Searching \ for '[EE]:Soldering piezos' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/index.htm?key=soldering+piezos
Search entire site for: 'Soldering piezos'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[EE]:Soldering piezos'
2001\07\18@061832 by Jinx

face picon face
I've got a few piezo discs to rework and need to find the best
way to attach a wire to the ceramic centre. The brass outer
ring is OK but solder (60:40 5-core) won't stick to the ceramic.
Any suggestions ? I could stick the wire down with aluminium
tape or silcone but that's not an ohmic bond and I expect it
would fail pretty quickly

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\18@062249 by Reelf Monsees

flavicon
face
Maybe you could try 'liquid silver' (comes from a small bottle) and
is mainly used to repair PCBs and so on. Solder sticks to it.
regards,
  Reelf

Jinx schrieb:
{Quote hidden}

-- SyWiTec *  Systeme für Wissenschaft und Technik
            Bamberg & Monsees GbR
        Steindamm 22 * D-28719 Bremen
  Fon +49-421-646775 * Fax +49-421-646785
            http://www.sywitec.de/

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\18@072317 by Jinx

face picon face
> Maybe you could try 'liquid silver' (comes from a small bottle)
> and is mainly used to repair PCBs and so on. Solder sticks
> to it.
> regards,
> Reelf

Thanks, I haven't got any myself but I know someone who has.
The other way that might work is how it's done in watches. A
small gold-plated prong pushes on the ceramic

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\18@075250 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Jinx wrote:
>
> I've got a few piezo discs to rework and need to find the best
> way to attach a wire to the ceramic centre. The brass outer
> ring is OK but solder (60:40 5-core) won't stick to the ceramic.
> Any suggestions ? I could stick the wire down with aluminium
> tape or silcone but that's not an ohmic bond and I expect it
> would fail pretty quickly


I've normally scratched up the surface and soldered them.
Why is there no metal coating on the middle of the disc?
Sounds pretty unusual to me. :o)
-Roman

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\18@082825 by Jinx

face picon face
> I've normally scratched up the surface and soldered them.
> Why is there no metal coating on the middle of the disc?
> Sounds pretty unusual to me. :o)
> -Roman

No metal. I've noticed the same thing on the piezos on ultra-
sonic tanks. The wires to those are held down with what looks
like epoxy. Under the epoxy is some kind of metal joint to the
ceramic that melts with an iron, but once melted is difficult
to remake. I'm working with small audio beepers on this little
job, not U-S piezos, desoldering a U-S was a mistake I made
once. (un)fortunately that unit was so old and decrepit and had
a fatal fault with a coil that was enough to write it off anyway so
I didn't have to re-attach the U-S wire

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\18@091628 by Douglas Butler

flavicon
face
Piezos are a bulk ceramic with metal electrodes plated on.  The ceramic
is polarized through those electrodes.  Once the plating is gone it is
going to be very hard to connect to them.
The plating may be silver or aluminum.  If it is aluminum you can make
contact by a spring contact or conductive epoxy.  You can also use a
conductive ink pen though the result is not as durable and needs some
other glue for physical strength.
If the plating is silver you can solder to it.  You want "silver
bearing" solder.  This is mostly tin/lead with about 2% silver.  It is
not "silver solder" which takes too much heat.  Regular tin/lead solder
will dissolve the silver off the ceramic.  Sliver bearing solder is
already saturated with silver so it doesn't steal silver from the
ceramic.
You want to minimize heating of the ceramic as that depolarizes it.
Make sure everything is clean and work quickly with a hot iron.  Also
the piezo will develop some voltage as it gets hot.  On large disks this
can be enough to shock you into dropping your soldering iron in your
lap, so be careful.

