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'[EE]: tips for new lab'
2006\09\24@150948 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
The next months we will move to a new home. Big move, about 1 km :) But
it is much larger, and I claimed part of that increase in room. So I'll
be making making me a new lab/storage/order-handling room. I guess you
guys have a few tips? Room is ~ 5x5m, 2.5m high. It is mostly for me,
but sometimes a guy is helping me with soldering, and occasionally a
client comes over to talk. Current ideas are: marmoleum/linoleum on the
floor, workbench on one wall (~4m long), one big (1.5x3m) table, small
section for coarse work (saw, drill, etc) in one corner (probably with a
curtain arounbd it) and lots and lots of storage.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\24@155359 by Timothy Weber

face picon face
Task lighting?  Cyclorama in a corner for taking nicely lit snapshots of
small objects?  Mains outlets every meter?

Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org

2006\09\24@160658 by Steven Howes

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> Task lighting?  Cyclorama in a corner for taking nicely lit snapshots of > small objects?  Mains outlets every meter?

5v outlets would be cool ;)


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2006\09\24@161510 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Task lighting?  

what's that? When you say lighting in my countyry that's Philips :)

> Cyclorama in a corner for taking nicely lit snapshots of small
objects?  

Cyclorama? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclorama ?

But a spot with good lighting is a good idea. Probably a spot on the
workbench with extra indirect lighting will do.

> Mains outlets every meter?

on the workbench? you must be joking! more like a 5-outlet brick every
half meter!

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\24@161906 by Philip Pemberton

face
flavicon
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Steven Howes wrote:
>> Task lighting?  Cyclorama in a corner for taking nicely lit snapshots of
>> small objects?  Mains outlets every meter?
>
> 5v outlets would be cool ;)

Don't forget 3.3V and 12V, too, in both positive and negative! :)

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2006\09\24@164510 by Timothy Weber

face picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>> Task lighting?  
>
> what's that? When you say lighting in my countyry that's Philips :)

Philips is fine!  :)  I mean multiple lights that you can easily direct
at a particular spot.  Could be on tracks or goosenecks or whatever.

>> Cyclorama in a corner for taking nicely lit snapshots of small
> objects?  
>
> Cyclorama? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclorama ?

Hm, I guess I'm coming from animation, where a cyclorama is a smooth
curved surface that you can put a small object on to get a flat-color
background.  I usually use a smooth white table, but if I had the space
I'd at least have a couple bounce lights and some movable lights for
specular highlights.

>> Mains outlets every meter?
>
> on the workbench? you must be joking! more like a 5-outlet brick every
> half meter!

:)  It goes without saying that each of those mains outlets has 4 strips
hanging off of it...
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org

2006\09\24@171943 by Howard Winter

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On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 21:06:15 +0100, Steven Howes wrote:

> > Task lighting?  Cyclorama in a corner for taking nicely lit snapshots of
> > small objects?  Mains outlets every meter?
>
> 5v outlets would be cool ;)

And 12V!

An area for doing work with small parts would be good - a large-lens illuminated magnifier, and a bench with a concave curved front surface that
you can lean against, with an upstand to stop dropped parts falling onto the floor.  And a bench surface that will reduce bouncing of anything
dropped - perhaps the non-slip coverings designed for toolboxes and such.

I use trays for keeping part-completed projects - boards, components etc. and it would be good to have a rack to store them in.  (I tend to have a lot
of part-completed projects! :-)

In my previous place I had an angled shelf behind the bench with a lip on the front edge, to hold books, circuit diagrams and so on, so you can see the
documents without cluttering up the bench surface.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\09\24@224804 by John Chung

picon face
Exhaust for the soldering fumes? A rolling tray for
your scope? But I would focus on lighting and power
outlet first.

John

--- Howard Winter <.....HDRWKILLspamspam@spam@H2Org.demon.co.uk> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2006\09\25@031855 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Exhaust for the soldering fumes?

I was thinking of a kind of central 'vacuum' system. anyone got
experience with that?

> A rolling tray for your scope?

no, I'll buy me a small LCD scope. I did have a big big scope once, but
it broke down and I prefered PIC tinkering over valve repair.

> But I would focus on lighting and power
> outlet first.

It starts as an empty room, so I have the chance to prepare everything
before even the walls are re-finished.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\25@031855 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> An area for doing work with small parts would be good - a
> large-lens illuminated magnifier,

I already have one - IMHO lenses (both hand types and table mounted) and
desoldering braid are more important for hand SMD work than the iron.

> and a bench with a concave curved front surface that

nice idea! that's the type of ideas I was hoping to get.

