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'[EE]:Flash tube lifetime'
2001\10\23@202227 by Kathy Quinlan

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Hi ya Jinx,

ROFLMAO, sorry I had to laugh, the DSE and Altronics tube, are not suitable
for 50J, I am currently doing strobe design for high speed digital
photography. These units are only rated at 0.6J IIRC. I have run them at 6J,
but not continuous. If you want continuous, I would recommend the linear
strobe tube that DSE sell (as a spare part for 1's and 2's from the spare
parts division, if you want more, you must buy 500+ from the wholesale
division in Sydney) they are for around 6J IIRC.

If you can find a wholesaler who supplies other types, I would love to know
(I do not really want to use amglow or any of the other USA based companies,
would prefer to use NZ or AU supplier)

Regards,

Kat.
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{Original Message removed}

2001\10\23@203259 by Jinx

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> Hi ya Jinx,
>
> ROFLMAO, sorry I had to laugh, the DSE and Altronics tube, are not
> suitable for 50J,

Nice to know that someone else is currently at it. But when you say not
suitable for 50J, does that necessarily mean you have to use 50J ? As
I understand it, the tube is more or less a short when ionised and the
energy through it would depend on what was available (ie the reservoir
cap). I don't really need the mother of all flashes, so a smaller cap is
quite acceptable, perhaps in the 5u range like I expected. The tube in
the original was not specified, so thanks for the info

As for suppliers, if I hear of anything I'll give you a buzz

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2001\10\23@204130 by Kathy Quinlan

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Hiya Jinx,

If say a 0.6J flash is what you want, run a 5 or 6.5uf 440V polly capacitor
(the ones they use for cap start on motors) this will give you a great
little strobe.

I have built strobes with 22uF 450VDC axial capacitor, 680R 11W current
limiter, and a standard  trigger with a 4N28 opto driver.


Regards,

Kat.

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{Original Message removed}

2001\10\23@210702 by Jinx

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Cheers

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2001\10\24@070050 by Alan B. Pearce

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Jinx
I would suggest you go down to your local photographic shop which has an in
house D&P service, and ask for a disposable camera with a flash in it, that
they have developed the film from. This will give you a complete flash unit
with the sort of light output you are seeking, and a cycle time that would
suitable.

Something to remember about these flash tubes is that if not used for some
time they will go "soft" and not work properly. This is typified by seeing
the trigger pulse arc along the outside of the tube from the trigger
electrode, but the main flash does not occur. This problem only tends to
occur in units put away in storage for some time.

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2001\10\24@074439 by Jinx

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> I would suggest you go down to your local photographic shop which
> has an in house D&P service, and ask for a disposable camera with
> a flash in it, that they have developed the film from. This will give you
> a complete flash unit with the sort of light output you are seeking, and
> a cycle time that would suitable.

The price sounds right !!

> Something to remember about these flash tubes is that if not used for
> some time they will go "soft" and not work properly

So they leak like valves ?

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2001\10\24@090517 by Alan B. Pearce

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>> Something to remember about these flash tubes is that if not used for
>> some time they will go "soft" and not work properly

>So they leak like valves ?

I suspect they do - I cannot recall I ever saw the reason for it, I just
know it was a common complaint when my father was repairing them in
Wellington (which is where I grew up). If you were in Wellington I would get
him to look some disposables out for you.

I believe the itty bitty ones like in disposables and the other built in
ones run to about 200-250V on the tube. The older Japanese separates that
slide onto the camera were pushing the tube technology using 300-350V, where
most of the German stuff used 500V.

I understand that the units commercial photographers used in the early
1950's used about 2000V on the tube, and with oil filled paper capacitors as
the reservoir had an extremely short flash time - as in being able to get a
sharp in focus image of the outer edge of a ballerinas dress while she was
doing a spin. The later 500V units with electrolytic capacitors had too much
esr in the capacitors to achieve this short a pulse of light.

You may find that the wiring to the tube from the reservoir capacitor seems
to take a long route around the camera, when you dismantle it. This is
because the self inductance of the wire is used as a current limiting
impedance when the tube flashes, so the capacitor and tube are both operated
within safe limits. Some early flash units that could turn off the flash
tube used this inductance as part of that function, it may still be done
that way if the function exists on the flash.

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2001\10\24@121453 by Chetan Bhargava

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If they don't have the used camera, buy a new one, carefully remove the
outer carton, crack open the case and you will get a 35mm roll (with a few
frames ruined), a nice AA alkaline battery and the flash unit. The 35mm roll
can be used in any 35mm camera. :-)



> I would suggest you go down to your local photographic shop which has an
in
> house D&P service, and ask for a disposable camera with a flash in it,
that
> they have developed the film from. This will give you a complete flash
unit
> with the sort of light output you are seeking, and a cycle time that would
> suitable.

