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'[EE]: sensing a isolated switches'
2003\08\07@161532 by Wouter van Ooijen

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I want so sense the state (open/closed) of a number of switches. The
switches must be isolated from my circuit and from each other. Thers is
as yet no power available with each switch. One way would be to include
a small DC/DC converter and optocoupler for each switch, but this feels
like overkill. Another way might be to use a small transformer (as used
in a modem) with the switch at one side and measuring the inductance on
the other side. Any experience with this method? Other suggestions?

Wouter van Ooijen

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2003\08\07@164338 by Olin Lathrop

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> I want so sense the state (open/closed) of a number of switches. The
> switches must be isolated from my circuit and from each other. Thers is
> as yet no power available with each switch. One way would be to include
> a small DC/DC converter and optocoupler for each switch, but this feels
> like overkill. Another way might be to use a small transformer (as used
> in a modem) with the switch at one side and measuring the inductance on
> the other side. Any experience with this method?

Nope, but the basic concept sounds reasonable.  Small pulse transformers
will probably be smaller and should be obtainable in a wider variety of
isolation voltages.  The modem transformers or maybe ethernet transformers
may be cheaper due to the high volume.


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2003\08\07@171536 by Robert Rolf

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You'll find that ethernet transformers don't work well below 10mHz.
Modem tranformers are a good choice because they have a high isolation
breakdown voltage (1500 or better).
Small audio transformers would also work but won't have the breakdown
spec.

The detection method can be as simple as looking at the change in
rise time on the primary when the secondary is shorted by the switch.
(1k:8ohm xformer)

R

Olin Lathrop wrote:
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2003\08\07@174935 by Olin Lathrop

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> You'll find that ethernet transformers don't work well below 10mHz.

Yeah, but you only need to send a quick pulse to test whether the
secondary is shorted or not.  An ethernet transformer will allow the test
to be done with a short pulse.


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2003\08\07@184020 by Josh Koffman

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If you poke around, there are some ethernet transformers designed for
use in hubs and switches that come in SMD packages and have multiple (8
or so) transformers per package.

Josh
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Olin Lathrop wrote:
> The modem transformers or maybe ethernet transformers
> may be cheaper due to the high volume.

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2003\08\07@190721 by Bob Axtell

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My suggestion is to determine switch closure by a severe change in impedance.

Purchase a small toroidal choke for each input channel. Then wind another
isolated10 turns of #26 magnet wire on each coil, and send both wire ends
out to be connected remotely by each switch. Toroids are a necessity,
because they don't interact with each other very much (flux is
self-contained). These are available all over the place both new and
surplus. Dip each toroid to keep the new winding from moving or unraveling.
I think the coil should be about 1mH for good LF operation.

On the PCB, the PIC will control the sweep of an analog multiplexer, which
will rotate the connection of a simple oscillator to each coil. If you
design it right, you will use GND as a common pin to each toroid, so each
one can be selected on the "hot" side only.

The oscillator can be a simple LC oscillator, but try to keep the freq very
low, like 100hz-1Khz, in order to reduce capacitive effects and radiation.
The idea is to measure the current required to MAINTAIN the oscillation;
when the remote switch is closed, the shorted turns will dramatically
reduce the Q of the toroid, possibly even stopping it. But in any case, the
OSC current will INCREASE when the remote switch is closed, and you can
detect that current with the PIC A/D converter .

You will need to breadboard the oscillator circuit and the number of turns
ahead of time.

The cable to the remote switch will need to be twisted pair to reduce
radiation. The length can be considerable (100 m or more) if the osc freq
is low.  The switch will attach across the pair, normally open. When it is
closed, it will shortout the flux of the the toroid and change the osc
current, which can be detected.

BTW: Be careful if you PCB-mount the toroids; the copper around / under
them will affect the oscillator, too. Try to mount them upright, above the
PCB, if possible.

Sounds like fun!

--Bob

At 10:14 PM 8/7/2003 +0200, you wrote:
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2003\08\10@073202 by M. Adam Davis

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Can you use magnetic/reed switches for the application?  What problem
are you trying to solve by isolating the switches from the circuit and
each other?

-Adam

Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

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2003\08\10@075918 by Mike Harrison

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On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 07:31:42 -0400, you wrote:

>Can you use magnetic/reed switches for the application?  What problem
>are you trying to solve by isolating the switches from the circuit and
>each other?
>
>-Adam
>
>Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>
>>I want so sense the state (open/closed) of a number of switches. The
>>switches must be isolated from my circuit and from each other. Thers is
>>as yet no power available with each switch. One way would be to include
>>a small DC/DC converter and optocoupler for each switch, but this feels
>>like overkill. Another way might be to use a small transformer (as used
>>in a modem) with the switch at one side and measuring the inductance on
>>the other side. Any experience with this method? Other suggestions?
>
The transformer method should work pretty well - you should get a very easily detectable change when
the switch closes - I wouldnlt bother with inductance though - I'd probably do it by applying an AC
signal (from PIC) to the winding and sensing the current, or the voltage the other side of a series
resistor. For multiple switches, you can get multiple pulse transformers in a single DIL package.
For something very cheap, look at magnetics designed for 10-base-T ethernet - these are made by the
gazillion and so probably cost a few cents. May be hard to find in small quantities but you could
always cannibalise a few net cards.
You might be able to make detection even easier using a capacitor to form a tuned circuit with the
transformer winding, whicch would be heavily damped when the other winding is shorted. If you excite
it at its resonant frequency, I'd guess you'd get a very easily detectable change in impedance.
I'd guess you wouldn't need more than a few R's, Cs and a diode to make this work with a PIC,
possibly with the help of an  ADC input

Another way would be to make a colpitts oscillator with the transformer winding - this would
probably stop oscillating completely if the transformer secondary were shorted.

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