> I use trays for keeping part-completed projects - boards,
> components etc. and it would be good to have a rack to store
> them in.  (I tend to have a lot
> of part-completed projects! :-)

Me too. They are in carton boxes now, piled high in front of what should
be accessible :(

> In my previous place I had an angled shelf behind the bench
> with a lip on the front edge, to hold books, circuit diagrams
> and so on, so you can see the
> documents without cluttering up the bench surface.

another nice idea

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\25@034336 by Mark Rages

face picon face
On 9/25/06, Wouter van Ooijen <wouterspamKILLspamvoti.nl> wrote:
>
> > In my previous place I had an angled shelf behind the bench
> > with a lip on the front edge, to hold books, circuit diagrams
> > and so on, so you can see the
> > documents without cluttering up the bench surface.
>
> another nice idea
>
> Wouter van Ooijen
>

I used closet-type wire shelving over the bench.  You can loop wires
through it. Above that are bookshelves.

I got the idea from this page (via the minilathe list):
http://www.logwell.com/capabilities/lab_pics.html

Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail
--
You think that it is a secret, but it never has been one.
 - fortune cookie

2006\09\25@034527 by Jinx

face picon face
> It starts as an empty room, so I have the chance to
> prepare everything before even the walls are re-finished

Can you hang shelves, monitors etc from the ceiling so
they won't take up floor or bench space

2006\09\25@075227 by Howard Winter

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Wouter,

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:18:49 +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>...
> It starts as an empty room, so I have the chance to prepare everything
> before even the walls are re-finished.

Then run cable trunking along the walls so that anything you find you need later can be added.  I don't think it's possible to predict exactly what you
may want in the future, so allowing for changes is a Good Thing!  I don't know what your budget is, but three-channel trunking at
just-above-benchtop level isn't very expensive (over here the Building Regs. say you can't have mains voltage and other stuff in the same channel).

A series of "panic button" switches to disconnect power supplies in a hurry can limit the amount of smoke-release when things don't go according to
plan.  Perhaps have particular sockets fed by these (colour coded or labelled) so that other items don't get switched off, such as magnifiers / lamps,
test equipment, computers.

The first thing you need to decide before serious construction starts is the height of your workbench.  Get the chair/stool you will be sitting on (one
with castors, so you can move up and down the bench without standing up and carrying it) and "practice" to work out the best height that fits with
it.  

Some jobs that need close visual inspection but don't take long (say drilling PCBs) may be better done standing up, so a higher-level work area
would be useful.  Your central vacuum should have a port there, to extract drill waste.  It could also be used to hold down PCBs being drilled, by
having holes through the table.  Did you know that MDF is porous, and small pieces can be used as a sacrificial support and will "transmit" the vaccum
to hold the PCB while you drill?  Paint or varnish the parts (edges at least) where you don't want the vacuum to act.

As well as the above and smoke-extraction, your central vacuum can be used for clearing debris off the bench - carefully!  You can get ports that
are designed to be at floor level and that open so that debris can be swept into them.  Mount one at the back of the bench and use it the same way.  
But obviously make sure nothing you want to keep is nearby!  :-)

Most people probably wouldn't need it, but since you have your web shop the suggestion of a backdrop-area for photography is a good one for you.  
You could even have a camera-mount fixed there, with the centre-of-shot marked on the backdrop with a dot so you can quickly position the subject
without using the viewfinder.

If you use VoIP via computer (Skype or whatever) you may want to mount a directional microphone and speakers on the wall behind the bench,
accoustically isolated from each other.  Then you can sit and chat hands-free while you work, without audio feedback.

Just some thoughts - I will probably have others!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\09\25@075449 by Howard Winter

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On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:41:37 +1200, Jinx wrote:

> Can you hang shelves, monitors etc from the ceiling so
> they won't take up floor or bench space

Or LCD monitors on wall-brackets, for the same reason!  
They used to be ridiculously expensive, but are coming down
in price nicely.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\09\25@080703 by Howard Winter

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picon face
Mark,

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 02:43:35 -0500, Mark Rages wrote:

> I got the idea from this page (via the minilathe list):
> http://www.logwell.com/capabilities/lab_pics.html

Wow - "Explosives magazines"???  How the other half live!  
:-)

The kitchen-paper roll holder is a nice touch.

I'm not sure about his wire-reel collection (in colour-code
order I see).  I'd hate to have to replace an empty reel
somewhere in the middle!  :-)

>From the pictures it's not clear if they are, but I'd have the
lathe(s?), drills, grinder etc. in a separate room from the
electronics.  Dust and swarf don't make for a good soldering
environment...