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2001\10\24@150337 by Jinx

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> Wellington (which is where I grew up). If you were in Wellington I
> would get him to look some disposables out for you

I'll nip off down to the photo shop in New Lynn today and find out
where all the disposables go to be dissected. Already have visions
of a field of flash bulbs. Wouldn't that be the Christmas gift for the
super-ego ? Detector across the driveway, dozens of flash bulbs
going off like arriving home is a gala event !!!! Or an imaginery
throng of worshippers with their Instamatics waiting as the conquering
hero exits the loo after a well-executed whizz

Actually, (assuming I can get my hands on them), have a few serious
uses for a pile of small re-usable flash units. That was a great idea Alan
(and you too Chetan). Thanks

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2001\10\24@155606 by Jeff DeMaagd

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----- Original Message -----
From: Jinx <joecolquittspamKILLspamCLEAR.NET.NZ>


> > Wellington (which is where I grew up). If you were in Wellington I
> > would get him to look some disposables out for you
>
> I'll nip off down to the photo shop in New Lynn today and find out
> where all the disposables go to be dissected. Already have visions
> of a field of flash bulbs. Wouldn't that be the Christmas gift for the

I thought that a lot of the innards get reconditioned and re-used whenever
possible.

That's what I remember hearing from a Kodak engineer.

Jeff

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2001\10\24@182019 by Jinx

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> I would suggest you go down to your local photographic shop which
> has an in house D&P service, and ask for a disposable camera with
> a flash in it, that they have developed the film from. This will give you
> a complete flash unit with the sort of light output you are seeking, and
> a cycle time that would suitable.

Been there, done that, this very morning. Well worth the trip. Definitely

Not the biggest flash bulbs, and they do take a while to get ready, but
stagger the firings of a boxful and you've got something approaching
a strobe

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2001\10\24@182433 by Jinx

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> I thought that a lot of the innards get reconditioned and re-used
> whenever possible.
>
> That's what I remember hearing from a Kodak engineer.
>
> Jeff

True - however there are just so many of them it is very easy to get
what you want for next to nothing. And with the Southern summer
just around the corner there will be truckloads available over the
coming weeks

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2001\10\24@193806 by Chetan Bhargava

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How much did they charge for a empty camera?

>
> Been there, done that, this very morning. Well worth the trip. Definitely
>

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2001\10\24@202031 by Jinx

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> How much did they charge for a empty camera?

Nuffink. Staff suggested that a boxful could be had for a few dollars.
Everything is there except the battery. Lens, viewfinder, numbered
wheel, battery holder, springs etc etc could be used in other projects.
Yet to pull the circuit apart, but it's very simple and could be re-worked
onto a much smaller PCB if necessary

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2001\10\25@151746 by Larry P. Thomas wa0gwa

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Exercise caution in the disassembly process because sometimes the flash
capacitor will still have a very nasty charge which bits badly.  I had a
small photo shop in a town I went to every week or so collect them for
me.  Finally had to stop it because I was running of places to put
them.  Never been charge a dime!  Would not advise disassembly while
driving even thought they generally pop apart easily due to capacitor
charge! Ouch! :(

Larry


At 01:19 PM 10/25/2001 +1300, you wrote:
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2001\10\25@163705 by Jinx

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> Exercise caution in the disassembly process because sometimes the
> flash capacitor will still have a very nasty charge which bites badly.

Yes, that crossed my mind yesterday. The cap is a 330V 120u which as
you say will make you think twice about where you poke pudgy pinkies

> small photo shop in a town I went to every week or so collect them for
> me.  Finally had to stop it because I was running of places to put
> them.  Never been charge a dime!

Apparently someone around here is re-filming (aaagh another noun
verbalised) them. Maybe for sale at flea markets, dunno. Not a bad
bit of weekend pocket money, make a few bucks on each one

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2001\10\26@132656 by Benjamin Bromilow

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Jinx wrote on 25/10/01 21:43:

> Exercise caution in the disassembly process because sometimes the  flash capacitor will still have a very nasty charge which bites badly.

>Yes, that crossed my mind yesterday. The cap is a 330V 120u which as you say will make you think twice about where you poke pudgy pinkies

In my experience the trigger voltage causes muscles to contract but is not particularly painful. The voltage across the tube when fully charged doesn't cause contraction but is significantly more painful- like having a needle put down the end of your finger..... Don't ask.....

Ben

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2001\10\29@042922 by Alan B. Pearce

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>In my experience the trigger voltage causes muscles to contract but is not
particularly painful. The >voltage across the tube when fully charged
doesn't cause contraction but is significantly more >painful- like having a
needle put down the end of your finger.....
>Don't ask.....

