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'[EE]: Test car battery'
2006\03\29@205154 by kravnus wolf

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How to test the card battery when is dead? The last
time I tested the dead battery, the pd. was 12v
ish...... The voltage rating for the car battery. Use
an ammeter?..... Any clues?

Thanks,
John



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2006\03\29@211641 by Richard Prosser

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On 30/03/06, kravnus wolf <spam_OUTkravnusTakeThisOuTspamyahoo.com> wrote:
> How to test the card battery when is dead? The last
> time I tested the dead battery, the pd. was 12v
> ish...... The voltage rating for the car battery. Use
> an ammeter?..... Any clues?
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
Hi John,
I guess it depends what you are testing it for.
If you are trying to check state of charge, then the voltage may give
you a rough indication.
If you are looking at capacity, then you need to do a full charge, and
then a timed discharge into a known load.
If you just want to know if it will start the car, then you just have to try it.

The best quick test is to do a voltage measurement under load. But you
need a known good battery to compare it against to interpret the
result.
If you have access to the individual cells, then you may get an
indication if you measure the individual cell voltages under load
(e.g. headlights) and check if any cells are giving significantly
lower output.
You can do this to a battery on charge also - provided that the
battery has been on charge "long enough" to be pretty well there.
If you have a filtered DC charger (eg a bench power supply) then the
float current should drop to a few 10s of milliamps on a fully charged
battery at 13.6V. If it stays significantly higher then you may have a
shorted cell. Note that at 13.6V, it may take 36hours or more to fully
charge however.

In any event, you need to start with a fully charged battery as there
will always be some variation is cell capacity and testing a flat
battery will only show this up - even on a brand new one.

If the terminal battery drops significantly when a load is applied,
then the internal resistance may have gne high (eg due to sulphation).

Just my thoughts on the issue

Richard P

2006\03\29@233242 by andrew kelley

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Hey,

> How to test the card battery when is dead? The last
> time I tested the dead battery, the pd. was 12v
> ish...... The voltage rating for the car battery. Use
> an ammeter?..... Any clues?

One of the best ways other than just charging and trying it out in the
car is to:  put it on the charger anyhow, but make sure the charger
has a amp guage, so you can see how much current the battery is
pulling.  If it doesn't start the car or even sounds like its not
trying at all, the charge guage(ammeter) on the charger should read
close to full scale, and should stay at near full charge rate for at
least 2 hours.  If the rate drops significantly within say between a
half hour and somewhere up to an hour and a half, go get a new
battery.  If not, leave it on charge overnight and then plop it in
after and try it out, and you'll find out how soon it will die again
if at all.  One other thing is to make sure the alternator is good
too.  (usually idiot lights take care of that, but not always [like on
my plym horizon])  If you have a battery guage in the car, you should
be able to watch it not drop while you drive down the highway (or
leave it running for that matter, with the lights on after its been on
for 15 minutes).

> Thanks,
> John

No problem

--
andrew

2006\03\30@001032 by Steve Smith

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face
Read the date code. If its more then 3 years old probably dead more than 4
years old defiantly dead ! automotive batteries are made from low grade
materials and usually last about 3-4 years. Standard 'garage' tester is a
bit of bent wire and a voltmeter they look for a dip voltage of >10V under
load of about 50-100A for a few seconds to indicate serviceable


Rgds Steve



{Original Message removed}

2006\03\30@002834 by Danny Sauer

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kravnus wrote regarding '[EE]: Test car battery' on Wed, Mar 29 at 19:54:
> How to test the card battery when is dead? The last
> time I tested the dead battery, the pd. was 12v
> ish...... The voltage rating for the car battery. Use
> an ammeter?..... Any clues?

It's not the official list view, but "around here" there are several
chain-type auto parts stores that will test batteries and alternators
for free if you just bring them in.  I think they do that on the
presumption that people bringing in dead parts and finding out about
it in a parts store are unlikely to travel to a different store to buy
replacements.  Wait, that's an ungainly sentence, but hopefully the
meaning's clear...