Sherpa Doug

> {Original Message removed}

2001\07\18@112604 by mike

flavicon
face
On Wed, 18 Jul 2001 22:16:10 +1200, you wrote:

>I've got a few piezo discs to rework and need to find the best
>way to attach a wire to the ceramic centre. The brass outer
>ring is OK but solder (60:40 5-core) won't stick to the ceramic.
>Any suggestions ? I could stick the wire down with aluminium
>tape or silcone but that's not an ohmic bond and I expect it
>would fail pretty quickly
Use a low-melting point solder - this usually contains 2% silver. You
need to use great care to avoid damaging the metallisation. Some
liquid flux will also help.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\18@170532 by Jinx

face picon face
Thanks for suggestions and info re silver solder. I'm
recycling 25mm piezos out of old birthday/xmas/gift
cards as feedback sounders in a PIC keyboard thingy.
I don't have any silver solder so a metal prong will be
the go

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\19@023751 by Vasile Surducan

flavicon
face
On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, Jinx wrote:

> > I've normally scratched up the surface and soldered them.
> > Why is there no metal coating on the middle of the disc?
> > Sounds pretty unusual to me. :o)
> > -Roman
>
> No metal. I've noticed the same thing on the piezos on ultra-
> sonic tanks.

Joe, if you'll use it for ultrasonic generators you'll have no chance with
silver paste ( btw there are many types of silver paste, with low or high
temperature solidifications ) we use here for this sort of transducer a
mechanical case which asure electrical connection too.
High temperature silver paste have a better mechanical resistence but you
must not exceed the Curie temperature point when you heat it, else you'll
must repolarised again the ceramic for piezoelectric propriety.
BTW any sort of piezo like this is a little pyroelectric too...

Cheers, vasile

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email spam_OUTlistservTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2001\07\19@040535 by Jinx

face picon face
> > > I've normally scratched up the surface and soldered them.
> > > Why is there no metal coating on the middle of the disc?
> > > Sounds pretty unusual to me. :o)
> > > -Roman
> >
> > No metal. I've noticed the same thing on the piezos on ultra-
> > sonic tanks.
>
> Joe, if you'll use it for ultrasonic generators you'll have no chance
> with silver paste

Hi Vasile. The U-S tank was just an example, but thanks for
the tip about using a mechanical connection. I expect I'll see
another tank sooner or later

There's definitely no silver backing on these (well, most of
them). It might be aluminium or just plain ceramic that had
a mechanical prong connection

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email .....listservKILLspamspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2001\07\19@091556 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Jinx wrote:

> There's definitely no silver backing on these (well, most of
> them). It might be aluminium or just plain ceramic that had
> a mechanical prong connection


Hi Jinx, since I know you weld and are open
to quirky ideas, how about "metalising" the
ceramic surface by vaporising a copper wire
close to it? Like the inside of a badly blown
fuse, if you severely over-current a copper
wire it gives a very nice copper film on anything
near it.

Maybe try cleaning the ceramic surface, lay
a copper wire near it and attach it to the
welder? I've been itching to try something
like this, but had nothing to "metalise"...
:o)
-Roman

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email listservspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2001\07\19@120636 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> Hi Jinx, since I know you weld and are open
> to quirky ideas, how about "metalising" the
> ceramic surface by vaporising a copper wire
> close to it? Like the inside of a badly blown
> fuse, if you severely over-current a copper
> wire it gives a very nice copper film on anything
> near it.

Wouldn't the copper oxidize rapidly as a high temperature vapor?  Aluminum
deposition for optical mirrors is done in a similar way, but in a vacuum.
That also helps with coverage.


********************************************************************
Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, .....olinKILLspamspam.....embedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email EraseMElistservspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2001\07\19@121907 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
> > Hi Jinx, since I know you weld and are open
> > to quirky ideas, how about "metalising" the
> > ceramic surface by vaporising a copper wire
> > close to it? Like the inside of a badly blown
> > fuse, if you severely over-current a copper
> > wire it gives a very nice copper film on anything
> > near it.
>
> Wouldn't the copper oxidize rapidly as a high temperature vapor?  Aluminum
> deposition for optical mirrors is done in a similar way, but in a vacuum.
> That also helps with coverage.


OK, so suggest a solution. Wouldn't the copper
be deposited in a thick enough film to allow
soldering? What about using a number of "flashes"
or maybe just tinning the copper before it oxidises?