Now imagine the effect when touching a 500uF 500V capacitor bank when fully
charged .... again don't ask


Or being out on a callout to fix the flash tube in a microfiche duplicator
around midnight, and carefully turning the machine off, to do things around
the tube, touching both ends to find that there is still about 3kV DC
between the ends of the tube because turning off the power did not turn off
the DC supply..... This one was a real danger as I had shorted each end of
the tube to chassis in turn to make sure there was no energy left, only to
find that the whole supply was isolated from chassis by several megohms, so
my shorting trick did not work.

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2001\10\29@053242 by Jinx

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> the tube to chassis in turn to make sure there was no energy left,
> only to find that the whole supply was isolated from chassis by
> several megohms, so my shorting trick did not work

Well, the second one did ;-)))

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2001\10\29@054314 by Alan B. Pearce

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>> the tube to chassis in turn to make sure there was no energy left,
>> only to find that the whole supply was isolated from chassis by
>> several megohms, so my shorting trick did not work

>Well, the second one did ;-)))

Umm, yes, it was also between two hands - and the operator who was pregnant
was standing on a stool behind me! Luckily my reaction wasn't too violent,
just dropped everything in a hurry.

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2001\10\29@060631 by Jinx

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> >Well, the second one did ;-)))
>
> Umm, yes, it was also between two hands -

Oooh, nasty - potential Code Blue

I was surprised to learn that a defribrilator doesn't actually get the
heart started. It neutralises any irregularities like spasms by over-
powering them, leaving the then stopped heart to find its natural rhythm

It still gives me the willies to see people like Dr Megavolt take that
lightning through his suit, or those mad buggers who play around with
Tesla coils

> and the operator who was pregnant was standing on a stool behind
> me! Luckily my reaction wasn't too violent, just dropped everything in
> a hurry

And I'm ready with "lucky she didn't too"

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2001\10\29@064316 by Graeme Zimmer

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> It still gives me the willies to see people like Dr Megavolt take that
> lightning through his suit, or those mad buggers who play around with
> Tesla coils

Err, I thought that the point of Tesla Coils and the like was that they
generate
AC current of a frequency high enough to not affect the human nervous
system.

Hence all the neat stage tricks involving great long sparks and Fluro tubes,
etc...

That is, you can't get a "shock" from RF.
(enough watts will still burn you of course)

....................... Zim

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2001\10\29@141646 by Jinx

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> Err, I thought that the point of Tesla Coils and the like was that they
> generate AC current of a frequency high enough to not affect the
> human nervous system.
>
> Hence all the neat stage tricks involving great long sparks and Fluro
> tubes, etc...
>
> That is, you can't get a "shock" from RF.
> (enough watts will still burn you of course)
>
> ....................... Zim

That may be so, but take a look at just the front page of

http://www.drmegavolt.com/

Apart from the electricity aspect, what about magnetic effects ?
There is some concern about VHT power grid lines, cell phones
next to brains and even household wiring "allegedly" causing
problems in body cells. I wonder whether in a few years Dr Megavolt
will be riddled with cancers

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2001\10\29@144738 by Don Hyde

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Well Dr. Megavolt is just imitating Tesla, and he made it to the age of 86.

{Quote hidden}

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2001\10\31@125550 by Peter L. Peres

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> Now imagine the effect when touching a 500uF 500V capacitor bank when
> fully charged .... again don't ask

Oh but that's only 62 Joules. Try 30kV 2uF (900J). There is no need to
touch it, it's enough if it is shorted at less than 1 meter of your ears &
eyes. 900J is about half the energy of a M16 round at the muzzle (about
1800J).

Peter

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2001\10\31@125600 by Peter L. Peres

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> That is, you can't get a "shock" from RF.
> (enough watts will still burn you of course)

'Enough Watts' in this case starts at about 25W. Most serious Tesla coils
(the kind you see pictures of on the web) run at least ten times as much
power.

Peter

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2001\10\31@125911 by Benjamin Bromilow

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From: Jinx <@spam@joecolquittKILLspamspamCLEAR.NET.NZ>

> I was surprised to learn that a defribrilator doesn't actually get the
> heart started. It neutralises any irregularities like spasms by over-
> powering them, leaving the then stopped heart to find its natural rhythm
>

Absolutely, if you heart has stoppped (ie flat line) then defib'ing is not
good what so ever. You may as well whistle. Well actually, in real life you
do CPR whilst you whistle, using the defib is only going to warm up their
chest wall and smoke a few chest hairs. However, if the patient is in
ventricular fibrillation (spontaneous contractions starting from all over
the lower part of the heart at rapid speed) or ventricular tachycardia
(rapid activity with origin in the ventricles) then a good slap with the
defib often sorts things out. Of course sometimes it just sends them into
asystole (flat line)..... Big doh..... Get whisling again and more CPR....

It's the day job again......

Ben

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2001\10\31@151511 by Jinx

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> Absolutely, if you heart has stoppped (ie flat line) then defib'ing
> is not good what so ever. You may as well whistle. Well actually,
> in real life you

Guess I'll get Baron Frankenstein off that pedestal then ;-(((

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