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'[EE]: Straightforward way to implement three-state'
2007\04\19@201647 by Vitaliy

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I'm helping a co-worker design an improved RS232 breakout box (for in-house
use), which will have an LED for each of the lines (except ground). Each LED
has three states: Green (active), Red (inactive), and Off (no signal).

What is the most straightforward way to implement this?

We have a solution using a MAX248 (which is also used to convert to TTL),
and an inverter to drive LEDs, which takes care of the Green/Red
functionality. However, we're having some difficulty with finding a simple
and elegant solution that would turn the LED off.

Thank you in advance,

Vitaliy

2007\04\19@204053 by Robert Rolf

picon face
I take it that you've never heard of 2 pin bicolor LEDs?
Commonly used on RS232 break out boxes to do exactly what
you are asking. One LED + one current limiting resistor per signal line.
RS232 spec says up to 30mA supplied. LED lights with a few mA
so you drive the LED DIRECTLY from the RS232 signal lines.
One polarity gives you red. The other, green, and no voltage
is black.

With 4 pin bicolor you just wire the LED's back to back.
http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Stanley/BRPG1211C.pdf

Why are you trying to do it the "REALLY HARD WAY' with the
Maxim device? LED don't care too about voltage. Just current.

A bunch of LM339 comparators, with bias at RS232 thresholds
(+3V, -3V, is spec) will let you drive the LEDs directly (with
current limits of course) if you really need a buffered solution.
And remember that you only need ONE current limiting resistor per
pair of LEDs since only one is on at a time.


Robert

Vitaliy wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2007\04\19@205719 by Vitaliy

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Robert Rolf wrote:
>I take it that you've never heard of 2 pin bicolor LEDs?
> Commonly used on RS232 break out boxes to do exactly what
> you are asking. One LED + one current limiting resistor per signal line.
> RS232 spec says up to 30mA supplied. LED lights with a few mA
> so you drive the LED DIRECTLY from the RS232 signal lines.
> One polarity gives you red. The other, green, and no voltage
> is black.

I have a breakout box from B&B Electronics, which is designed exactly this
way. However, first of all -- good luck drawing 30 mA from a serial port...
maybe at 0V, and only with *some* ports. Second, and I should have probably
mentioned it, I would like to affect the lines as little as possible. We
have designs which are powered from the port, and it's not a good idea to
add more load to the port (voltage drops below threshold).

> Why are you trying to do it the "REALLY HARD WAY' with the
> Maxim device? LED don't care too about voltage. Just current.

See above.

> A bunch of LM339 comparators, with bias at RS232 thresholds
> (+3V, -3V, is spec) will let you drive the LEDs directly (with
> current limits of course) if you really need a buffered solution.
> And remember that you only need ONE current limiting resistor per
> pair of LEDs since only one is on at a time.

Any other ideas?

Best Regards,

Vitaliy

2007\04\19@220114 by Dwayne Reid

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At 06:55 PM 4/19/2007, Vitaliy wrote:
>Second, and I should have probably
>mentioned it, I would like to affect the lines as little as possible. We
>have designs which are powered from the port, and it's not a good idea to
>add more load to the port (voltage drops below threshold).
>
>Any other ideas?

Not sure if this will give you the results that you want, but similar
to what Rob described but with NPN & PNP buffer transistors.  Series
R from signal line into both bases, both emitters tied together and
to one end of bi-color LED, other end of bi-color LED through
resistor to ground.  PNP collector to -4.5V, NPN collector to
+4.5V.  One more (high-value) resistor between bases and emitters
keeps the LEDs off when not in use.

You can get a dual PNP & NPN transistor in what looks to be a
sot-23-6 package (BC847).

Of course, you can have lots of variations on this theme but I'd try
to stay with emitter-follower topology for highest input impedance.

Small and darned inexpensive.

dwayne

PS - This Canadian seller has reels of 3000 pcs of BC847 for US
$30.  <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120035447850>

dwayne

--
Dwayne Reid   <spam_OUTdwaynerTakeThisOuTspamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
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2007\04\19@221156 by Timothy J. Weber

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Vitaliy wrote:
> I have a breakout box from B&B Electronics, which is designed exactly this
> way. However, first of all -- good luck drawing 30 mA from a serial port...
> maybe at 0V, and only with *some* ports. Second, and I should have probably
> mentioned it, I would like to affect the lines as little as possible. We
> have designs which are powered from the port, and it's not a good idea to
> add more load to the port (voltage drops below threshold).