I don't think he needs a precision film, just a
way to solder to a ceramic object without heating
it too much. I've used that silver paint and don't
like that idea, it's "powdery" and very weak and
doesn't stick that well.
-Roman

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email listservspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2001\07\19@125400 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
Roman wrote:
>Olin Lathrop wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Jinx, since I know you weld and are open
>> > to quirky ideas, how about "metalising" the
>> > ceramic surface by vaporising a copper wire
>> > close to it? Like the inside of a badly blown
>> > fuse, if you severely over-current a copper
>> > wire it gives a very nice copper film on anything
>> > near it.
>>
>> Wouldn't the copper oxidize rapidly as a high temperature vapor?  Aluminum
>> deposition for optical mirrors is done in a similar way, but in a vacuum.
>> That also helps with coverage.
>
>
>OK, so suggest a solution. Wouldn't the copper
>be deposited in a thick enough film to allow
>soldering? What about using a number of "flashes"
>or maybe just tinning the copper before it oxidises?
........


Unless Captain Jinx has a million of these, it might just be
better to scrub the mission, and get some already plated.

[I favor putting several 1000 end-to-end - back to belly - in
a big series arrangement like a battery, wiring the top and
bottom ends together, and hitting it with his acetylene torch,
to generate one big surge that vaporizes the entire bundle].

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email @spam@listservKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2001\07\19@173530 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> > Wouldn't the copper oxidize rapidly as a high temperature vapor?
Aluminum
> > deposition for optical mirrors is done in a similar way, but in a
vacuum.
> > That also helps with coverage.
>
> OK, so suggest a solution.

I don't have one.  I'm only causing trouble, not solving it ;-)  It might be
interesting to try it in a vacuum chamber if you have access to one.  I know
this works with alumnimum, but don't know what issues there might be with
copper.

> Wouldn't the copper
> be deposited in a thick enough film to allow
> soldering? What about using a number of "flashes"
> or maybe just tinning the copper before it oxidises?

I was thinking the hot copper vapor might oxidize in the air before it got
deposited, but again, I don't know.  If it did oxidize, you couldn't solder
to it and it wouldn't be a conductive layer anyway.  If vacuum is
impractical, how about inside a plastic bag filled with nitrogen or carbon
dioxide?


********************************************************************
Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, KILLspamolinKILLspamspamembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2001\07\20@014151 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
Jinx, use a thermostated iron, turn the temp way down (240C), put solder
on the wire and then tack it on the silver side of the piezo while heating
only the wire and the tiny solder bead on it. This takes some practice but
it works.

Peter

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonespammitvma.mit.edu


2001\07\20@022217 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
Jinx, power ultrasonic discs are always attached in a press type of mount,
usually two sandwiching a donut copper electrode the other wire being the
chassis and the bolt that goes through the assembly (w/o touching the
middle donut).

I don't know what ultrasonics you tried to desolder but in general when
soldering directly on devices turn the iron thermostat way down and
increase slowly until solder just tacks. Some ceramics are destroyed by
local heating and could shatter or crack. They need preheating in a oven
before soldering.

Peter

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
TakeThisOuTpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu


2001\07\20@091321 by Jinx

face picon face
> I was thinking the hot copper vapor might oxidize in the air
> before it got deposited, but again, I don't know.  If it did oxidize,
> you couldn't solder to it and it wouldn't be a conductive layer
> anyway.  If vacuum is impractical, how about inside a plastic
> bag filled with nitrogen or carbon dioxide?

A white hot oxy-acetylene flame is a very reactive environment
and any metal vapours coming off would be oxides or other
compounds from the carburising effect of unburnt acetylene. For
example, when burning galvanising off, the zinc will never re-
deposit as metal, but a yellowish powder. This afternoon I
vapourised some copper, and it fumes but isn't seen again as
pure metal, so any method in air is out. I had the thought of doing
it up at the Titirangi Amateur Dramatic Society's production of
As You Like It, but a church hall without an atmosphere isn't
quite the same as a vacuum

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu


2001\07\20@091333 by Jinx

face picon face
> Jinx, use a thermostated iron, turn the temp way down (240C), put
> solder on the wire and then tack it on the silver side of the piezo
> while heating only the wire and the tiny solder bead on it. This
> takes some practice but it works.
>

Hi Peter, only a very few of the piezos are silvered. The majority
of them have no metal at all and I'm resigned to using physical
contacts

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
piclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEspam.....mitvma.mit.edu


2001\07\20@112001 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Jinx wrote:
>
> > I was thinking the hot copper vapor might oxidize in the air
> > before it got deposited, but again, I don't know.  If it did oxidize,
> > you couldn't solder to it and it wouldn't be a conductive layer
> > anyway.  If vacuum is impractical, how about inside a plastic
> > bag filled with nitrogen or carbon dioxide?
>
> A white hot oxy-acetylene flame is a very reactive environment
> and any metal vapours coming off would be oxides or other
> compounds from the carburising effect of unburnt acetylene.


