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'[EE]: battery charge resistor value ?'
2011\11\11@115918 by Andre Abelian

picon face
Hi all,

in my board I have 2 AA batterys that I want to use rechargeable battery instead and connect to
5 volt power coming from outside make it slow charge. the schematic is simple "slow charge"


-+5------A--diode-K---resistor---------Bat+
5v                                                2.4v rechargeable  

--------GND----------------------------Bat- 

A= anode
K = cathode 


since there is no auto shut down etc I want to use it as continuously slow charge but not going to 
over charge the battery. my board run time takes 5 ma and when wireless is on it takes 100ma
2.4v power is connected to boost circuit and output is 3.3v to pic.
my question is what resistor value should I use that slow charging is going to happen
and no thing will blow or burn? 

any idea?

thanks

Andre

2011\11\11@122200 by Bob Blick

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face

Hi Andre,

Nicad batteries can take up to 1/10 C continuous current. Nimh(except
for a few specialized versions) can't take continuous charging at that
rate, you will be lucky to get 6 months from most. But if you keep it to
1/200 or 1/100 C you will be OK if the batteries charge at all with such
low current(they must be quality cells).

Assuming 2.9 volts fully charged and .5 volts diode drop, that is 3.4
volts. The resistor voltage is 5 - 3.4 = 1.6 volts. 1500 mah nimh
battery charged at 1/100 C is 15 ma, so the resistor is 1.6 / .015 = 106
ohms. Resistor power is low, 1.6 * .015 = .024 watts.

So use 100 ohms and see how it goes.

Or as a fun exercise, replace the diode with an LED and substitute the
higher LED voltage into the calculations. Red is about 1.6 volts.

Friendly regards,

Bob


On Friday, November 11, 2011 7:57 AM, "Andre Abelian"  wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different...

2011\11\11@123439 by John Ferrell

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On 11/11/2011 10:57 AM, Andre Abelian wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I like C/15 or C/20 where C is the battery's rated capacity for NiCad or NiMh chemistry.
AA's are usually about 2 amp batteries now days so it might be even safer with a C/40 rate without compromising circuit operation.

It is prudent to install the batteries in a plastic bag to minimize the impact of failure in any case.


-- John Ferrell W8CCW
"The man who complains about the way the
ball bounces is likely to be the one who dropped it."

2011\11\11@125916 by Andre Abelian

picon face
Bob,

thanks for the info. I will try that.

Andre 



________________________________
From: Bob Blick <spam_OUTbobblickTakeThisOuTspamftml.net>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <.....piclistKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: [EE]: battery charge resistor value ?

Hi Andre,

Nicad batteries can take up to 1/10 C continuous current. Nimh(except
for a few specialized versions) can't take continuous charging at that
rate, you will be lucky to get 6 months from most. But if you keep it to
1/200 or 1/100 C you will be OK if the batteries charge at all with such
low current(they must be quality cells).

Assuming 2.9 volts fully charged and .5 volts diode drop, that is 3.4
volts. The resistor voltage is 5 - 3.4 = 1.6 volts. 1500 mah nimh
battery charged at 1/100 C is 15 ma, so the resistor is 1.6 / .015 = 106
ohms. Resistor power is low, 1.6 * .015 = .024 watts.

So use 100 ohms and see how it goes.

Or as a fun exercise, replace the diode with an LED and substitute the
higher LED voltage into the calculations. Red is about 1.6 volts.

Friendly regards,

Bob


On Friday, November 11, 2011 7:57 AM, "Andre Abelian"  wrote:
{Quote hidden}

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different...

2011\11\11@130101 by Andre Abelian

picon face
John,

thank you 

Andre


________________________________
From: John Ferrell <jferrell13spamKILLspamtriad.rr.com>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <.....piclistKILLspamspam.....mit.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: [EE]: battery charge resistor value ?

On 11/11/2011 10:57 AM, Andre Abelian wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I like C/15 or C/20 where C is the battery's rated capacity for NiCad or NiMh chemistry.
AA's are usually about 2 amp batteries now days so it might be even safer with a C/40 rate without compromising circuit operation.

It is prudent to install the batteries in a plastic bag to minimize the impact of failure in any case.


-- John Ferrell W8CCW
"The man who complains about the way the
ball bounces is likely to be the one who dropped it."
 

2011\11\11@140320 by RussellMc

face picon face
> in my board I have 2 AA batterys that I want to use rechargeable battery instead and connect to
> 5 volt power coming from outside make it slow charge.
> since there is no auto shut down etc I want to use it as continuously slow charge but not going to
> over charge the battery. my board run time takes 5 ma and when wireless is on it takes 100ma
> 2.4v power is connected to boost circuit and output is 3.3v to pic.
> my question is what resistor value should I use that slow charging is going to happen
> and no thing will blow or burn?

I'll assume NimH as NiCd are legal or discouraged due to ROHS issues
(due to Cadmium content.)

Modern NimH AA cells above about say 2000 mAh are not suitable for
trickle charging long term at even very very low rates. In the fight
to fit more active material in they have removed the ability for the
cell to recombine Hydrogen and Oxygen to reform water when the cell
"gases" when charged when already fully charged. Even a very very low
continuous rate will destroy them.

_____

If you use low capacity AA NimH cells - say below 1500 mAh and
preferably <= 1200 mAh, you will be able to "trickle charge them
continually at say /20 rate. So for 1200 mAh = 1200/20 = <= 60 mA

Fully charged voltage of a NimH cell at room temperature is a nominal 1.45V..
Charging them to somewhat less reduces their capacity but improves the
cycle life.
So say 1.3 to 1.35V per cell if you don't mind the loss in capacity.

If you use a 1 amp rated low voltage Schottky such an a 1N5817 you can
expect 0.3V diode drop at low currents like this. Going to even a
1N5819 increases that to say 0.4V at low current.

You can work out resistor value from the above BUT doing it this way
is a compromise.

________________

BETTER:

A substantial improvement at modest cost can be achieved by putting a
voltage clamp after the resistor and before the diode  - like a zener
but much sharper in action. If you set this to 2 x Vcell + 0.3 the
battery will completely stop charging  when this voltage is reached. I
used 0.3V for the Schottky diode as there will be about zero current
flow. So if Vclamp = 2 x 1.35 + 0.3 = 3 Volt the battery will be able
to be "trickle charged" at whatever rate desired and will cutoff when
charged.

A TL431 in TO92 package requires 2 resistors + the IC to form a clamp,
ON Semi TO92 180 C/W junction to ambient, 85 C/W junction to case.
http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/TL431-D.PDF


180 C/W and 100 mA max.
At say 20 mA Pd = 20mA x 3V = 60 mW
Temperature rise = 180 x 0.06 = 11 degrees C
50 mA =~ 30 degrees C.

Use fig 18 for up to say 50 ma. For higher currents add a jellybean
PNP and one more resistor.



        Russell McMaho

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