I don't know what the large fabric hopper-looking thing is.  
Originally I thought it was for plastic packing chips, but it
doesn't seem to be over a packing bench!

Cheers,



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\09\25@082836 by Tony Smith

picon face
> >...
> > It starts as an empty room, so I have the chance to prepare
> everything  
> >before even the walls are re-finished.
>
> A series of "panic button" switches to disconnect power
> supplies in a hurry can limit the amount of smoke-release
> when things don't go according to plan.  Perhaps have
> particular sockets fed by these (colour coded or labelled) so
> that other items don't get switched off, such as magnifiers /
> lamps, test equipment, computers.

You can buy magnetic switches.  This idea is you can only turn them on when
power is available.  If you have a blackout, the device doesn't restart when
the power comes back on.  Quite handy for things such as tables saws and
drill presses.  They're a bit pricey, so you might just have one to feed all
of the sharp/hot/spinning things.

Normal panic switches (e-stops, e for emergency) are quite cheap.  Look in
woodworking type shops for these.


{Quote hidden}

And put the compressor outside!  Damn noisy things.  You can use a
compressor as a vacuum pump, just hook it up to the inlet side, most have a
threaded hole for this, with no connector fitted.  Failing that, pull the
compressor out of an old fridge.  Not sure if they have the suction for a
vacuum table.  Good for silicone RTV moulds though.  Auto shops will sell
you vacuum hose, used on carburettors etc.

Rather than buy a big compressor, get two small ones and plumb them
together, or just use the tank off an old one for extra storage.  Good for
spray painting where volume counts more than pressure.  (Old wardrobes make
good spray cabinets.)  And use ABS piping, not PVC if you want cheap shop
air.  PVC fails with sharp bits going everywhere.

Tony

2006\09\25@085639 by Howard Winter

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Tony,

Having read my own post, I came up with the same idea:  :-)

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:27:55 +1000, Tony Smith wrote:

> You can buy magnetic switches.  This idea is you can only turn them on when
> power is available.  If you have a blackout, the device doesn't restart when
> the power comes back on.  Quite handy for things such as tables saws and
> drill presses.  They're a bit pricey, so you might just have one to feed all
> of the sharp/hot/spinning things.

They are available as accessories for machine tools (even router tables, which may be the cheapest way to buy them).  They're called "No-Volt
Release" (NVR) switches here.  Probably a good idea to divide the mains supply into three:

- Things which mustn't come on after a power cut (anything that moves or gets hot) fed by a NVR switch
- Things that you want to carry on working for some time into a power cut (computers, communications, some lights) fed by a UPS
- Things where it doesn't matter if they can come and go with the power (test equipment, room heaters, AirCon) fed from ordinary mains

The first may have a subset which is those things that you want to have an Emergency Power Off function, like PSUs for running experiments and
projects

{Quote hidden}

You can use this for vacuum hold-down, but don't use this as the vacuum system for removing drill debris!  You need a collection bin and proper
filtration for that, and compressors aren't expecting to find debris coming into their inlet.  You can use an ordinary vacuum cleaner for this, maybe
with a pre-collector/filter or a workshop dust extractor.  Either way you need to make sure that there is a reasonable airflow through the system,
since a lot of workshop extractors and all domestic vacuum cleaners that I'm aware of use the airflow to cool the motor.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\09\25@090552 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Then run cable trunking along the walls

The electrical stuff will be almost all on the 4m workbench, so I'll put
trunking below and/or above the table.

Monitors etc. from the ceiling: my wife would probably veto that, and it
is not very flexible, so I'll stick with monitors on the workbench and
table.

> The first thing you need to decide before serious
> construction starts is the height of your workbench.

I have a good (but small) workbench now, so I do know my optimal height
for normal work. But recently I did a lot of SMD PCB stuffing, and I got
a lot of pain in my neck from that (from looking straight down). Do any
of you use a higher table than normal, or some kind of 'work field
riser' for such work?

> Your central vacuum should have a port
> there, to extract drill waste.

Anyone got experience with DIY cental vacuum. Will an old vacuum cleaner
with adjustable power do, for 1. solder fumes 2. drill/saw dust? I would
guess OK for 1 but early death of the motor for 2.

> Did you know that MDF is porous, and small pieces can be used as a
sacrificial support
> and will "transmit" the vaccum
> to hold the PCB while you drill?  Paint or varnish the parts
> (edges at least) where you don't want the vacuum to act.

nice!