Hi Jinx, actually I meant using an electric
current to vaporise the copper wire. From my
personal experience, often when a component fails
at high currents it vaporises the copper and makes
a very definite copper film on whatever is next to
it. Often this happens in a TV and I have the job
of scratching the (conductive) copper film off. :o)

I'm sure you could do something with enough copper
to solder to, even if it takes a few blasts. I
followed Olin's points about the vacuum with
interest, but I think that is more for getting a
high quality film over a larger area. Just blasting
the wire apart when it is next to something WILL
give you a copper film, i've seen it so many times.
-Roman

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspammitvma.mit.edu


2001\07\20@171826 by Jinx

face picon face
> Hi Jinx, actually I meant using an electric
> current to vaporise the copper wire.

Yeah, I was just putting the idea of using a flame to bed

> From my
> personal experience, often when a component fails
> at high currents it vaporises the copper and makes

I've had that once or twice when a triac loses the will to
live. I believe telescope mirrors are silvered by electrically
evaporating the metal in a vacuum

> high quality film over a larger area. Just blasting
> the wire apart when it is next to something WILL
> give you a copper film, i've seen it so many times.
> -Roman

Perhaps one way would be to use two steel rods with a
bead of copper between their ends (like a spark gap)
and zap. The tricky bit might be getting adhesion of the
copper vapour to the ceramic. Hey, if it worked it could
be a neat way to put your own logo onto a chip

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu


2001\07\20@190544 by Ashley Roll

flavicon
face
Hi Guys,

There are a bunch of (possibly mad) individuals that mess with lots of high
voltage stuff on the net.. Do a search for "Exploding Wire" and that should
get you going..

Basically you need a big HIGH voltage (5KV?) cap, charge it to several
thousand volts and discharge using a spark gap to dump the current into a
small wire.. Kilojoules of energy are not to difficult to achieve.

Also, while your wasting the rest of you day marvelling at what some of
these people are doing have a look at some "Can Crusher" stuff :) Some of
the can crushers are "switched" by dropping a sacrificial piece of copper
into a spark gap which then vaporises it..

BTW: Yes this is mind bogglingly dangerous. Don't try this at home kids. :)

Ash.

> Perhaps one way would be to use two steel rods with a
> bead of copper between their ends (like a spark gap)
> and zap. The tricky bit might be getting adhesion of the
> copper vapour to the ceramic. Hey, if it worked it could
> be a neat way to put your own logo onto a chip

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu


2001\07\20@201507 by Kathy Quinlan

flavicon
face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jinx" <RemoveMEjoecolquittTakeThisOuTspamspamCLEAR.NET.NZ>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspamspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 5:18 AM
Subject: Re: [EE]:Soldering piezos

<SNIP>

> Perhaps one way would be to use two steel rods with a
> bead of copper between their ends (like a spark gap)
> and zap. The tricky bit might be getting adhesion of the
> copper vapour to the ceramic. Hey, if it worked it could
> be a neat way to put your own logo onto a chip


Copper does bond to ceramic very well, just as LinTek in Australia, they use
a particle accelerator to deposit copper.

Regards,

Kat.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu


2001\07\21@040408 by Jinx

face picon face
> There are a bunch of (possibly mad) individuals

Make that "bunch of (possibly mad) individuals" + 1

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\07\21@082543 by Robert A. LaBudde

flavicon
face
At 09:18 AM 7/21/01 +1200, Jinx wrote:
> > Hi Jinx, actually I meant using an electric
> > current to vaporise the copper wire.
>
>Yeah, I was just putting the idea of using a flame to bed
>
> > From my
> > personal experience, often when a component fails
> > at high currents it vaporises the copper and makes
>
>I've had that once or twice when a triac loses the will to
>live. I believe telescope mirrors are silvered by electrically
>evaporating the metal in a vacuum
><snip>

Instead of all these electrodeposition shenanigans, why not just use an
electroplating "pen" to plate copper on the surface?