My local O'Reilly store has a nifty digital AutoMeter tester that I
feel good about trusting.  So that's where I take car batteries.  Your
area of the world may not have such a thing.  But for the benefit of
USAians (or whatever the accepted term is - I lost interest in the
thread), chain-style auto parts stores are where it's at for
testing. :)

--Danny

2006\03\30@003019 by Sergey Dryga

face picon face
Steve Smith <xygax <at> blueyonder.co.uk> writes:

>
> Read the date code. If its more then 3 years old probably dead more than 4
> years old defiantly dead ! automotive batteries are made from low grade

Definitly dead is a fairly strong statement.  I might just get lucky, but both
my and my wife's cars have 5 year-old batteries, still running with no problems.

My point, servicable period depends on number of conditions such as
temperature, load etc.  Hard to make a blanket statement.

<SNIP>

Sergey Dryga

2006\03\30@003629 by Herbert Graf

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On Thu, 2006-03-30 at 05:29 +0000, Sergey Dryga wrote:
> Steve Smith <xygax <at> blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>
> >
> > Read the date code. If its more then 3 years old probably dead more than 4
> > years old defiantly dead ! automotive batteries are made from low grade
>
> Definitly dead is a fairly strong statement.  I might just get lucky, but both
> my and my wife's cars have 5 year-old batteries, still running with no problems.
>
> My point, servicable period depends on number of conditions such as
> temperature, load etc.  Hard to make a blanket statement.

Agreed. A person who says "4 years = definitely bad" is probably from a
very warm area of the world.

The number one non abusive killer of car batteries is heat. If you live
in a climate that has extremely hot summers it can be "normal" for a
battery to be gone after only 4 years.

OTOH in the area of Canada I live in 5 years of life is expected, more
is common.

This is ignoring abuse of the battery. Car batteries are designed to
start the car and that's it, they are not designed for constant low
loads over long periods of time. NEVER discharge a car battery very
much. Discharging a car battery to zero capacity will result in a
heavily shortened life.

TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2006\03\30@004018 by andrew kelley

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> > Read the date code. If its more then 3 years old probably dead more than 4
> > years old defiantly dead ! automotive batteries are made from low grade
>
> Definitly dead is a fairly strong statement.  I might just get lucky, but both
> my and my wife's cars have 5 year-old batteries, still running with no problems.

That's all? If you don't ever forget your lights, I have had batteries
nine years old still work..

andrew

2006\03\30@034513 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

In my experience the killer of batteries is the cold.  This makes batteries less efficient right when they need to provide the most current to turn over engines full of cold thick oil.  In the UK, if a battery is going to fail the odds are it will go in winter. Sales of new car batteries over here rise sharply over the winter.

IME over 5 years is fairly exceptional for a battery these days, and the "budget" replacements will likely last little more than half that.

Regards

Mike

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2006\03\30@061303 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Mar 30, 2006, at 12:45 AM, Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:

> IME over 5 years is fairly exceptional for a battery these days

Maybe they make better batteries over here in America where we
worship cars.  I don't think I've ever had a battery fail in as
little as 5 years, although that marks about the time when people
stop acting surprised if the battery fails.

BillW

2006\03\30@092913 by Sergey Dryga

face picon face
andrew kelley <leetslacker <at> gmail.com> writes:

>
> > > Read the date code. If its more then 3 years old probably dead more than 4
> > > years old defiantly dead ! automotive batteries are made from low grade
> >
> > Definitly dead is a fairly strong statement.  I might just get lucky, but
both
> > my and my wife's cars have 5 year-old batteries, still running with no
problems.
>
> That's all? If you don't ever forget your lights, I have had batteries
> nine years old still work..
>
> andrew
>
My car has auto light shut-off, so maybe I have a chance to get to 9 year
battery life.  The car is 5 year-old, will see in 4 years what will be gone
first, the car or the battery.