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\25@090803 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Jinx wrote:

>> It starts as an empty room, so I have the chance to
>> prepare everything before even the walls are re-finished
>
> Can you hang shelves, monitors etc from the ceiling so
> they won't take up floor or bench space

At least shelves you can mount to the wall, and maybe the monitors, too.
Hanging monitors from the ceiling is a really cool idea, though :)  


When I'm working at the bench, once in a while I dream a bit about getting
all the cables out of the way. (Mostly I'm talking about the cables that I
tend to move around: the cable to the soldering iron, scope probes,
multimeter probes, mini-drill, hot-glue pistol etc.)

Something like routing them all through some springs or so hanging from the
ceiling. The tricky thing here is that the force these "springs" apply to
the cables has to be constant (that is, independent of the extension of the
"spring"), and should be adjustable. I'm not sure such a thing exists.

Gerhard

2006\09\25@094216 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

> The electrical stuff will be almost all on the 4m workbench, so I'll put
> trunking below and/or above the table.

I have the constantly plugged in stuff connected under the table, and the
project or task dependent plugged in equipment connected above the table.
Above the table there are standard outlet bricks that have one switch per
brick, and a series of individually switched outlets. Those are handy.

Gerhard

2006\09\25@094811 by Dave Tweed

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Gerhard Fiedler <.....listsKILLspamspam.....connectionbrazil.com> wrote:
> Something like routing them all through some springs or so hanging from
> the ceiling. The tricky thing here is that the force these "springs" apply
> to the cables has to be constant (that is, independent of the extension of
> the "spring"), and should be adjustable. I'm not sure such a thing exists.

Sure, they're quite common. Just Google for "constant force spring".

The most common form is a steel tape, somewhat like a metal tape measure.

In fact, you may find that the cheap little pocket tape measures from your
local hardware store will meet your needs just fine.

They aren't typically "adjustable", however. But then, ordinary springs
with adjustable spring constants are rather rare, too. But perhaps you
could add an adjustable amount of drag to the mechanism to compensate.

-- Dave Tweed

2006\09\25@100318 by Howard Winter

face
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picon face
Gerhard,

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 10:05:41 -0300, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

{Quote hidden}

A servo-controlled winch?  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\09\25@102223 by Howard Winter

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Wouter,

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:05:29 +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>...
> Anyone got experience with DIY cental vacuum. Will an old vacuum cleaner
> with adjustable power do, for 1. solder fumes 2. drill/saw dust? I would
> guess OK for 1 but early death of the motor for 2.

There are a number of factors:

- Rating of the motor - most domestic equipment isn't designed for 16 hour workdays...
- Cooling - make sure there is airflow through the thing at all times (have a "leak" built into the system if you think this is an issue)
- Overfilling collection chamber and clogging of filters

For the latter you can have a pre-collector / filter - I built one using "cyclone" principles, using a 20litre plastic drum with a removeable lid.  Mount
the outlet to the vacuum cleaner in the centre of the lid, protruding slightly into the drum.  Mount the inlet from the bench pipework at one side, and
have a pipe inside that goes nearly to the bottom and then turns 90 degrees , and exits round the circumference of the drum.  This sets up circulation
of the air, and causes particles to centrifuge outwards and drop to the bottom of the drum, and relatively clean air to leave through the centre of the
vortex.  This works well with wood shavings, sawdust and swarf, and large particles of dust - fine dust still gets through, so you could incorporate a
filter over the exit pipe to deal with this.  I didn't, since my vacuum cleaner has HEPA filtering anyway and I don't create a lot of fine dust (I hate
sanding! :-)

Of course for fume-collecting there are other issues: Noise (can you install the vacuum cleaner outside the workshop?) and the fumes themselves -
you really need to filter them using an activated-charcoal filter, not just blow them into someone else's space!  :-)  This filter needs to be at the inlet
end, obviously, so it's not in the path of anything collected by function 2.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\09\25@102741 by Tony Smith

picon face
> When I'm working at the bench, once in a while I dream a bit
> about getting all the cables out of the way. (Mostly I'm
> talking about the cables that I tend to move around: the
> cable to the soldering iron, scope probes, multimeter probes,
> mini-drill, hot-glue pistol etc.)
>
> Something like routing them all through some springs or so
> hanging from the ceiling. The tricky thing here is that the
> force these "springs" apply to the cables has to be constant
> (that is, independent of the extension of the "spring"), and
> should be adjustable. I'm not sure such a thing exists.
>
> Gerhard


Negator springs are a way to get a constant force.  They're the flat metal
rolled up into a coil type (usually).  Most obvious spot is clocks, that's
the main spring.  Non-obvious spots are tape measures and those things you
hang name bades/door passes off.  Try measuring the force on one of them one
day  :).

