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PICList Thread
'[EE]: USB options for a hobbyist'
2001\10\15@162718 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

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What are the currently available options for a PIC hobbyist to go USB? I
have found the philips PDIUSBD11 ($3.05 at arrow). Anything cheaper? Is the
USB-PIC available yet? Is a price set for it?

Wouter van Ooijen

Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
Jal compiler for PIC uC's:  http://www.xs4all.nl/~wf/wouter/pic/jal

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2001\10\15@172830 by Andrew Warren

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wouter van ooijen & floortje hanneman <spam_OUTPICLISTTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu> wrote:

> What are the currently available options for a PIC hobbyist to go
> USB?

   Wouter:

   WARNING!  I'm not totally unbiased, as I work for Cypress
   Semiconductor, the leading manufacturer of USB microprocessors.

   The only USB-capable PIC in production is low-speed only, and it
   costs more than comparable chips from other vendors.

> I have found the philips PDIUSBD11 ($3.05 at arrow).

   Yuck.

> Anything cheaper?

   You might want to look at Cypress's USB micros; we have a full
   line, from the low-speed chips that are used in
   Microsoft/Logitech/Apple mice all the way up to high-speed (480
   Mbit/sec) USB micros.

   The low-speed micros are REALLY cheap, and they need no external
   oscillator, reset circuit, etc.

> Is the USB-PIC available yet? Is a price set for it?

   The full-speed (12 Mbit/sec) PIC?  No, not available yet.

   -Andy


=== Andrew Warren -- .....aiwKILLspamspam@spam@cypress.com
=== Principal Design Engineer
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation
===
=== Opinions expressed above do not
=== necessarily represent those of
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation

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2001\10\15@181854 by Chetan Bhargava

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Hi Andy,

I have done a small research on Cypress USB devices and found that they are
only available in OTP (not even window cerdip). People at Cypress suggested
me to buy a development kit and that is too expensive for a hobbyist. I
would say that even the PIC is low speed, but good for a hobbyist. USB PIC
is available in window cerdip and soon be available with flash ! :)

Thanks.

Chetan Bhargava

{Original Message removed}

2001\10\15@183555 by Andrew Warren

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Chetan Bhargava <PICLISTspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu> wrote:

> I have done a small research on Cypress USB devices and found that
> they are only available in OTP (not even window cerdip). People at
> Cypress suggested me to buy a development kit and that is too
> expensive for a hobbyist. I would say that even the PIC is low
> speed, but good for a hobbyist. USB PIC is available in window
> cerdip and soon be available with flash ! :)

Chetan:

True, Cypress's low-speed USB micros are available only in OTP.
Mostly, that's because those parts are designed for use in very high-
volume applications like mice and keyboards, so the cost of an
emulator and/or a few tubes of OTP parts is trivial.

If you're a hobbyist who wants to make a USB device, though, I would
HIGHLY recommend Cypress's full-speed "EZ-USB" micros over the low-
speed parts.  Low-speed USB is dumb; full- and high-speed USB
(especially with the "smart" SIE in the EZ-USB parts) is MUCH nicer.

The EZ-USB parts are RAM-based, so you only need to buy one.  Code is
downloaded to them either over the USB connection or from a serial
EEPROM.

An EZ-USB development kit is available from Cypress for around $400;
if that's too expensive, there are a number of third-parties who sell
<$100 EZ-USB development boards.

-Andy


=== Andrew Warren -- .....aiwKILLspamspam.....cypress.com
=== Principal Design Engineer
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation
===
=== Opinions expressed above do not
=== necessarily represent those of
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2001\10\15@203310 by Herbert Graf
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> True, Cypress's low-speed USB micros are available only in OTP.
> Mostly, that's because those parts are designed for use in very high-
> volume applications like mice and keyboards, so the cost of an
> emulator and/or a few tubes of OTP parts is trivial.
>
> If you're a hobbyist who wants to make a USB device, though, I would
> HIGHLY recommend Cypress's full-speed "EZ-USB" micros over the low-
> speed parts.  Low-speed USB is dumb; full- and high-speed USB
> (especially with the "smart" SIE in the EZ-USB parts) is MUCH nicer.
>
> The EZ-USB parts are RAM-based, so you only need to buy one.  Code is
> downloaded to them either over the USB connection or from a serial
> EEPROM.
>
> An EZ-USB development kit is available from Cypress for around $400;
> if that's too expensive, there are a number of third-parties who sell
> <$100 EZ-USB development boards.