================================================================
Robert A. LaBudde, PhD, PAS, Dpl. ACAFS  e-mail: ralSTOPspamspamspam_OUTlcfltd.com
Least Cost Formulations, Ltd.            URL: http://lcfltd.com/
824 Timberlake Drive                     Tel: 757-467-0954
Virginia Beach, VA 23464-3239            Fax: 757-467-2947

"Vere scire est per causas scire"
================================================================

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\07\21@090211 by Jinx

face picon face
> Instead of all these electrodeposition shenanigans, why
> not just use an electroplating "pen" to plate copper on
> the surface?

Not familiar with that. What is it ?

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\07\21@095658 by Ashley Roll

flavicon
face
Hehe..

Not that I won't be playing with a few of those "toys" if I had a few high
voltage caps lying around :)

Ash

> > There are a bunch of (possibly mad) individuals
>
> Make that "bunch of (possibly mad) individuals" + 1
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
> [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads
>
>

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\07\21@104439 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Ashley Roll wrote:
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> There are a bunch of (possibly mad) individuals that mess with lots of high
> voltage stuff on the net.. Do a search for "Exploding Wire" and that should
> get you going..
>
> Basically you need a big HIGH voltage (5KV?) cap, charge it to several
> thousand volts and discharge using a spark gap to dump the current into a
> small wire.. Kilojoules of energy are not to difficult to achieve.


For the need Jinx had it doesn't require high volts,
just high current. Connect a thin copper wire to a
12v car battery and see how much copper gets deposited
on the things near it... :o)
-Roman

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\07\21@123005 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
Roman wrote:

>
>For the need Jinx had it doesn't require high volts,
>just high current. Connect a thin copper wire to a
>12v car battery and see how much copper gets deposited
>on the things near it... :o)

Back in high school I made my first "arc welder" using a
xfrmr from a TV set - probably used the 12V 10A secondary
windings - broke the carbon rods out of 2 D-cells, connected
to the xfrmr, and held the rod ends close together. Made a
fine arc - prolly reason I need glasses now [spectacles, to
you brit types]. Maybe Jinx can use a heavy copper wire for
the 2nd electrode.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\07\21@181550 by Jinx

face picon face
> For the need Jinx had it doesn't require high volts,
> just high current. Connect a thin copper wire to a
> 12v car battery and see how much copper gets
> deposited on the things near it... :o)

Oi mum, come 'ere. You're gonna be part of an
Internet experiment. Stand there, close your eyes,
hold your hand out

When I was a bad lad some friends and I shorted out
a tractor battery with a garden fork. Meltastic !!

Common arc welders use only a few volts at whopping
great amperages. The idea there of course is to have a
controllable process. Vapourising a piece of copper in
an instant is a little different in that you want an explosion
of the feed stock rather than melt it. Assuming I did find
a way to reliably blast a wire at 12V, how are the switching
components going to fare ? Caps and mechanical devices
aren't going to like high instantaneous amps through them
over and over

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\07\21@182416 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
>  Caps and mechanical devices
>aren't going to like high instantaneous amps through them
>over and over

That's what they make water-cooled Ignitrons for.

--
Dave's Engineering Page: http://www.dvanhorn.org

I would have a link to http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/find.cgi?KC6ETE-9 here
in my signature line, but due to the inability of sysadmins at TELOCITY to
differentiate a signature line from the text of an email, I am forbidden to
have it.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\07\21@205417 by Robert A. LaBudde

flavicon
face
At 01:00 AM 7/22/01 +1200, you wrote:
> > Instead of all these electrodeposition shenanigans, why
> > not just use an electroplating "pen" to plate copper on
> > the surface?
>
>Not familiar with that. What is it ?

Hobby shop item. A "pen" with a brush or wick end and copper salt solution
inside. Uses a battery and a ground clip to repair plating. You can get
copper and silver etc.