I've done this before with a PIC12F629 watching the lines and driving
the LEDs.  You can also easily add a minimum on-time, if appropriate, to
ensure that even brief activity is visible - I used 100 ms.
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org

2007\04\19@231712 by Vitaliy

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Timothy J. Weber wrote:
>> I have a breakout box from B&B Electronics, which is designed exactly
>> this
>> way. However, first of all -- good luck drawing 30 mA from a serial
>> port...
>> maybe at 0V, and only with *some* ports. Second, and I should have
>> probably
>> mentioned it, I would like to affect the lines as little as possible. We
>> have designs which are powered from the port, and it's not a good idea to
>> add more load to the port (voltage drops below threshold).
>
> I've done this before with a PIC12F629 watching the lines and driving
> the LEDs.  You can also easily add a minimum on-time, if appropriate, to
> ensure that even brief activity is visible - I used 100 ms.

Yeah, but how do you determine that the line is not connected?

>From what I understand, there's no way to do what we want, unless we use a
negative supply of some sort (I'd like to stick to +5V, for a number of
reasons). For now, we've decided to use the INVALID pin of MAX221 to detect
the presence of voltage on each of the lines. We happen to be using this IC
in a production unit, and parts cost is not an issue for this in-house
project -- but the whole thing is so hacky, it's disgusting...

-Vitaliy

2007\04\20@021051 by Dario Greggio

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> I have a breakout box from B&B Electronics, which is designed exactly this
> way. However, first of all -- good luck drawing 30 mA from a serial port...

Me too would not "overload" the line hard-wiring Leds to it. (though it
may work, sure)
The PIC approach from Timothy sounds the best, due to "minimum pulse
time" and some more features you can throw in as well.

--
Ciao, Dario

2007\04\20@024319 by Robert Rolf

picon face
Dario Greggio wrote:

>>I have a breakout box from B&B Electronics, which is designed exactly this
>>way. However, first of all -- good luck drawing 30 mA from a serial port...

Especially a laptop port.
And many laptops don't even put out true RS232 levels. I've had problems with
Dells, HPs, Compaq's (the worst) where the signalling was BARELY over the 3V
thresold of the spec, (and the 1889 receivers commonly used).

> Me too would not "overload" the line hard-wiring Leds to it. (though it
> may work, sure)
> The PIC approach from Timothy sounds the best, due to "minimum pulse
> time" and some more features you can throw in as well.

You CAN draw enough to light LED's without causing a problem with the signal.
I've been doing it for decades now with an early break out box.
They wouldn't have sold 10's of thousands of them if they didn't work.
About $10.
What is his time worth?
It seems silly to convert from RS232 levels to TTL to JUST drive some
LEDs. And I certainly wouldn't use Maxim 'unobtainium' chips.
A a few transistors or fets are sufficient for the described task, turning on
LEDs based on one of three input levels.

And you certainly don't need expensive level shifting chips to convert RS232
levels to TTL. A zener diode and series resistor are sufficient.

R


2007\04\20@033349 by Rob Hamerling

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Hi Vitaliy,

Vitaliy wrote:
> I'm helping a co-worker design an improved RS232 breakout box (for in-house
> use), which will have an LED for each of the lines (except ground). Each LED
> has three states: Green (active), Red (inactive), and Off (no signal).
>
> What is the most straightforward way to implement this?

I'm sure my breakout box (http://www.robh.nl/electro.php) is not exactly
'the most straightforward', but maybe it gives you some inspiration...

Regards, Rob.

--
Rob Hamerling, Vianen, NL (http://www.robh.nl/)

2007\04\20@034624 by William Chops Westfield

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On Apr 19, 2007, at 5:14 PM, Vitaliy wrote:

> I'm helping a co-worker design an improved RS232 breakout
> box (for in-house use), which will have an LED for each
> of the lines (except ground). Each LED has three states:
> Green (active), Red (inactive), and Off (no signal).
>
> What is the most straightforward way to implement this?
>

Without loading the port, eh?  You should be able to bias
NPN and PNP transistors (or mosfets, or logic gates) so that
one gate is on if the signal is negative, one if the signal is
positive, and neither if the signal is absent.  You may have to
abuse or provide protection diodes for rs232, though.  See the
attached schematic (which is actually for a logic probe of ancient
vintage.)

With a PIC, I'd be tempted to use A-D converter pins for inputs
and detect actual voltages, then display digitally...  This might
turn out easier, and you could do something like yellow for voltages
present but not within legal range...

BillW

2007\04\20@040159 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

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> See the attached schematic (which is actually for a logic
> probe of ancient vintage.)
>
WHAT attached image, I hear you cry...  Here it is.


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2007\04\20@042654 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I take it that you've never heard of 2 pin bicolor LEDs?
>Commonly used on RS232 break out boxes to do exactly what
>you are asking. One LED + one current limiting resistor per signal line.
>RS232 spec says up to 30mA supplied. LED lights with a few mA
>so you drive the LED DIRECTLY from the RS232 signal lines.
>One polarity gives you red. The other, green, and no voltage
>is black.