Downside is getting the force 'just right', you need the vacuum cleaner
style, negator spring with a clutch.  Window blinds use a different method
but a similar result.

Tony

2006\09\25@104639 by Tony Smith

picon face
> Anyone got experience with DIY cental vacuum. Will an old
> vacuum cleaner with adjustable power do, for 1. solder fumes
> 2. drill/saw dust? I would guess OK for 1 but early death of
> the motor for 2.


More than you ever want to know:
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/DustCollectionIntroduction.cfm.

Most woodworkers are starting to use these, they are cyclone types (like the
Dyson vacuum cleaners), so they don't lose power.  The big stuff (chips) get
separated out first, the finer dust & fumes either hit a fine filter or get
vented outside to bother someone else.

Plenty of commercial options, you'd only need a small one, say 1HP.

Tony

2006\09\25@111300 by Timothy Weber

face picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> I have a good (but small) workbench now, so I do know my optimal height
> for normal work. But recently I did a lot of SMD PCB stuffing, and I got
> a lot of pain in my neck from that (from looking straight down). Do any
> of you use a higher table than normal, or some kind of 'work field
> riser' for such work?

I use a table that can be adjusted in height and tilt, though I seldom
do.  It also has a small lip for catching parts and a ruler printed near
the lip.  I think it came from a crafts store, actually, but it's also
somewhat similar to a drafting table.

Though I usually adjust the height of my chair instead of messing with
the table.
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org

2006\09\25@112651 by John Ferrell

face picon face
My ShopVac did not stand up to being used as a central vac. Probably
insufficient air flow. I am considering a central Vac not mounted in the
shop. The casters that come on home unit vacs are pretty shabby.

John Ferrell    W8CCW
"My Competition is not my enemy"
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2006\09\25@113559 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Yes, the same table that is used by an architect / mechanical engineer would
be cool. You can tilt it to vertical or horizontal and between them any
angle you want. Also there is a pen holder at the bottom, so that if any
component rolls down it ends up in the holder, so you do not need to search
for on the floor. You can raplace the ruler by a magnifier glass, and then
you pin up the PCB for working on it :-) The other end of the table you can
pin up the schematics etc.

Tamas


On 25/09/06, Timothy Weber <EraseMEtwspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTtimothyweber.org> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\09\25@115749 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
On 9/25/06, Wouter van Ooijen <wouterspamspam_OUTvoti.nl> wrote:
> I have a good (but small) workbench now, so I do know my optimal height
> for normal work. But recently I did a lot of SMD PCB stuffing, and I got
> a lot of pain in my neck from that (from looking straight down). Do any
> of you use a higher table than normal, or some kind of 'work field
> riser' for such work?

For fine pitch SMD work I use a binocular microscope.  You don't have
to look straight down on the board through a magnifier.

It's a worthwhile investment if you have to do SMD inspection or assembly.

-Adam

2006\09\25@120420 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Yes, the same table that is used by an architect / mechanical
> engineer would be cool.

I don't think so. I like my table to be fixed and flat, so it can have
holes for cabling to a below-the-table duct, and those small round SMD
don't roll down! And behind the table will be stands for tooling, books,
component cabinets etc, titling the table would obscure some of these!

If I need a higher table level (I am not sure this would be handy, but
it might be worth a try) I'd rather use a temporary 'table raiser' on
top of it.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\25@125423 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> For fine pitch SMD work I use a binocular microscope.  You don't have
> to look straight down on the board through a magnifier.

Yes, I know those things. When I was young we used them to study small
insects. Should not be too expensive (at least compared to an LCD
o'scope).

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\25@131352 by Ariel Rocholl

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Binocular microscope of 20x (more than enough) are not expensive at all. I
bought one (new) from eBay for about 30€, I guess is a very good tool to
work with SMD for that price. The drawback: you will see everything with
great detail, forget about thinking you have some "perfect" soldering
technic, as you will clearly see even the smallest defects.

2006/9/25, Wouter van Ooijen <@spam@wouterKILLspamspamvoti.nl>:
>
> > For fine pitch SMD work I use a binocular microscope.  You don't have
> > to look straight down on the board through a magnifier.
>
> Yes, I know those things. When I was young we used them to study small
> insects. Should not be too expensive (at least compared to an LCD
> o'scope).