================================================================
Robert A. LaBudde, PhD, PAS, Dpl. ACAFS  e-mail: spamBeGoneralSTOPspamspamEraseMElcfltd.com
Least Cost Formulations, Ltd.            URL: http://lcfltd.com/
824 Timberlake Drive                     Tel: 757-467-0954
Virginia Beach, VA 23464-3239            Fax: 757-467-2947

"Vere scire est per causas scire"
================================================================

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\07\22@013541 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Robert A. LaBudde wrote:

> At 01:00 AM 7/22/01 +1200, you wrote:
> > > Instead of all these electrodeposition shenanigans, why
> > > not just use an electroplating "pen" to plate copper on
> > > the surface?
> >
> >Not familiar with that. What is it ?
>
> Hobby shop item. A "pen" with a brush or wick end and copper salt solution
> inside. Uses a battery and a ground clip to repair plating. You can get
> copper and silver etc.

THAT'S what we had when I was a kid!  Worked like a charm.  Copper,
nickel, silver and gold plating, if I recall correctly -- not sure about
the nickel, but I know there were four.  Had a gold-plated Boy Scout knife
for a while, I was the envy of the troop.  Well, OK, I wasn't, I was just
the geeky kid...  8-)

Dale
--
A train stops at a train station.  A bus stops at a bus station.
On my desk I have a workstation...

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2001\07\22@021853 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Jinx wrote:
>
> > For the need Jinx had it doesn't require high volts,
> > just high current. Connect a thin copper wire to a
> > 12v car battery and see how much copper gets
> > deposited on the things near it... :o)


> The idea there of course is to have a
> controllable process. Vapourising a piece of copper in
> an instant is a little different in that you want an explosion
> of the feed stock rather than melt it. Assuming I did find
> a way to reliably blast a wire at 12V, how are the switching
> components going to fare ? Caps and mechanical devices
> aren't going to like high instantaneous amps through them
> over and over


Everyone's making this sound a lot harder than
it is! :o) See the size wire in a 2 amp glass
fuse? Get a strand of bare copper wire the
same size, pulled from a multistrand cable.

The fine wire is 2cm long and placed next to
the piezo, then use a couple of thick copper wires
(car jumper leads?) and a 12v battery or 10 amp
battery charger, etc. Making sure the fine wire
is close to the piezo and secure, touch the
big lead on the battery terminal. The little
2cm strand wire will vaporise very well!

For repeatability, keep cutting and using more
little wire pieces. This should be very easy
and safe, but I would WEAR GOGGLES.
-Roman

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2001\07\22@030344 by Jinx

face picon face
> Everyone's making this sound a lot harder than it is! :o)

Nah ;-)  as usual the thread has taken the Tim "The Toolman"
Taylor route. More power !! Hurfhurfhurfgruntgrunt

Some interesting ideas being kicked around though, and
that's what it's all about

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2001\07\22@050012 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 08:24 AM 7/21/01 -0400, you wrote:

>Instead of all these electrodeposition shenanigans, why not just use an
> electroplating "pen" to plate copper on the surface?

You'd need a conductive surface to start with, and the ceramic is
a quite good insulator. The "activation" techniques used to make
plated-through-hole PCBs might work to provide a surface for the
electroplating.

I suspect (don't know for sure) that it is done commercially by
printing a conductive ink onto the ceramic disks and then firing
the disk in a controlled atmosphere (to prevent oxidation).

But, for a one-off, maybe it's possible to use the conductive
stuff you can buy to repair car rear window heaters.. I think auto
supply shops stock that.

Best regards,

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
KILLspamspeffspamBeGonespaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.bluecollarlinux.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2001\07\22@123759 by Larry Williams

flavicon
face
For goodness sake! Just take the blame thing to one of those people
that  bronse baby shoes. They can plate anything, literally. I spoke to
one about doing some plastic parts a couple of years ago and although I
don't remember how much, it was quite reasonable. Besides, they usually
work out of a small place and you could negotiate your own price.
They'll even plate that pair of undies that gal left in your place last
month, so you can hangem on the wall and not get stinky.
Besides, if you have a bunch and want to do it yourself, you can buy a
kit.

