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'[EE]: Small batteries'
2000\11\18@210127 by Sean H. Breheny

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Hi all,

Two quick battery questions:

What type of battery would you recommend for a situation where you need
about 9V, 20mA, for about one minute at a time (followed by about 30
minutes of off time), repeated several times? The battery must be as small
and light as possible (this is for a model rocket altimeter). Are there
coin cells capable of this current level? If so, several could be stacked
to get 9V.

Secondly, I remember small (smaller than AA size) 12V batteries being
discussed here some time ago, but I can't find a supplier or the name of
the type of battery. I think they might be used in wireless controls (such
as car door lock transmitters).

Thanks,

Sean

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2000\11\18@214138 by rdo Lopes De Souza Junior

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Hi Sean,

You could find further information about batteries at panasonic web site:

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial_oem/battery/battery_oem/batteries_oem_home.htm

I hope you find exactly what you want.
good luck,

Eduardo.







"Sean H. Breheny" <spam_OUTshb7TakeThisOuTspamCORNELL.EDU> em 18/11/2000 23:01:15

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Assunto: [EE]: Small batteries








Hi all,

Two quick battery questions:

What type of battery would you recommend for a situation where you need
about 9V, 20mA, for about one minute at a time (followed by about 30
minutes of off time), repeated several times? The battery must be as small
and light as possible (this is for a model rocket altimeter). Are there
coin cells capable of this current level? If so, several could be stacked
to get 9V.

Secondly, I remember small (smaller than AA size) 12V batteries being
discussed here some time ago, but I can't find a supplier or the name of
the type of battery. I think they might be used in wireless controls (such
as car door lock transmitters).

Thanks,

Sean

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2000\11\18@221748 by David Lions

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean H. Breheny" <.....shb7KILLspamspam.....CORNELL.EDU>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 1:01 PM
Subject: [EE]: Small batteries


{Quote hidden}

Three lithium coin cells, 20ma is pushing it but...so what.  I measured S.C.
current of 2032 coin cell at 60mA.  They would be light and compact.

> Secondly, I remember small (smaller than AA size) 12V batteries being
> discussed here some time ago, but I can't find a supplier or the name of
> the type of battery. I think they might be used in wireless controls (such
> as car door lock transmitters).
>

Used in cigarette lighters.  Try a tobacconist.  Should be able
to get them where you get batteries, like 'Walmart' etc.  Or maybe a
watchmaker/place where they replace watch batteries, and electronics
stores and places where they replace keychain transmitter batteries.


> Thanks,
>
> Sean
>
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2000\11\18@230858 by Bill Westfield

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   What type of battery would you recommend for a situation where you need
   about 9V, 20mA, for about one minute at a time (followed by about 30
   minutes of off time), repeated several times? The battery must be as small
   and light as possible (this is for a model rocket altimeter). Are there
   coin cells capable of this current level? If so, several could be stacked
   to get 9V.

Someone already mentioned the 2032's 50mA-ish short circuit current.  A 2016
is about half the thickness, weight, and total capacity, but has similar
SSC.  Traditional wisdom for model rockets is that you only use batteries
for one flight (since dying batteries can cause catastrophic failures.)  You
could cascade small 1.5V alkaline watch/toy batteries (186 or A76 sized.)
These are pretty cheap when you find the right sources.

Why 9V, anyway?

BG Micro USED to have some nice 3.6V 60mAh NiMH rechargables, about .4inch
diameter by .4 inch.  Two would be the eqivilent of a typical 9V NiCd (7.2V)
I don't know "normal" sources for NiMH button cells, but All Electronics has
some 7.2V "strip batteries" of similar size.


   Secondly, I remember small (smaller than AA size) 12V batteries being
   discussed here some time ago, but I can't find a supplier or the name of
   the type of battery. I think they might be used in wireless controls (such
   as car door lock transmitters).

They're typically called "lighter batteries." Radio shack has a couple
varieties of 12V as well as a 9V in a similar form factor,  IIRC, current
capability is pretty small; 20mA would probably be pushing it.

BillW

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2000\11\19@055026 by Morgan Olsson

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David Lions wrote:
>Three lithium coin cells, 20ma is pushing it but...so what.  I measured S.C.
>current of 2032 coin cell at 60mA.  They would be light and compact.

Lithiums are good.

Beware though, the same call from different manufacturers may be *very* differently performing at high curreent levels, most datasheets I've seen on such coin cells are very limitid in informaiotn on high pulse load.

For a project requiring 25+ mA we after testing several brands finally chose the CR2025 from "Golden Power" <batteryspamspam_OUTgoldenpower.com>.

