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'[EE]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....'
2005\06\13@114920 by Mike Harrison

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Just been looking at the new HP 6000 series scopes.
Very nice kit but something bugs me about the upgrade path....

The DSO6034A has 4 analogue channels and lists at $7229.
The MSO60634A adds 16 digital channels and lists at $9029

However looking at the detail, the DSO version has all the hardware of the MSO version, but the
functionality is disabled in the software.
You can upgrade the DSO to the MSO for $1800, for which you get a cable and a licence code.

OK, you may argue that you're getting additional functionality. But $1800 for a cable doesn't
exactly give a warm happy feeling of having got good value....
At least the upgrade cost is the same as the price difference between the models.

However if you look at the memory options, you see that when you buy either of these scopes, you are
actually buying 8M of memory, however only 1M of it is enabled.
To "Upgrade", you need to pay $495 or $995 to upgrade to 2 or 8M respectively.

You have already bought 8M of memory but are being asked to pay $999 for permission to use hardware
you already own.. (I see this as different to the MSO upgrade, as there is no additional software
involved.)

Maybe I'm just thinking in an old fashioned way but this strikes me as a bit of a rip-off....

Comments...?

2005\06\13@120422 by Bob Blick

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> However if you look at the memory options, you see that when you buy
> either of these scopes, you are
> actually buying 8M of memory, however only 1M of it is enabled.
> To "Upgrade", you need to pay $495 or $995 to upgrade to 2 or 8M
> respectively.

You probably have to enable the memory within a certain time period, or
the extra memory will go "stale", just like their newer ink cartridges
that have a builtin expiration date. HP sucks.

-Bob


2005\06\13@121828 by Charles Craft

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Look up "Capacity On Demand" or iCOD on the web.

IBM did it with their main frames and it was rumored that DEC did it with VAX microcode.

Hardware costs mouse nuts now so the value add has to be functionality or capacity.


{Original Message removed}

2005\06\13@122016 by Joe Farr

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I look on it this way.
If HP want $9000 for a product, but they are prepared to sell me a cut down version for $7000 that meets my needs, then lucky me. I've just saved $2000.
Later on, if I need those extra features, theres an upgrade path...
It's like PCB design software. They want more money for bigger board areas - but it's the same software except for some INI file type settings...
Joe.
  On 6/13/05, Joe Farr <spam_OUTjoe.farrTakeThisOuTspamkcsl.uk.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2005\06\13@122101 by Dave VanHorn

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At 11:04 AM 6/13/2005, Bob Blick wrote:
> > However if you look at the memory options, you see that when you buy
> > either of these scopes, you are
> > actually buying 8M of memory, however only 1M of it is enabled.
> > To "Upgrade", you need to pay $495 or $995 to upgrade to 2 or 8M
> > respectively.
>
>You probably have to enable the memory within a certain time period, or
>the extra memory will go "stale", just like their newer ink cartridges
>that have a builtin expiration date. HP sucks.

I guess some of the printer guys stayed on the agilent side.

Well, there's always TEK.

2005\06\13@124828 by Mike Harrison

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On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:20:15 +0100, you wrote:

>I look on it this way.
> If HP want $9000 for a product, but they are prepared to sell me a cut down
>version for $7000 that meets my needs, then lucky me. I've just saved $2000.
>Later on, if I need those extra features, theres an upgrade path...
> It's like PCB design software. They want more money for bigger board areas
>- but it's the same software except for some INI file type settings...
> Joe.

Although looking at it the other way round though :
If HP can make and sell a scope with all the bells and whistles for $7000, they can trounce the
competition and more, happier customers.
Unfortunately this end of the scope market is effectively a tri-opoly with Tek and LeCroy, so
probably small enough that they can all keep prices high. Even if a new company came along with
something better and cheaper, there would be a pretty unassailable credibility gap to overcome with
these long-established companies.
 