Sergey



2006\03\30@122027 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Thu, Mar 30, 2006 at 03:12:59AM -0800, William Chops Westfield wrote:
> On Mar 30, 2006, at 12:45 AM, Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:
>
> > IME over 5 years is fairly exceptional for a battery these days
>
> Maybe they make better batteries over here in America where we
> worship cars.  I don't think I've ever had a battery fail in as
> little as 5 years, although that marks about the time when people
> stop acting surprised if the battery fails.

Mine just failed after 2.5 years. The battery guy pointed out that
heavier stronger batteries fail faster.

Of course batteries are now a service and not an item anymore. Since
they are virtually sealed, one cannot add water to them. This causes
them to fail faster.

The expectation is that when they fail under warranty that you'll simply
swap out the dead battery for a new one. The battery guys will then
recondition the battery and sell it again as such.

I got my new battery for less than 1/2 the price of a regular new one
under the warranty. And when it fails again, I go back and do it again.

BAJ

2006\03\30@125740 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Thu, 2006-03-30 at 09:45 +0100, Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:
> >The number one non abusive killer of car batteries is heat. If
> >you live in a climate that has extremely hot summers it can be
> >"normal" for a battery to be gone after only 4 years.
>
> In my experience the killer of batteries is the cold.  This makes batteries less efficient right when they need to provide the most current to turn over engines full of cold thick oil.  In the UK, if a battery is going to fail the odds are it will go in winter. Sales of new car batteries over here rise sharply over the winter.

Actually, the cold will simply expose a battery at the end of it's life,
the cold by itself won't shorten a battery's life.

Heat is a killer of car batteries.

> IME over 5 years is fairly exceptional for a battery these days, and the "budget" replacements will likely last little more than half that.

Well, I can't explain that. In Canada 5 years for a battery is the
minimum, no matter how "budget" it is.

And we get cold winters. My 6 year old battery started my car in -30C
this winter without issue. I'd say this'll probably be it's last year,
but we shall see.

TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2006\03\30@133117 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Herbert Graf wrote:

> Well, I can't explain that. In Canada 5 years for a battery is the
> minimum, no matter how "budget" it is.
>
> And we get cold winters.

Can it be that the generally cold climate in most of Canada in the winter
prevents too cheap (and weak in the cold) batteries to become popular, and
so the market of even "budget" batteries is not as "budget" as maybe
elsewhere?

Gerhard

2006\03\30@141612 by Herbert Graf

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face
On Thu, 2006-03-30 at 15:22 -0300, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> Herbert Graf wrote:
>
> > Well, I can't explain that. In Canada 5 years for a battery is the
> > minimum, no matter how "budget" it is.
> >
> > And we get cold winters.
>
> Can it be that the generally cold climate in most of Canada in the winter
> prevents too cheap (and weak in the cold) batteries to become popular, and
> so the market of even "budget" batteries is not as "budget" as maybe
> elsewhere?

That's entirely possible, I did think of that afterwards.

I know for a fact that some cars that "do well" in some parts of the
world do horribly in Canada.

Alot of that is due to our huge use of salt in central and eastern
Canada in the winter for deicing.

But the cold itself probably has some impact. Not sure.

Fact of the matter is if a battery that was properly cared for lasts
less then 5 years the average Canadian would not be very happy.

TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2006\03\30@152410 by Steve Smith

flavicon
face
Sorry just used to dealing with plante batteries that last for 25 years
under the best conditions and some longer than that. We took a battery out
of a substation last year that was fitted in 1954 and it had just failed on
75% capacity 114 cells 770 AH weighed in at around 26 ton and  was made in
glass jars (one was preserved as a fish tank). Sealed (vrla) batts have a 10
year design life and if looked after do about 8 years. Telecom scrap them at
about 6 years. Car batteries about 4 years (usually if your lucky) and most
likely 3 years. Mainly the quality of the materials is the main issue but
hot continuous temperature will halve a batteries life for every 5 deg above
20 so a 10yr battery lasts about 5 yrs at 25 deg and about 2.5 yrs at 30
deg. Cold also effects the ability of the battery to deliver current
particularly when there are peak demands as in cranking hence most cars have
new batts in the winter.