Regards
/Morgan

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2000\11\19@064808 by mike

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On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:01:15 -0500, you wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>Two quick battery questions:
>
>What type of battery would you recommend for a situation where you need
>about 9V, 20mA, for about one minute at a time (followed by about 30
>minutes of off time), repeated several times? The battery must be as small
>and light as possible (this is for a model rocket altimeter). Are there
>coin cells capable of this current level? If so, several could be stacked
>to get 9V.
>
>Secondly, I remember small (smaller than AA size) 12V batteries being
>discussed here some time ago, but I can't find a supplier or the name of
>the type of battery. I think they might be used in wireless controls (such
>as car door lock transmitters).
>
>Thanks,
>
>Sean
Check out 1.5v alkaline button cells - they can be found way cheaper
than lithiums (<15 cents), even taking into account you need twice as
many for the voltage. 20mA would be no problem. The 12V batteries are
just a stack of alkaline button cells in a case - used for lighters
and car alarm keyfobs.

Do you really need a voltage as high as 9v ? Reducing this will
significantly reduce battery size. Maybe you only need 9v for a small
part of the circuit, for which you could maybe use a charge pump or
dc-dc converter, running everything else at 3v.

For minimum size & weight, you should look at using a DC-DC step-up
converter from 1.5 or 3V from alkaline buttons or lithium camera
batteries (e.g. CR2).
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2000\11\19@133627 by rottosen

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Sean:

The 12 volt battery you are referring to is Eveready # A23 and has about
a 30ma/hour rating. It does seem to supply the current that you need
from my own experiences. If you only really need 5 volts, consider a 6
volt battery and a series diode.

Many alkaline and lithium batteries exist in small sizes such as
Eveready A544 (alkaline) and L544 (lithium). Duracell makes a 7.5 volt
alkaline battery in a slightly longer case under the # MN175B. The 6
volt and 7.5 volt batteries are typically LR44 (alkaline) or SR44
(silver oxide) stacks. It is interesting to note that the lithium
batteries are specified as having about twice the amp/hour rating of the
alkaline batteries and cost about twice as much. Coincidence?

You might be able to stack several of the SR44's in a length of tubing
installed into a N-cell holder.

-- Rich


"Sean H. Breheny" wrote:
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2000\11\19@150047 by Bill Westfield

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An N-cell holder seems to be about right.  I think it will hold some of the
12V/9V lighter batteries, or 6*Alkaline coin cells, or 3x1/3N lithium cells.

Battery choice should be based somewhat on consumer issues.  It's all very
well that your A76 alkaline coin cell costs $0.19 in quantity from "the
right sources", but a customer paying retail price of $1 to $2 each will
be pissed off if your device needs six of them...

BillW

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2000\11\19@151332 by Dwayne Reid

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At 09:01 PM 11/18/00 -0500, Sean H. Breheny wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>Secondly, I remember small (smaller than AA size) 12V batteries being
>discussed here some time ago, but I can't find a supplier or the name of
>the type of battery. I think they might be used in wireless controls (such
>as car door lock transmitters).

GP-23A is the 12V battery I use.  'GP' is the initials of the manufacturer,
but I don't recall what the letters stand for.

dwayne



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2000\11\19@162925 by Dr. Chris Kirtley

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What about Panasonic Vanadium Pentoxide Lithium rechargeables? (p 556 of
the DigiKey catalog). I wonder if anyone has any experience of these?

Chris
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2000\11\19@182549 by Peter L. Peres

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Sean,

you probably want the 12V batteries used in kefob car alarm remotes. You
can dismantle them to reveal 6 standard coin cells stacked. (but I did not
say this). The operation will save some weight. The lightest kind of
battery for this will likely be 3 CR2016 lithium coin cells stacked giving
9V at <15 grams weight. They will likely support 30mA for a short time.
FYI the quartz watches with alarm draw up to 50mA with the alarm and light
on.

Peter

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2000\11\19@215150 by Brian Kraut

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How about the Polaroid Polapulse batteries?

"Peter L. Peres" wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2000\11\20@104731 by Don Hyde

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I'd visit the local drugstore and look over the rack of digital camera and
watch batteries.  Whatever you find there will probably be readily available
at least for a couple of years.

We've been using DL123 2/3A lithium batteries, and they pack an impressive
wallop.  One of our applications is sucking over 800 mA from these little
things (a few mS at a time), and getting nearly full rated capacity out of
them.

When buying them in quantity, we found that we could not get them packaged
without the retail shelf cards because without them they exceeded some ICC
rule about energy density.  If you could short out a whole box of these
critters, you could generate a LOT of heat.  Supposedly they have some sort
of fusible link inside that will keep them from actually exploding if
shorted out, but with the right load, you can get several amps for quite a
while.

A coin cell based on the same chemistry should be able to supply your
current without sending you to some exotic source to get them.

The 3V cells start out something like 3.6V, but within seconds of load being
applied drop to 3V and stay there for a long time before they start to drop.
To suck them dry, you need to hang in there until they drop so something on
the order of 2.2V, at which point you've gotten 90% of the capacity.  You
need either voltage-tolerant circuitry or a switching regulator to drain
them efficiently.  Some of the L-series PIC's are a very good match for
these cells.

> {Original Message removed}

2000\11\20@121428 by rottosen

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face
The price of batteries is not always a factor worth considering. When a
high power model rocket can cost $100 for engines alone, a few dollars
for batteries doesn't matter much.