Spehro Pefhany wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2001\07\23@052316 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Assuming I did find a way to reliably blast a wire at 12V,
>how are the switching components going to fare ?

I can see you have not blown a fuse on your switchboard at home recently.
The number of times I have taken a fuse holder out to find that the
porcelain is copper plated ......

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\23@053146 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>The "activation" techniques used to make
>plated-through-hole PCBs might work to provide
>a surface for the electroplating.

Now there is an idea. Feed a piece of fuse wire through a hole I have just
drilled, connect it to roman's battery, and voila! instant plated through
hole - what was that about Tim the Toolman?

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\23@060418 by Vasile Surducan

flavicon
face
You are really funny guys ! Even this subject has a little fun, it was
much simple if any piclister from NZ send to Joe some metalized piezos, I
could do this, but will take three weeks or a whole month from here...
BTW any metalizing technology without vacuum ( like you proposed here
) will have no adherence with the piezo surface. If the final device will
be just a toy it's OK, else for an ultrasonic transducer ( like Joe
pointed in his ask ) all you've talking here it's a good joke, execept
probably high temperature silver paste and repolarising treatment...
A vacuum chamber for metalizing is not wery hard to built for an amateur,
if you have a vacuum pump up to 10exp-5 barr and a little vaporisation
resistive owen ( 12V 10...20 Amp )Don't forget to use some mask else
everything in the chamber will be metalised.  Aluminium may be vaporised
easyest but is difficult to solder on aluminium thin film...anyway is
better than soldering on to ceramic surface directly...
Who knows, Joe it's a very good experimenter and I like his problems !
Vasile


On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\23@131459 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> That's what they make water-cooled Ignitrons for.

Actually the relay in a car starter shoud get you going. If you immerse it
in oil it will even last a while. Make that light oil and provide for
accidental ignition.

Exploding copper is not to be taken lightly. The flying copper carries a
lot of energy besides the heat and it can do really lasting damage to
people and objects.

Peter

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\23@150734 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
Peter Peres wrote:
.......
>
>Exploding copper is not to be taken lightly. The flying copper carries a
>lot of energy besides the heat and it can do really lasting damage to
>people and objects.
>

Therefore maybe better to use the copper arc welder I mentioned
rather than the tangential copper exploder.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\23@152426 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
Alan B. Pearce wrote:
>>The "activation" techniques used to make
>>plated-through-hole PCBs might work to provide
>>a surface for the electroplating.
>
>Now there is an idea. Feed a piece of fuse wire through a hole I have just
>drilled, connect it to roman's battery, and voila! instant plated through
>hole - what was that about Tim the Toolman?
>


Alan, how much would you charge me to plate 100 pcbs each with
600 holes, using your method?
;-)

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\23@153836 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Hey, it might work! You could have two large metal plates, put all the
little pieces of wire through each hole, then make connection to all the
little wires using the two metal plates (like a sandwich: metal plate #1,
then PCB with wires thru it, then metal plate #2). Of course, good luck
controlling the process well enough to ensure good plating :-)

Sean

On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Dan Michaels wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\23@160516 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> Hobby shop item. A "pen" with a brush or wick end and copper salt
> solution inside. Uses a battery and a ground clip to repair plating.
> You can get copper and silver etc.

It only works for plating conductive objects.

Peter

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\23@163012 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 10:09 PM 7/22/01 +0300, Peter L. Peres wrote:
> > Hobby shop item. A "pen" with a brush or wick end and copper salt
> > solution inside. Uses a battery and a ground clip to repair plating.
> > You can get copper and silver etc.
>
>It only works for plating conductive objects.

In PCB shops, they use an electroless copper plate to plate the inside of
the holes.
At this stage, the board is drilled, but not masked in any way. It's just
plain copper on both sides.

They follow this with an electroplate step, but the electroless part is how
they plate the holes.