       Unfortunately that still remains WAY to expensive for a hobbiest. I'm not
trying to slam the product of the company you work for, but as a hobbiest
myself spending $100 on a product that I may not find good for my uses is
simply not worth it. It cost me a total of about $10 to start with PICs, and
that was the cost of the PIC. Just my opinion. TTYL

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2001\10\15@205149 by Andrew Warren

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Herbert Graf <EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu> wrote:

> [$100 for a development board] still remains WAY to expensive for a
> hobbiest. .... It cost me a total of about $10 to start with PICs,
> and that was the cost of the PIC.

Herbert:

Ok, so you already had a power supply, LEDs, breadboard, oscillator,
etc., so starting with PICs only cost $10.

If you already have that stuff, starting with the EZ-USB is just as
inexpensive; the dev boards are really only necessary for people who
need a complete, assembled board.

-Andy, who really didn't mean for this to become an EZ-USB discussion


=== Andrew Warren -- aiwspamspam_OUTcypress.com
=== Principal Design Engineer
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation
===
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=== necessarily represent those of
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2001\10\15@210717 by Scott Newell

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>If you already have that stuff, starting with the EZ-USB is just as
>inexpensive; the dev boards are really only necessary for people who
>need a complete, assembled board.

Then I'm gonna look into it too.


>-Andy, who really didn't mean for this to become an EZ-USB discussion

I, for one, am glad it did.


newell

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2001\10\15@232223 by Bob Ammerman

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Andrew is being a little bit unfair here, because the low-speed USB PIC,
which is all you typically need for HID devices, _is_ available. For
example, at http://www.digikey.com:

PIC16C745-I/SP is available for 8.60 in singles.

This chip has 8K of instructions, 256 bytes of RAM, 22 i/o pins, 5 channel
8bit A/D, runs at 20Mhz and fits in a 28 pin package.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)


{Original Message removed}

2001\10\15@232459 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
Again I'll differ with Andy. With the sample code mChip was going to put on
their website (at least they promised it would be posted when I took the USB
class at the Masters) it would be VERY EASY for a relative beginner to get a
HID device working with the mChip devices.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)



{Original Message removed}

2001\10\16@145132 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

picon face
Speed is not an issue for me, at the moment I am interested in low-speed
things that would 'traditionally' use a serial port like a PIC programmer,
F877 bootloader, DMX interface etc. 'low' speed USB is quite high-speed for
this type of applications!

So the Cypress USB micro's might be interesting, but where can I buy a few
(<10) and at what price?

The USB PIC is another alternative, but not very cheap. And I'll wait for a
flash version.

An any other solutions?

Wouter van Ooijen

Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
Jal compiler for PIC uC's:  http://www.xs4all.nl/~wf/wouter/pic/jal

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2001\10\16@183237 by Josh Koffman

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> Speed is not an issue for me, at the moment I am interested in low-speed
> things that would 'traditionally' use a serial port like a PIC programmer,
> F877 bootloader, DMX interface etc. 'low' speed USB is quite high-speed

<snip>

Just out of curiousity, have you done any DMX work already Wouter?

Josh Koffman

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2001\10\16@190227 by Wollenberg, Frank

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Andrew Warren [@spam@aiwKILLspamspamCYPRESS.COM] wrote

>     You might want to look at Cypress's USB micros; we have a full
>     line, from the low-speed chips that are used in
>     Microsoft/Logitech/Apple mice all the way up to high-speed (480
>     Mbit/sec) USB micros.

Andrew,
what about development tools (assembler, C-compiler, simulator, emulator)?
What are their prices (round about) ?