Unfortunately such an arrangement also tends to load a lot of RS232 drivers
so that they no longer produce the required voltage. Having been through
that loop myself I certainly would not recommend it.

A nicer way is to use an NPN and PNP transistor pair to drive the LEDs which
are powered by a 9V battery.

2007\04\20@070132 by Peter P.

picon face
Vitaliy <spam <at> maksimov.org> writes:

> What is the most straightforward way to implement this?

Low cost quad opamp (LM324 etc) and input bias network with reference
slightly above ground (exacly like line receivers have - e.g. 1.5 to 2.5V
or so). The  opamps are used as voltage repeaters or slight dc amplifiers
(not as comparators).

When there is no input (wire not connected) the opamp input is held at the
reference voltage and the output becomes 'center' so the bidirectional led
is off. Most (all) the resistors can be made identical and thus part of a
DALE etc array.

Alternate way to do it (5 channels per IC):

                              LEDs 2mA

                           +----|<|---+
                    |\     |          |         /|
Signal o---1M----*---+ o----*----|>|---*--*-B---o +---+
                |   |/     |          |  |      \|   |
                |          |          |  |           |
                +----1M----+          |  +----1M-----+
                                      |
                                      v
                                    other channels

The inverters are CMOS4069B or similar. B is a PNP/NPN push-pull current
booster, needed for more than 2 channels. Alternately use several gates in
parallel for the bias source. E.g. 4069 can use 3 gates as bias and 3
channels, gives 3 channels per chip.

Peter P.


2007\04\21@012711 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
On 4/19/07, Vitaliy <.....spamKILLspamspam@spam@maksimov.org> wrote:
> I'm helping a co-worker design an improved RS232 breakout box (for in-house
> use), which will have an LED for each of the lines (except ground). Each LED
> has three states: Green (active), Red (inactive), and Off (no signal).
>
> What is the most straightforward way to implement this?
>
> We have a solution using a MAX248 (which is also used to convert to TTL),
> and an inverter to drive LEDs, which takes care of the Green/Red
> functionality. However, we're having some difficulty with finding a simple
> and elegant solution that would turn the LED off.
>

I have doubts about the utility of such device but that is fortunately
yours (or your customer's) problem. The RS232 is able to deliver with
the worst driver around 5-10mA on lines without dropping the voltage
level required by the receiver (which is more than +/-3V).

If the specs say indeed 30mA then do not believe the RS232 specs.

So I guess no other gate or IC is requested for this implementation
except three leds and resistors ...(OK, maybe some transistors if you
really want).
As long the active is the inverse of inactive why must be both signalised ?
(christmas tree?) When there is no signal af course that both active
and inactive will be off.

2007\04\21@091758 by Peter P.

picon face
Vasile Surducan <piclist9 <at> gmail.com> writes:

> I have doubts about the utility of such device but that is fortunately
> yours (or your customer's) problem. The RS232 is able to deliver with
> the worst driver around 5-10mA on lines without dropping the voltage
> level required by the receiver (which is more than +/-3V).

Yes, but the larger part of SE-Asia where these things are manufacturers
disagrees. It must be a translation problem.

> If the specs say indeed 30mA then do not believe the RS232 specs.

No, believe reality. Like what comes out of your lapop's or USB serial adapter's
port.

> So I guess no other gate or IC is requested for this implementation
> except three leds and resistors ...(OK, maybe some transistors if you
> really want).
> As long the active is the inverse of inactive why must be both signalised ?
> (christmas tree?) When there is no signal af course that both active
> and inactive will be off.

One reason is to find broken wires and dead drivers (and short circuits). My
serial breakout box has bicolor leds directly wired to the control lines. The
leds are wired to take about 4mA. Yet the box can fail to indicate correctly
with some laptops. The Op wanted something used for test equipment, that will
not load the wires.

Peter P.


2007\04\21@093704 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
Robert Rolf wrote:

> You CAN draw enough to light LED's without causing a problem with the signal.
> I've been doing it for decades now with an early break out box.
> They wouldn't have sold 10's of thousands of them if they didn't work.

of course they work!
And so does my PIC programmer on Serial port, with no Parts :-)

But, if it has to be a measurement tool, I'd not take the risk of
interfering with existing appareil


--
Ciao, Dario

2007\04\21@211524 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
William Chops Westfield wrote:
>> I'm helping a co-worker design an improved RS232 breakout
>> box (for in-house use), which will have an LED for each
>> of the lines (except ground). Each LED has three states:
>> Green (active), Red (inactive), and Off (no signal).
>>
>> What is the most straightforward way to implement this?
>>
>
> Without loading the port, eh?  You should be able to bias
> NPN and PNP transistors (or mosfets, or logic gates) so that
> one gate is on if the signal is negative, one if the signal is
> positive, and neither if the signal is absent.  You may have to
> abuse or provide protection diodes for rs232, though. See the
> attached schematic (which is actually for a logic probe of ancient
> vintage.)