--
Dave's Engineering Page: http://www.dvanhorn.org

I would have a link to http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/find.cgi?KC6ETE-9 here
in my signature line, but due to the inability of sysadmins at TELOCITY to
differentiate a signature line from the text of an email, I am forbidden to
have it.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\23@164650 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 03:29 PM 7/23/01 -0500, you wrote:

>In PCB shops, they use an electroless copper plate to plate the inside of
>the holes.
>At this stage, the board is drilled, but not masked in any way. It's just
>plain copper on both sides.
>
>They follow this with an electroplate step, but the electroless part is how
>they plate the holes.

My understanding from the various PCB plants I've toured is that the
electroplating provides most of the copper thickness on the insides of the
holes, the preceding chemical processes establish a conductive base on
which to
electroplate the thicker layer of copper inside the holes.

Maybe that's what you are saying.

Best regards,

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
@spam@speff@spam@spamspam_OUTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.bluecollarlinux.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\27@063155 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
A copper arc welder will produce a lot of copper oxide.

The exploding wire (and tape) method produces liquid copper flying at
speeds in excess of the speed of sound. When this hits a clean
semiporous surface like alumina or ceramics it goes in several microns and
is impossible to remove other then chemically. However the layer will be
very uneven. If you do this in a vacuum like Vasile suggested you can have
better results (evaporation and cathode arc plating are slow). And
building a 1x10^-5 atm vaccum chamber is NOT easy for amateurs as he said.

Peter

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2001\07\27@063158 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> In PCB shops, they use an electroless copper plate to plate the inside
> of the holes. At this stage, the board is drilled, but not masked in
> any way. It's just plain copper on both sides.

I know but I also know that the electroless plating just barely sticks to
the holes (that and speed is why they electro it afterwards). Most
chemical depositions onto untreated surfaces have poor mechanical
characteristics (excepting the sticky black goo that should not be there
in the first place).

Peter

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2001\07\27@074108 by Vasile Surducan

flavicon
face
On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Peter L. Peres wrote:

> A copper arc welder will produce a lot of copper oxide.
>
> The exploding wire (and tape) method produces liquid copper flying at
> speeds in excess of the speed of sound. When this hits a clean
> semiporous surface like alumina or ceramics it goes in several microns and
> is impossible to remove other then chemically. However the layer will be
> very uneven. If you do this in a vacuum like Vasile suggested you can have
> better results (evaporation and cathode arc plating are slow). And
> building a 1x10^-5 atm vaccum chamber is NOT easy for amateurs as he said.
>
 Probably I forgot to mention, I'm working into a physics institute where
I have all I need to play with vacuum ( and all except the vacuum
pump are "homebrewed" here). You don't need a thousens dollars vacuum
instalation like probably Peter thinks ( sorry! ) However read the
following and tell me if you think I'm wrong ( but I'm not talking without to
know... ):

- almost good evaporation can be done at 10 exp-3 atm which can be obtain
using a water pressure vacuum pump. ( tested and works ), however a 10 exp
-5 vacuum pump ( without secondary thermal difusion stage ) is not to
expensive ( here ) if you really want it...

- all the problems with vacuum ( testing the tightness of the chamber,
BTW, electrical connections trough electrodes and to evaporation owen are
made from cutted power diodes or thyristors ) are solved if you have or
you know to built a HV vacuum leackage testing device or you have or know
also to built a vacuum-meter.

- the whole chamber at 10 exp -3...-5 may be from 10mm glass, sealed with
vacuum silicone vaseline or made from stainless stell ( that's we
built here )

- and finally a HV supply with a couple of unstabilised KV, I think is not
a big deal for a good engineer ( else is not an engineer...)

We built here gas spectrometers which have complete vacuum stages up to 10
exp -7 or more, if the vacuum technology is restrained then is no big deal
as I said. Of course is difficult for someone who knows almost nothing
about vacuum, but everyone can learn. Knowing Joe Colquitt ( as Jinx, on
this list) pretty well, I think he could do this... )
We have an experiment like this, which our children are teaching about and
experiment in high-school...

A long time ago I repaired using this technology, one eprom in ceramic
package, because I need the source inside into an old computer.
I've vaporised aluminium, it takes less than 2 minutes, and after that
I've glued the missing pin with a silver (high temperature) paste

I hope you understood now my point of view.

Sincerely yours,
Vasile

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2001 , 2002 only
- Today
- New search...