Now for a true story:
I was at a high power rocket meet in the early 90's. This national meet
was held by LDRS (Large and Dangerous Rocket Ships ?) at Hartzel,
Colorado. While I was talking to a friend, someone he knew walked up
carrying a damaged Super8 movie camera. I casually commented that the
film probably withstood the rough landing. The camera-holder replied
that it better have survived because it cost him $5000. I didn't know
how to reply to this! When he saw the shock and bafflement on my face he
explained that that was the total cost of camera, rockets, engines and
travel to model rocket meets.


At that same meet another friend of mine launched a barometric altimeter
I had built around a PIC. We were never sure that the result was
correct. The reading seemed a little low compared to calculations he had
made. We wondered if the air hole in the body of the rocket was big
enough to let the pressure equalize during the short flight time.


-- Rich



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2000\11\20@143237 by Chris Carr

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face
I have not been following all of this string and therefore
apologise in advance if I am repeating suggestions made by
others.

I have two suggestions that may be worth investigating
a)
Optimise the battery chemistry,  size, weight, etc to give the best
Ah/weight ratio. Then use a micropower switching regulator such as the
RC4190 to provide the voltage and current you require
b)
Use one or more Super Capacitors as an alternative to batteries

Regards

Chris

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2000\11\20@160628 by Peter L. Peres

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FYI the smallest battery that packs enough energy to turn motors etc that
is available commercially is the CR2 lithium (photo supply). This has
impressive characteristics and is surprisingly light. It is also expensive
when not bought in bulk. FYI camera winder motors often draw 1.2A for a
few seconds at a time from such batteries. The voltage is well in range
for a pic (perhaps with a LDO regulator or a silicon series diode or two
to go to <5.5V. The short circuit current can be very high. I think that
the batteries have built in overcurrent protection.

Anyway Lithium has the highest Wh/kg density. A Li-ion battery can be used
for rechargeable duty for 'lightweight' projecs. 7.2V nom 0.8Ah weighs
under 75 grams.

Peter

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2000\11\20@184426 by mike

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On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 22:55:08 +0200, you wrote:

>FYI the smallest battery that packs enough energy to turn motors etc that
>is available commercially is the CR2 lithium (photo supply). This has
>impressive characteristics and is surprisingly light. It is also expensive
>when not bought in bulk. FYI camera winder motors often draw 1.2A for a
>few seconds at a time from such batteries. The voltage is well in range
>for a pic (perhaps with a LDO regulator or a silicon series diode or two
>to go to <5.5V. ..erm the CR2 is 3v - maybe you're thinking of a different camera
battery
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2000\11\21@034435 by Brian Kraut

picon face
I have seen 12V batteries(I seem to remember 12V, but could be wrong) for fish
lures that had lights in them.  They were about 1/8" diameter and an inch
long.  They had them in the K-Mart sporting goods section when I worked there
in high school way, way back when.  Don't know about the current, but a
supercap could be used.  Then again, just a supercap by itself would probably
work for your application.

"Sean H. Breheny" wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2000\11\21@041008 by D Lloyd

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part 1 2433 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-ascii
You used to be able to obtain (9V?) 12V batteries that were about half the
length of an AA cell; these were indeed used in car alarm keyfobs. One UK
manufacturer of such was "Moss" - I had a look around for details but
nothing came up on them. Maybe they went out of business?

I do remember something similar in electronic cigarette lighters but they
might have been 6V.

I imagine the supercap is a good idea if you can get  a reasonable size to
support that current.

Dan




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I have seen 12V batteries(I seem to remember 12V, but could be wrong) for
fish
lures that had lights in them.  They were about 1/8" diameter and an inch
long.  They had them in the K-Mart sporting goods section when I worked
there
in high school way, way back when.  Don't know about the current, but a
supercap could be used.  Then again, just a supercap by itself would
probably
work for your application.

"Sean H. Breheny" wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Two quick battery questions:
>
> What type of battery would you recommend for a situation where you need
> about 9V, 20mA, for about one minute at a time (followed by about 30
> minutes of off time), repeated several times? The battery must be as
small
> and light as possible (this is for a model rocket altimeter). Are there
> coin cells capable of this current level? If so, several could be stacked
> to get 9V.
>
> Secondly, I remember small (smaller than AA size) 12V batteries being
> discussed here some time ago, but I can't find a supplier or the name of
> the type of battery. I think they might be used in wireless controls
(such
> as car door lock transmitters).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sean
>
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2000\11\21@172631 by Peter L. Peres

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>..erm the CR2 is 3v - maybe you're thinking of a different camera
>battery=20

Oops. Right. I'm thinking 6V 2 element standard photographic usage
Lithium. Whose name escapes me right now.

I stand corrected, and I'll get the name 2morrow, unless someone else
does by then ;-).

Peter

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2000\11\26@214558 by Sean H. Breheny

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Thanks to all who responded, both on and off-list. I ordered some of the
little 12V and 6V batteries (the kind used in the keyfobs) and I am going
to test them to see if they can support the drain of my application.

Sean



At 09:13 AM 11/21/00 +0000, you wrote:

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