Regards,
Frank

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2001\10\16@193319 by Walter Banks

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There is a C compiler/assembler mice and keyboard reference designs
on the Cypress WEB site.

w..


"Wollenberg, Frank" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\10\17@120419 by Andrew Warren

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I wrote:

> > The only USB-capable PIC in production is low-speed only, and it
> > costs more than comparable chips from other vendors.

and Bob Ammerman <PICLISTEraseMEspam.....mitvma.mit.edu> replied:

> Andrew is being a little bit unfair here, because the low-speed
> USB PIC, which is all you typically need for HID devices, _is_
> available. For example, at http://www.digikey.com: PIC16C745-I/SP
> is available for 8.60 in singles.

   Bob:

   Please explain how I was being "unfair" by saying exactly what
   you said.

Later, I wrote:

> I would HIGHLY recommend [full-speed USB micros] over the low-speed
> parts.  Low-speed USB is dumb; full- and high-speed USB (especially
> with the "smart" SIE in the EZ-USB parts) is MUCH nicer.

and Bob replied:

> Again I'll differ with Andy. With the sample code mChip was going
> to put on their website (at least they promised it would be posted
> when I took the USB class at the Masters) it would be VERY EASY
> for a relative beginner to get a HID device working with the mChip
> devices.

   Bob:

   You're not differing with me at all; I never said that it'd be
   hard for a beginner to download code from Microchip's website
   and burn it into a PIC.

   What I said was that low-speed USB is DUMB.  It was hung off the
   side of the full-speed USB spec only because mouse and keyboard
   manufacturers thought (erroneously) that it would necessarily be
   cheaper.  Low-speed USB was deliberately dumbed-down by the spec
   committee -- very few endpoints, very limited transfer modes,
   etc. -- to encourage people NOT to use it for anything but mice
   and keyboards.  The only reason that people DO use it is that no
   host-side drivers need to be written for USB devices that conform
   to the (WAY too complex) HID spec, but EVEN IF YOU DO want to use
   HID, you can just as easily do it with a full-speed part and gain
   the advantage of much faster transfer speed and many more
   endpoints.

   -Andy


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2001\10\17@132615 by Andrew Warren

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Wollenberg, Frank <RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> what about development tools (assembler, C-compiler, simulator,
> emulator) [for the Cypress USB micros]? What are their prices
> (round about) ?

Frank:

For the low-speed parts:  A full version of the assembler and
compiler (by Bytecraft) is on the Cypress website and downloadable
for free.  Your local Cypress distributor will know what the emulator
costs; I don't.

For the full-speed parts:  An evaluation version (limited to 4K of
code) of the Keil compiler/assembler/simulator/debugger is on the
website; the full version can be purchased from Keil, at a proice
comparable to other microcontroller C compilers.  The EZ-USB family
development boards (with lots of RAM, pushbuttons, LEDs, serial
ports, etc.) cost $400 or so.

The full-speed parts all use 8051 CPUs, so if you don't like Keil,
any of the dozens of 8051 assemblers/compilers can be used (of
course, Cypress's Applications department doesn't have the resources
to support all those third-party 8051 tools).

-Andy


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2001\10\17@134348 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

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> Just out of curiousity, have you done any DMX work already Wouter?

Nope, but a member of the electronics group wants to give it a go. I don't
think he got very far yet.

Wouter

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2001\10\18@051543 by kevin palmer

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just for info
i have interfaced chips from http://www.ftdichip.com to pics, dead easy.
They have a parrallel one which is  effectivly 8 bit plus stobe which I
can run at up to about 5 mbitper sec or a serial version. They also have
a vitual com port driver for the pc end so that it apears as com 3 or 4.
this can be directly driven from hypeterm or  you VB prog. that way you
dont even have to know about USB, end pointd etc.

kevin




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2001\10\21@205703 by Josh Koffman

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Sorry for the late reply. I am currently working on a few DMX projects.
The only one really completed is a simple hand held remote. It uses a
16f84 @4mhz bit banging DMX. If he has any questions, just let me know,
although he should know I am not that great at UART DMX yet.

Josh Koffman

wouter van ooijen & floortje hanneman wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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