--
Ariel Rocholl
Madrid, Spain

2006\09\25@132430 by Howard Winter

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Ariel,

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:13:50 +0200, Ariel Rocholl wrote:

> Binocular microscope of 20x (more than enough) are not expensive at all. I
> bought one (new) from eBay for about 30Ç, I guess is a very good tool to
> work with SMD for that price. The drawback: you will see everything with
> great detail, forget about thinking you have some "perfect" soldering
> technic, as you will clearly see even the smallest defects.

I find that 20x is too much magnification - I made sure the one I bought could go down to 5x and I find that's the most useful.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\09\25@133202 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
My 6x magnifier works for me perfect. I found it better than a microscope as
you do not have to 'touch' your face into it, just see the stuff above the
instrument and have enough space to operate under it. Maybe a higher
magnification would be better to check the soldering though, but for that
you can get a 20x jewel magnifier at around 20 euros (or 10x for 5), maybe
on eBay even less.

Tamas


On 25/09/06, Ariel Rocholl <KILLspamarochollKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2006\09\25@134036 by John Chung

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Which scope do you intend to buy?

John

--- Wouter van Ooijen <spamBeGonewouterspamBeGonespamvoti.nl> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2006\09\25@135958 by Dominic Stratten

picon face
I used to use a Canon camcorder hooked into a PC TV card on the computer. I
could then zoom in with the Macro facility on the camcorder and watch what I
was doing on the 17" LCD screen.

Worked quite well.

Dom
{Original Message removed}

2006\09\25@153740 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Which scope do you intend to buy?

TDS2014

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\25@163527 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Dave Tweed wrote:

>> Something like routing them all through some springs or so hanging from
>> the ceiling. The tricky thing here is that the force these "springs" apply
>> to the cables has to be constant (that is, independent of the extension of
>> the "spring"), and should be adjustable. I'm not sure such a thing exists.
>
> Sure, they're quite common. Just Google for "constant force spring".

Thanks... knowing the right term is worth a lot :)

> In fact, you may find that the cheap little pocket tape measures from your
> local hardware store will meet your needs just fine.

Good idea. Worth a try...

> They aren't typically "adjustable", however. But then, ordinary springs
> with adjustable spring constants are rather rare, too. But perhaps you
> could add an adjustable amount of drag to the mechanism to compensate.

If you mean with "drag" a friction on the outgoing part of the spring,
that's probably not really helpful. While it reduces the retracting force
of the spring, it also increases the force needed to pull the cable.


Howard wrote:

> A servo-controlled winch?  :-)

Maybe instead simply a small DC motor. Should give me an adjustable force;
at least at the stall point, and since the force decreases with increasing
speed, that's probably not a practical problem.

Thanks,
Gerhard

2006\09\25@203727 by Jim Korman

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face
Howard Winter wrote:
> Wouter,
>
> On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:18:49 +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>
>> ...
>> It starts as an empty room, so I have the chance to prepare everything
>> before even the walls are re-finished.
> Some jobs that need close visual inspection but don't take long (say drilling PCBs) may be better done standing up, so a higher-level work area
> would be useful.  Your central vacuum should have a port there, to extract drill waste.  It could also be used to hold down PCBs being drilled, by
> having holes through the table.  Did you know that MDF is porous, and small pieces can be used as a sacrificial support and will "transmit" the vaccum
> to hold the PCB while you drill?  Paint or varnish the parts (edges at least) where you don't want the vacuum to act.
> Cheers,
>
>
> Howard Winter
> St.Albans, England
>
Warning from my woodworker's magazine.

DO NOT PUT SHOP WASTE INTO THE HOUSEHOLD VACUUM!

Always into its own vacuum system and container, preferably metal. You never
know what will be hot enough to spark a fire.

Jim

2006\09\25@203946 by Jinx

face picon face
> > A servo-controlled winch?  :-)
>
> Maybe instead simply a small DC motor. Should give me
> an adjustable force; at least at the stall point, and since the
> force decreases with increasing speed, that's probably not
> a practical problem

I recall a post from a looong time ago from someone who wanted
(I think) to make a monitor appear from out of a false ceiling. The
query ISTR was more about the s/w (end-stops etc) rather than
the mechanics. I believe he was using Archimedes screws (ie like
the square-cut drive screws on a lathe bed)

2006\09\25@235018 by John Chung

picon face
Try to look at the TDS2xxxB. Comes with USB
connectivity and does not require the extra comm.
module.