Scuse the rambling but car batts last bout 4 yrs

Steve..

{Original Message removed}

2006\03\30@155644 by David VanHorn

picon face
Temperature, vibration, deep discharge, and less than stellar regulation of
charge voltage are all killer factors for car batteries.

2006\03\30@213218 by kravnus wolf

picon face
Sigh....... In Malaysia the batt life is about 3 years
max. Thanks for all the great input. From what I can
gather most of the test is to determine the voltage
drop for a given load with a know voltage reference.

Thanks,
John

--- David VanHorn <.....dvanhornKILLspamspam.....microbrix.com> wrote:

> Temperature, vibration, deep discharge, and less
> than stellar regulation of
> charge voltage are all killer factors for car
> batteries.
> --


'[EE]: Test car battery'
2006\04\04@105057 by Howard Winter
face
flavicon
picon face
Bill,

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 03:12:59 -0800, William "Chops" Westfield wrote:

> On Mar 30, 2006, at 12:45 AM, Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:
>
> > IME over 5 years is fairly exceptional for a battery these days
>
> Maybe they make better batteries over here in America where we
> worship cars.  I don't think I've ever had a battery fail in as
> little as 5 years, although that marks about the time when people
> stop acting surprised if the battery fails.

I think it depends on usage.  A friend in California had a battery wear out in about 4 years, but it was often
used for very short journeys and likely spent most of its life undercharged, which is a Bad Thing!

Cheers,




Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\04\04@110336 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
BAJ,

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 12:20:25 -0500, Byron A Jeff wrote:

{Quote hidden}

What???  Did he try to sell you a bridge while you were there?  :-)  Batteries subject to heavier loads and a
rougher life would fail faster, but a heavily-built battery having the same use should last longer than a
lighter-duty battery.

> Of course batteries are now a service and not an item anymore. Since
> they are virtually sealed, one cannot add water to them. This causes
> them to fail faster.

Perhaps - depends how they are treated, and especially the temperatures they live at.

> The expectation is that when they fail under warranty that you'll simply
> swap out the dead battery for a new one. The battery guys will then
> recondition the battery and sell it again as such.
>
> I got my new battery for less than 1/2 the price of a regular new one
> under the warranty. And when it fails again, I go back and do it again.

This isn't a scheme I've seen in Britain for about 20 years (where you pay a proportion of the "life" of the
warranty for the replacement) - nowadays if it fails within warranty you get a new one, but its warranty
expires on the same date as the old one.

To be honest, the cost of a battery is insignificant these days - the last time I looked in Costco (yes, we
have them too, although far fewer of them) a new battery cost just less than a tankful of fuel.  Speaking of
which, I was a little shocked on arriving in California recently to find that that the price of your fuel has
now gone up to half the cost of ours!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\04\04@161746 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
Howard Winter wrote:

> To be honest, the cost of a battery is insignificant these days - the last time I looked in Costco (yes, we
> have them too, although far fewer of them) a new battery cost just less than a tankful of fuel.  Speaking of
> which, I was a little shocked on arriving in California recently to find that that the price of your fuel has
> now gone up to half the cost of ours!

Dang it, we need to speed up that plan to invade Canada.  ;-P

Nate

2006\04\04@164230 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
>
> Dang it, we need to speed up that plan to invade Canada.  ;-P


And they already have most of their population massed along the border!