{Quote hidden}

>> --

2005\06\13@125138 by phil B

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this is a pretty well worn practice in the industry.
the reasoning goes that customers expect a range of
products and don't want to pay for features they don't
need.  so, the company will create a lower end product
that is a "feature reduction" of the main product.
You see it in software all the time though its easy to
build a version with out the "pro" features - Foo
Design Lite vs Foo Design Pro.  People don't seem to
complain about this practice with SW.

The cynic in me says that the lower price point is a
"come on" product and the goal is to extract as much
revenue from price insensitive customers who always
want "only the best".  I'm sure there is some MBA at
HP, er Agitate er what ever, that has a PowerPoint
chart showing the marginal added profit from selling
the "pro" version and how 1/3 or so of the customers
always opt for the higher price point product,
regardless of the features.

The good news for consumers is that the competitors
have a great opportunity to slide well under the
leader's price point and take market share away.

--- Mike Harrison <mikespamKILLspamwhitewing.co.uk> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2005\06\13@140857 by olin piclist

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Bob Blick wrote:
> You probably have to enable the memory within a certain time period, or
> the extra memory will go "stale", just like their newer ink cartridges
> that have a builtin expiration date. HP sucks.

Aren't we talking about two different companies here?  The printer folks are
from the dark side of the HP split, until recently run by Darth Fiorina and
the other Sith.  I thought scopes went to Agilent, or is there some remnant
that's still part of HP?

2005\06\13@141853 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> OK, you may argue that you're getting additional
> functionality. But $1800 for a cable doesn't
> exactly give a warm happy feeling of having got good value....
> At least the upgrade cost is the same as the price difference
> between the models.

What's the difference with software for which the price buys you the
license key? The $$$ you pay for let's say Microsoft Windows is wierd
compared to the price of the CD and the key-code sticker. But of course
that is not what you buy: you buy the right to use software that has
cost $$$$$$$ to develop. (MsBashing mode on: maybe it should have been
one extra $ and less bugs :)

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\06\13@151920 by Dave VanHorn

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At 01:09 PM 6/13/2005, Olin Lathrop wrote:
>Bob Blick wrote:
>>You probably have to enable the memory within a certain time period, or
>>the extra memory will go "stale", just like their newer ink cartridges
>>that have a builtin expiration date. HP sucks.
>
>Aren't we talking about two different companies here?  The printer folks are
>from the dark side of the HP split, until recently run by Darth Fiorina and
>the other Sith.  I thought scopes went to Agilent, or is there some remnant
>that's still part of HP?

I think agilent has some remanant infection.

2005\06\13@165032 by James Newtons Massmind

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> You can upgrade the DSO to the MSO for $1800, for which you
> get a cable and a licence code.

The only thing I can say for sure is that there WILL be a black market for
license codes and a lot of "replacement" cables for the MSO will be
purchased.

---
James.



2005\06\13@171347 by Mike Harrison

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On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:50:22 -0700, you wrote:

>> You can upgrade the DSO to the MSO for $1800, for which you
>> get a cable and a licence code.
>
>The only thing I can say for sure is that there WILL be a black market for
>license codes and a lot of "replacement" cables for the MSO will be
>purchased.

I would imagine that the license codes are tied to the scope serial number - if not, then I suspect
upgrade sales will be pretty slack...!




2005\06\14@134328 by Peter

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On Mon, 13 Jun 2005, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Bob Blick wrote:
>> You probably have to enable the memory within a certain time period, or
>> the extra memory will go "stale", just like their newer ink cartridges
>> that have a builtin expiration date. HP sucks.
>
> Aren't we talking about two different companies here?  The printer folks are
> from the dark side of the HP split, until recently run by Darth Fiorina and
> the other Sith.  I thought scopes went to Agilent, or is there some remnant
> that's still part of HP?

Maybe they cross-polinate a little just to stay in touch. Discuss the
next ink cartridge chip's encryption over coffee and muffins with the
guy who does the license manager for the scopes or something like that.
When they split they kept mutual access to each other's IP I think. This
is common for large company splits afaik. (not from personal experience)

Also, if you think the scope issue is outrageous, check some telecom
package 'option' deals some time.

Peter

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