John

--- Wouter van Ooijen <TakeThisOuTwouterEraseMEspamspam_OUTvoti.nl> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2006\09\26@040837 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>> Sure, they're quite common. Just Google for "constant force spring".
>
>Thanks... knowing the right term is worth a lot :)

The sort of thing you are after is surely those "hang from roof" things they
use for small power tools on production lines. Not sure that they are not
much more than a long soft spring of appropriate tension for the weight of
the tool, and doesn't take a lot of pull from the operator to pull it down
from the equilibrium position to the work piece.

2006\09\26@050046 by Mohit M. (Lists)

picon face
>Digital microscopes that output to either a computer (can you say Web
>Cam?)
>or a standard video signal are not very expensive nowadays.

Or if you have a lathe around, you could do what this guy has done...
http://www.truetex.com/micad.htm
...and tether the camera to a TV.


Mohit.


{Original Message removed}

2006\09\26@051119 by Howard Winter

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flavicon
picon face
Jinx,

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 12:33:44 +1200, Jinx wrote:

> I recall a post from a looong time ago from someone who wanted
> (I think) to make a monitor appear from out of a false ceiling. The
> query ISTR was more about the s/w (end-stops etc) rather than
> the mechanics. I believe he was using Archimedes screws (ie like
> the square-cut drive screws on a lathe bed)

Ah, that would be Acme threads (cue the Roadrunner! :-)  The only trouble with them in a domestic environment is that they're pretty noisy.  
Presumably he didn't have the rods poking down from the ceiling all the time, which would mean he'd need their height above the ceiling for when
they were retracted - fine if there isn't a room above!

Cheers,



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\09\26@061020 by Jinx

face picon face
> Ah, that would be Acme threads (cue the Roadrunner! :-)
>  The only trouble with them in a domestic environment is
> that they're pretty noisy

Would they be, if greased ? I don't know if they still make
windows with the screw opener-closerer. Probably do,
didn't stop making them just because I stopped noticing.
I remember top windows at school when I was a mixed infant
(still not thoroughly unmixed - work in progress) that you had
to crank with a long pole

A winch, as you suggested, would be fairly easy. I made a
curtain opener for someone once, (hmm whatever happened
to THAT little money-spinner ?) and that needed about 3kg
pulling force, bi-directional. Which doesn't sound a lot for a
hooman but is for a small motor. I found the motor & gearbox
from a very cheap 14.4V cordless drill worked great. Used
thin nylon rope (2.5mm ?), bit stretchy but OK

But this is all assuming that Mr Davis actually wants things to
disappear. Good trick if you can do it, impresses visitors and
whatnot

2006\09\26@075902 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Howard Winter wrote:

>> I believe he was using Archimedes screws (ie like the square-cut drive
>> screws on a lathe bed)
>
> Ah, that would be Acme threads (cue the Roadrunner! :-)  

I had to look that up to know what you guys were talking about :)

Archimedes screw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes'_screw

Acme thread (different from square thread):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acme_Thread_Form

> Presumably he didn't have the rods poking down from the ceiling all the
> time, which would mean he'd need their height above the ceiling for when
> they were retracted - fine if there isn't a room above!

Yes, that's the problem with this, for what I want to use them at least.
It's also quite a bit more involved than a simple winch, and the friction
forces (which create a difference between up and down movement) are
probably considerable.

Gerhard

2006\09\26@080815 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Alan B. Pearce wrote:

>>> Sure, they're quite common. Just Google for "constant force spring".
>>
>>Thanks... knowing the right term is worth a lot :)
>
> The sort of thing you are after is surely those "hang from roof" things they
> use for small power tools on production lines.

Yes, something similar.

> Not sure that they are not much more than a long soft spring of
> appropriate tension for the weight of the tool, and doesn't take a lot
> of pull from the operator to pull it down from the equilibrium position
> to the work piece.

Yes, the longer the spring, the closer it is to a constant force spring.
It's about a 1:2 ratio (ceiling to equilibrium position vs work position).
Maybe that's workable, if it's just the wires that I hang there. Won't work
well with a mini-drill or so, probably.

Thanks,
Gerhard

2006\09\26@082754 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Acme thread (different from square thread):
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acme_Thread_Form

Wow, that leads one into a whole cornucopia of info on threads. Thanks for
the link.