This solution would require a negative supply to work with RS232.

> With a PIC, I'd be tempted to use A-D converter pins for inputs
> and detect actual voltages, then display digitally...  This might
> turn out easier, and you could do something like yellow for voltages
> present but not within legal range...

Same problem.

Vitaliy

2007\04\21@211936 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Rob Hamerling wrote:
>> I'm helping a co-worker design an improved RS232 breakout box (for
>> in-house
>> use), which will have an LED for each of the lines (except ground). Each
>> LED
>> has three states: Green (active), Red (inactive), and Off (no signal).
>>
>> What is the most straightforward way to implement this?
>
> I'm sure my breakout box (http://www.robh.nl/electro.php) is not exactly
> 'the most straightforward', but maybe it gives you some inspiration...

Thank you, looks very interesting. In fact, if I could use 12VAC for this
box, I would have probably went with it.

Unfortunately, one of the requirements for this design is that the 5V rail
should be able to provide power to the circuit under test, as well as take
its power from it (eliminating the need for another wall wart).

Vitaliy

2007\04\21@212227 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Peter P wrote:
[...]
> Alternate way to do it (5 channels per IC):
>
>                               LEDs 2mA
>
>                            +----|<|---+
>                     |\     |          |         /|
> Signal o---1M----*---+ o----*----|>|---*--*-B---o +---+
>                 |   |/     |          |  |      \|   |
>                 |          |          |  |           |
>                 +----1M----+          |  +----1M-----+
>                                       |
>                                       v
>                                     other channels
>
> The inverters are CMOS4069B or similar. B is a PNP/NPN push-pull current
> booster, needed for more than 2 channels. Alternately use several gates in
> parallel for the bias source. E.g. 4069 can use 3 gates as bias and 3
> channels, gives 3 channels per chip.

I'm afraid I'm having difficulty reading the ASCII schematic...

Vitaliy

2007\04\21@212228 by Vitaliy

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Thank you all for your suggestions. To answer some of your
questions/comments:


- We're working on a device that has the ability to be powered from the COM
port, as well as another 12V source. We're simultaneously developing
software that will work in conjunction with the device. Among other things,
the software controls the states of each of the control lines, and monitors
the input pins. Simular projects are likely to take place in the near
future, so the breakout box is likely to see long-term use.

- The "dual LEDs/resistors" breakout box someone has suggested draws too
much current, and causes a significant voltage drop, to the point where the
device fails to start (it is continually resetting). So the box has to have
a relatively high impedance, so as to minimize its effect on the RS232
lines.

- Someone correctly hinted that developers' time is expensive. Since the
final product will be produced in very limited quantities, it's important to
keep the development time to a minimum (no tinkering, if possible), but
parts cost is not an issue. The circuit design doesn't need to be clever, it
just has to work.

- LEDs must be able to indicate +/- levels on RS232 lines, as well as the
"no signal" condition.


We've settled on using eight MAX221s (one per line), each of which has an
#INVALID output that goes high whenever there's voltage on the respective
control or data line. The pin goes low whenever the voltage is in the
undefined region.

LEDs are the RGY kind. The #INVALID pin is connected through an inverter to
the Gnd pin of the LED (to disable it when the signal is not present).

The Rout pin of the MAX221 is fed into a buffer and an inverter, the outputs
of which are connected to G and R pins of the LED.

Wasteful and unelegant, I know. :)


I'm saving the entire thread, there's another "breakout box" project
(non-RS232) that we've had on our to-do list for a while, which may utilize
some of the interesting ideas presented here. So thank you again for your
input.

Sincerely,

Vitaliy


2007\04\22@042507 by Peter P.

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part 1 585 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 (unknown type 8bit not decoded)

Please see attached image. The LEDs should be 2mA for use with the CMOS part, but can be normal for use with an opamp. The threshold is 1/2 Vcc for the opamp version (should be 2.5V), this is near enough the real threshold of line receivers. The threshold for the 4069 part is about 2V and even closer. These circuits have been used and tested for 20+ years with minor variations.

Peter P.


     
---------------------------------
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part 2 16753 bytes content-type:image/gif; name="rs232_monitor.gif" (decode)


part 3 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)

2007\04\25@003550 by Vitaliy

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Peter P wrote:
> Please see attached image. The LEDs should be 2mA for use with the CMOS
> part, but can be normal for use with an opamp. The threshold is 1/2 Vcc
> for the opamp version (should be 2.5V), this is near enough the real
> threshold of line receivers. The threshold for the 4069 part is about 2V
> and even closer. These circuits have been used and tested for 20+ years
> with minor variations.

Pretty cool.

Vitaliy

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