2006\04\04@173233 by Dwayne Reid

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At 02:17 PM 4/4/2006, Nate Duehr wrote:
>Howard Winter wrote:
>
> > To be honest, the cost of a battery is insignificant these days -
> the last time I looked in Costco (yes, we
> > have them too, although far fewer of them) a new battery cost
> just less than a tankful of fuel.  Speaking of
> > which, I was a little shocked on arriving in California recently
> to find that that the price of your fuel has
> > now gone up to half the cost of ours!
>
>Dang it, we need to speed up that plan to invade Canada.  ;-P

I think that you'd be shocked at what you see when you get here: as I
type this, regular unleaded is selling for Can $0.999 per liter.  I
think that is about 30% more than you are currently paying - and we
make the stuff here.

dwayne

--
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2006\04\04@173405 by Bob Axtell

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Nate Duehr wrote:

>Howard Winter wrote:
>
>  
>
>>To be honest, the cost of a battery is insignificant these days - the last time I looked in Costco (yes, we
>>have them too, although far fewer of them) a new battery cost just less than a tankful of fuel.  Speaking of
>>which, I was a little shocked on arriving in California recently to find that that the price of your fuel has
>>now gone up to half the cost of ours!
>>    
>>
>
>Dang it, we need to speed up that plan to invade Canada.  ;-P
>
>Nate
>  
>
We haven't invaded Canada yet..??

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2006\04\04@174731 by David VanHorn

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>
> We haven't invaded Canada yet..??


Shhh.. My wife's a canadian!

2006\04\05@143434 by Peter

picon face

On Tue, 4 Apr 2006, Nate Duehr wrote:

> Dang it, we need to speed up that plan to invade Canada.  ;-P

Why bother ? Just buy your gas by mail order from Canada and you will
have all the good feeling, without the bad ice for one month a year ?
<g>

Peter

2006\04\05@144216 by Danny Sauer

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face
Peter wrote regarding 'Re: [EE]: Test car battery' on Wed, Apr 05 at 13:38:
> Why bother ? Just buy your gas by mail order from Canada and you will
> have all the good feeling, without the bad ice for one month a year ?
> <g>

Wait, Canadian ice goes bad?  I'll stick with my reliable ice in the
USA then, thanks.

--Danny, pretty sure Canada is precisely as portrayed on South Park :)

2006\04\06@131355 by Peter

picon face

On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Danny Sauer wrote:

> Peter wrote regarding 'Re: [EE]: Test car battery' on Wed, Apr 05 at 13:38:
>> Why bother ? Just buy your gas by mail order from Canada and you will
>> have all the good feeling, without the bad ice for one month a year ?
>> <g>
>
> Wait, Canadian ice goes bad?  I'll stick with my reliable ice in the
> USA then, thanks.

I am not Canadian, I have people there, I was alluding to the joke that
goes like 'In Canada, we have 11 months of great skiing and one month of
bad ice'.

Peter

2006\04\06@132731 by Peter Todd

picon face
On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 08:13:55PM +0300, Peter wrote:
> > Peter wrote regarding 'Re: [EE]: Test car battery' on Wed, Apr 05 at 13:38:
> >> Why bother ? Just buy your gas by mail order from Canada and you will
> >> have all the good feeling, without the bad ice for one month a year ?
> >> <g>
> >
> > Wait, Canadian ice goes bad?  I'll stick with my reliable ice in the
> > USA then, thanks.
>
> I am not Canadian, I have people there, I was alluding to the joke that
> goes like 'In Canada, we have 11 months of great skiing and one month of
> bad ice'.

Heck, my parents live way up north in Yellowknife. There they actively
wish for cold weather, because if it's not cold enough, the ice roads
running across lakes don't form and you cant ship bulk goods anywhere.

This year it was too warm so the ice roads were only open for something
like 3 weeks rather than 2 months, now all the mines are going to run
out of diesel fuel to power their generators well before the end of the
year.

Might have very well cost me a job too. I was hoping to work up there
this summer. Normally they'll hire anyone willing with a pulse, but I
never heard back from them.

Anyway, in Canada we hope for good ice...

--
@spam@peteKILLspamspampetertodd.ca http://www.petertodd.ca

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