> but almost any other small plastic ball with a smooth regular inside surface
> will do. I've added an op amp for AC gain and a little HF noise reduction.
> The UGN3503 output  is very stable so it can be cranked up with gain
> and changes detected with a narrow adjustable 12F675 ADC window

The ball bearing could be damped with a fluid, which would also
prevent damage to the ping-pong ball.  I would think silicone oil,
which is available in different viscosities, might be a good choice;
although, there may be material incompatibilities, the damping will
change with temperature, and it's messy.

I like this design, though.  And with the addition of more sensors you
could know the tilt in multiple directions.  It would be an
interesting project, but at some point an accelerometer seems better
suited cost and size-wise.  It would be interesting to compare the two
methods side-by-side, though.

Bradley

2005\05\31@182004 by Jinx

face picon face
> The ball bearing could be damped with a fluid, which would also
> prevent damage to the ping-pong ball

As well as your own reservations, damping would, er, do exactly
that, and you'd lose the very small movements that are a requirement
of the project. The fact that a ball bearing moves so easily on the
inside of the ball is a major plus

> I like this design, though

Me too - it was just one of those serendipity things. I was channel
surfing and saw a few seconds of table tennis on ESPN and a light
bulb lit up

> And with the addition of more sensors you could know the tilt in
> multiple directions.  It would be an interesting project, but at some
> point an accelerometer seems better suited cost and size-wise.  It
> would be interesting to compare the two methods side-by-side, though

I would like to compare the two, but the immediate push was to get
something, anything, ready this week. Now that there's a prototype
working, which fortunately took surprisingly little time, the pressure's
off a little and I can now shop around and experiment with other
devices, maybe sort out a Plan A and a Plan B

2005\05\31@192855 by Jinx

face picon face
> interesting project, but at some point an accelerometer seems better
> suited cost and size-wise.  It would be interesting to compare the two
> methods side-by-side, though.

Well, I did some ringing around this morning. Could possibly do a little
better than this but can't say if it's worth it until I get a sample of each

Freescale MMA7260Q, NZ$17.78, MOQ 75 (choke splutter)

Analog Devices ADXL202JE, NZ$18.45, MOQ 6

The prototype's UGN3503 is only $2

Not saying an accelerometer couldn't be used, wouldn't be ultimately
better, and probably absorbable into the retail cost, but if the UGN3503
idea can be tweaked for optimum performance it should be adequate



'[EE]:Trembler/tilt switch'
2005\06\01@000412 by Josh Koffman
face picon face
On 5/31/05, Jinx <KILLspamjoecolquittKILLspamspamclear.net.nz> wrote:
> > I like this design, though
>
> Me too - it was just one of those serendipity things. I was channel
> surfing and saw a few seconds of table tennis on ESPN and a light
> bulb lit up

Joe, how are you getting the ball bearing inside the ping pong ball?

Inquiring minds....

:)

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

2005\06\01@010744 by Jinx

face picon face
part 1 903 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit)

> > Me too - it was just one of those serendipity things. I was channel
> > surfing and saw a few seconds of table tennis on ESPN and a light
> > bulb lit up
>
> Joe, how are you getting the ball bearing inside the ping pong ball?
>
> Inquiring minds....

Well, after I cut the ping pong ball in half it's a struggle but I manage
;-)

One thing I found - if you get the magnet pole exactly lined up with the
UGN3503 sweet spot, whoo smokey it's sensitive. +/- 50mV AC o/p
when the b-b wobbles barely 1mm, +200mV -400mV with a good
shove, using a TLC271 with gain of  ~7. I think this really is a good
tremble switch. Magnet is a 5mm x 5mm x 1mm piece of strong stuff
from an HDD voice coil actuator (er, used !!). It's epoxied on edge,
which seems to concentrate the flux without excessively attracting the
b-b and stopping it wobbling



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2005\06\01@044614 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I would like to compare the two, but the immediate push was
>to get something, anything, ready this week. Now that there's
>a prototype working, which fortunately took surprisingly
>little time, the pressure's off a little and I can now shop
>around and experiment with other devices, maybe sort out a
>Plan A and a Plan B

I think the accelerometer is the "commercial" way to go to get something
rugged. But the ping pong ball is ideal for the nature of the experiment.

However, Jinx, to do a "production" version, think about using the "egg"
that Kinder Surprise toys come in. The two halves open up, slip the ball
bearing in, and clip back together. Don't know how you opened the ping pong
ball, but I see potential problems sealing it again so you do not loose the
ball bearing. These may help that scenario.

2005\06\01@052716 by Jinx

face picon face
> bearing in, and clip back together. Don't know how you opened the
> ping pong ball

Scalpel

> but I see potential problems sealing it again so you do not loose the
> ball bearing. These may help that scenario.

I could epoxy or silicone a lid on it but the box I have in mind would
cover the top anyway. Even slightly less than 1/2 height is too high.
The b-b won't touch the lid until the whole thing is tipped over at > 70
degrees, which is not how one would park a vehicle. On purpose. I
can work out the exact height with trig or a scale diagram

2005\06\01@055247 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>The b-b won't touch the lid until the whole thing is tipped over
>at > 70 degrees, which is not how one would park a vehicle.

I wasn't thinking of that so much ;))

AIUI you need to build a number of them, and sell at a profit, so I was
envisaging what would happen if the package is tipped upside down when being
carried home. I did not see your photos until after I had sent that, so you
may avoid the problem I foresee by mounting the two PCBs on spacers.

2005\06\01@092646 by Bill & Pookie

picon face
Dampen the ping pong ball, then when on unleveled ground, the system would
slowly orientate itself.