2006\09\26@085529 by Jinx

face picon face
> > I believe he was using Archimedes screws (ie like the square-
> > cut drive screws on a lathe bed)

> > Ah, that would be Acme threads (cue the Roadrunner! :-)  

Yes, it would

"The Acme thread form uses a 29 degree pitch with flat apex and
valley. The Acme screw thread is stronger than V-profile 60 degree
threads. Wear can be compensated for with a "split nut". Typically
found where large loads or accuracy is required as in vises or the
lead screw of a lathe"

It was described to me once as an Archimedes screw, and that's
what I assumed it was called, but an Archimedes screw is more
like an auger (eg post-hole borer)

I'm sure I've seen big lead screws with zero pitch, ie take a rod
and spiral square bar around it. One project many years ago
might have needed a platform height adjustment and I enquired
about such a screw. It've had to be machined specially and
horrifically expensive, in that order

(PS, sorry, it was Gerhard doing the lab, M. Adam Davis
is Pimp My Crib)

2006\09\26@101744 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Alan,

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:27:51 +0100, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

> >Acme thread (different from square thread):
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acme_Thread_Form
>
> Wow, that leads one into a whole cornucopia of info on threads. Thanks for
> the link.

Indeed - I'm beginning to wonder if I should quote my occupation as "Web Surfer!"  :-)

The Acme thread is the Volkwagen Beetle of the rotary-to-linear motion world, the Rolls-Royce is the Ballscrew.  Frighteningly expensive, they have
incredibly low friction and a high pitch-angle - an inch per turn isn't unusual - and are very smooth and accurate.  They are also bi-directional
(pushing the "nut" will turn the thread as well as the reverse) whereas an Acme thread isn't, which means that mounted vertically the nut would
travel to the bottom unless the shaft is prevented from rotating.  

Excellent for CNC machine movements, complete overkill in the context of the problem we're discussing, but I though I'd add it in anyway!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\09\26@120604 by Aaron

picon face


Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

>The tricky thing here is that the force these "springs" apply to
>the cables has to be constant (that is, independent of the extension of the
>"spring"), and should be adjustable. I'm not sure such a thing exists.
>
>Gerhard
>  
>

Google "Tool Balancer"

Or check out part number 6739A41 on http://www.mcmastercarr.com

Aaron

2006\09\26@131426 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
On 9/24/06, Wouter van Ooijen <RemoveMEwouterspamTakeThisOuTvoti.nl> wrote:
> The next months we will move to a new home. Big move, about 1 km :) But
> it is much larger, and I claimed part of that increase in room. So I'll
> be making making me a new lab/storage/order-handling room. I guess you
> guys have a few tips? Room is ~ 5x5m, 2.5m high. It is mostly for me,


 until Floortje will say it's too large just for you and your
customers, while there is no room for her flowers or for your boys
toys... :)
Let me tell you a trick: if it's a new house with some unfinished
things, let your room to be by purpose a little bit ugly, keep
something insignifiant for your utility but important for your wife,
unfinished for ever...
I still have a 5.5x4m room only for me...

Vasile

2006\09\26@133927 by Michael Noel

flavicon
face
Puteti sa-mi dati adresa dvs de email pe care sa va pot scrie?
sorry, please ignore this message.

Michael Noel
Creative Electronics

{Original Message removed}

2006\09\26@144447 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>   until Floortje will say it's too large just for you and your
> customers, while there is no room for her flowers or for your boys
> toys... :)

Actually it's me gradually trying to take over the rest of the house,
which I had to promise not to do in the next house.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\26@151849 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Aaron wrote:

> Google "Tool Balancer"
>
> Or check out part number 6739A41 on http://www.mcmastercarr.com

Ha... Now that's /the/ term to search for :)  Nothing like knowing the
names of things.

Thanks,
Gerhard

2006\09\26@152128 by Steve Smith

flavicon
face
Me too... Office at work Full to the ceiling workshop at home (not used
often due to lack of floor space) filled up with alloy wheels from me trike
now taken to the dining room by me PC and that's loosing the flat space
(must scrap 2 laser printers both broke cheeper to replace) and put another
tool box in the utility room and unclutter the washing machine.....

Then pacify the Dragon (must buy bigger house will have more room for
"stuff")

Rgds Steve

{Original Message removed}

2006\09\28@103937 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Sep 25, 2006, at 7:46 AM, Tony Smith wrote:

>> Anyone got experience with DIY cental vacuum.

> Most woodworkers are starting to use these...

Do watch noise levels.  A woodworking shop class vacuum designed
to suck sawdust from production level woodworking equipment is
likely to be very noisy, and severe overkill if you had in mind
getting rid of solder fumes and the sort of small scale dust that
electronics-style manufacturing tends to produce.  The wood shop
at my daughter's school has a fancy vacuum system capable of sucking
sawdust from a half-dozen stations, and it's so noisy that they can't
run it (neighboring classrooms complain) except for end-of-day cleanup,
much less during normal use.

BillW

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