Bill

{Original Message removed}

2005\06\01@101600 by Peter

picon face
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>>> Me too - it was just one of those serendipity things. I was channel
>>> surfing and saw a few seconds of table tennis on ESPN and a light
>>> bulb lit up
>>
>> Joe, how are you getting the ball bearing inside the ping pong ball?
>>
>> Inquiring minds....
>
> Well, after I cut the ping pong ball in half it's a struggle but I manage
> ;-)
>
> One thing I found - if you get the magnet pole exactly lined up with the
> UGN3503 sweet spot, whoo smokey it's sensitive. +/- 50mV AC o/p
> when the b-b wobbles barely 1mm, +200mV -400mV with a good
> shove, using a TLC271 with gain of  ~7. I think this really is a good
> tremble switch. Magnet is a 5mm x 5mm x 1mm piece of strong stuff
> from an HDD voice coil actuator (er, used !!). It's epoxied on edge,
> which seems to concentrate the flux without excessively attracting the
> b-b and stopping it wobbling

Is the tremble switch good enough to sense cats jumping on the car,
people bumping it in passing, and loud diesel engines, as is the norm in
the industry ? ;-)

Peter

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2005\06\01@110531 by Dave Lag

picon face
Oh yes, and make sure it cycles through every one of it's unique sounds
at least three times

Fess up - you wanted a two unit per ping pong ball yield
;)

Peter wrote:
>>> Joe, how are you getting the ball bearing inside the ping pong ball?
>>>
>>> Inquiring minds....
...........

>> Well, after I cut the ping pong ball in half it's a struggle but I manage
>> ;-)

> Is the tremble switch good enough to sense cats jumping on the car,
> people bumping it in passing, and loud diesel engines, as is the norm in
> the industry ? ;-)
>
> Peter

2005\06\01@111046 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Is the tremble switch good enough to sense cats jumping on the car,
> people bumping it in passing, and loud diesel engines, as is the
> norm in
> the industry ? ;-)

A car next to mine growled at my car the other day when the alarm on
mine emitted it's typical antisocial beeps during unlocking.

With a bit of care one could probably arrange a bout of "fatal
embrace' with two cars sitting growling at each other alternately,
with perhaps the odd bout of 5 minutes of siren sounding every now and
then.

Met a man tonight whose newish car had stalled with a deadish battery
and wouldn't restart. It sat partially blocking a main road at night
with its alarm sounding in slowly descending tones as it drained the
last of the battery's life blood - no doubt to remind him how annoying
modern technology can be on occasion.


           RM


2005\06\01@113619 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>A car next to mine growled at my car the other day when
>the alarm on mine emitted it's typical antisocial beeps
>during unlocking.

Sure it was the alarm that set it growling? I was getting out of my car one
evening at the local Golden Arches and some youngsters car in the next space
made menacing noises at me to tell me to stay away. So I made sure I annoyed
said young person by taking my time digging in the back door, back to the
drivers door, back and forth a bit more etc, but didn't get anyone coming to
see what I was up to. Guess they get used to it, and it loses its effect.
;))

2005\06\01@113814 by Bradley Ferguson

picon face
On 5/31/05, Jinx <RemoveMEjoecolquittTakeThisOuTspamclear.net.nz> wrote:
> > interesting project, but at some point an accelerometer seems better
> > suited cost and size-wise.  It would be interesting to compare the two
> > methods side-by-side, though.
>
> Well, I did some ringing around this morning. Could possibly do a little
> better than this but can't say if it's worth it until I get a sample of each
>
> Freescale MMA7260Q, NZ$17.78, MOQ 75 (choke splutter)
>
> Analog Devices ADXL202JE, NZ$18.45, MOQ 6
>
> The prototype's UGN3503 is only $2
>
> Not saying an accelerometer couldn't be used, wouldn't be ultimately
> better, and probably absorbable into the retail cost, but if the UGN3503
> idea can be tweaked for optimum performance it should be adequate

Memsic MXA2500GL is $8.90 buying single pieces through the
manufacturer's website.  It does not measure static acceleration
(e.g., gravity), but that isn't necessary for your application.
http://www.memsic.com/memsic/products/product.asp?prodid=56

You have to figure the time involved in cutting your ping-pong ball
and the failure rate and the insurance claims for when you slip and
cut your finger to really compare cost. :-)

Bradley

2005\06\01@123237 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>You have to figure the time involved in cutting your ping-pong
>ball and the failure rate and the insurance claims for when
>you slip and cut your finger to really compare cost. :-)

Part of the reason to change to a Kinder Surprise half egg ;))

Especially when having school children doing the work - oh that's right, not
a problem in NZ, there is ACC.

Alan (who spent 3 months on ACC after mangling fingers in bench saw).

2005\06\01@160136 by Jinx

face picon face
> Is the tremble switch good enough to sense cats jumping on the
> car, people bumping it in passing, and loud diesel engines, as is
> the norm in the industry ? ;-)

Will find out at the w/e. As long as goes off when there's a stealin'
going on that's all that matters

Who's Norm ?

2005\06\01@165023 by David Minkler

flavicon
face
Norm is the guy with the loud diesel.

Jinx wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2005\06\02@134508 by Peter

picon face


On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Jinx wrote:

>> Is the tremble switch good enough to sense cats jumping on the
>> car, people bumping it in passing, and loud diesel engines, as is
>> the norm in the industry ? ;-)
>
> Will find out at the w/e. As long as goes off when there's a stealin'
> going on that's all that matters
>
> Who's Norm ?

Norm is the guy whom all the people they lock up in the padded cells
claim they don't know.

Peter

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