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'[EE]: SMT soldering'
2003\01\30@054753 by dr. Imre Bartfai

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Hello All,

I need to solder SMT parts (0805, SOT23, SOIC etc.) occasionally. However,
in the catalogue of Farnell what I found soldering irons with tips which
seem to be appropriate for the said parts are called as
desoldering/reworking tools. My question is: are these nice things not
capable to solder SMT parts at all? If really not, how could I do the job?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Imre

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2003\01\30@061708 by cdb

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I have found that the best way to hand solder SMT parts is to use an iron that has a 'wave' tip or hoof tip.

They look like ordinary tips from the top, but underneath have a well which you fill with solder, squirt plenty of liquid flux gel over the pads and just wipe down the pins and hey presto one perfectly soldered SMT part.

Xytronic and Hakko are two iron manufacturers that spring to mind.

To answer your question specifically, the rework stations will solder and desolder-normally with two separate irons plugged in at the same time.

I've heard mixed opinions on the Xytronics stuff, though I'm tempted as they use Hakko bits.

Colin
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2003\01\30@095126 by Robert E. Griffith

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I started soldering SMT parts about 18 months ago.  I bought an Edsyn 951SX
soldering station.  It has a base with a temperature dial and a small wand
for soldering.  It was about $125.  I bought the smallest spade bit that was
an option where I bought it (can't remember where right now) and that's what
I use for the 0805's, 1606's, SOT23's, and SOIC's chips that I work with.  I
have not tried any chips smaller than the SOIC's.

I prefer working with SMT now.

I have one of those shovel bits that Colin mentioned but have not used it
because I found that its easy without it.  I only do prototype work, though.
I don't know yet if my work will withstand the test of time.

--BobG

{Original Message removed}

2003\01\30@095636 by llile

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Imre,

I just use a standard adjustable temp. Weller soldering iron with an
0.032" tip, the smallest size they sell.  I bought some syringes with
paste solder and paste flux.  These work a lot better for surface mount
than wire solder.  However, the old trick of laying a piece of wire solder
alongside a row of pins, and then melting it all at once still works too.
As long as you have enough flux, anyway.  I have several pairs of tweezers
with different tips, never could get those vacuum tweezers to work right.

This is a relatively slow way to do surface mount, but for occasional use
it works fine.  I never got the toaster oven method working very well.


-- Lawrence Lile





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Hello All,

I need to solder SMT parts (0805, SOT23, SOIC etc.) occasionally. However,
in the catalogue of Farnell what I found soldering irons with tips which
seem to be appropriate for the said parts are called as
desoldering/reworking tools. My question is: are these nice things not
capable to solder SMT parts at all? If really not, how could I do the job?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Imre

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2003\01\30@105030 by PicDude

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Here is another option -- I found this link some weeks ago and
thought I'd build one to experiment since it's quite low-cost.
If anyone here's used it, I'd love to hear their experiences
on how it worked/works.

http://www.usbmicro.com/apps.html

Cheers,
-Neil.



> {Original Message removed}

2003\01\30@125220 by llile

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I am going to try this today  this looks like a really good idea!     I
need to go by Radio Shark today anyway.  Now why wasn't I paying attention
when Roman Black and whomever wrote this page at USBMicro were talking
about this?

> Desoldering iron and a fish tank pump for hot air soldering gun...

-- Lawrence Lile
Senior Project Engineer
Toastmaster, Inc.
Division of Salton, Inc.
573-446-5661 voice
573-446-5676 fax




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Here is another option -- I found this link some weeks ago and
thought I'd build one to experiment since it's quite low-cost.
If anyone here's used it, I'd love to hear their experiences
on how it worked/works.

http://www.usbmicro.com/apps.html

Cheers,
-Neil.



> {Original Message removed}

2003\01\30@130647 by PicDude

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Please post results...


{Quote hidden}

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2003\01\30@141925 by Matt Pobursky

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I built one a few months ago. I've soldered 0805 chips, 1206 chips,
Tant chip caps of various sizes, SOIC and even 100 pin TQFP
(MSP430F437) using Kester solder paste. It works quite well
-- especially for the 0805's and 1206's. I'd say for the price it's a
very handy tool!

I'm also working on my SMD oven this weekend. It's a DeLongi convection
oven. Running manual profiles shows it to be very consistent. After I
do some boards manually, I am going to add a profiling controller. I
just haven't decided whether to buy one or build my own.

Matt Pobursky Maximum Performance Systems
On Thu, 30 Jan 2003 10:47:23 -0500, PicDude wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2003\01\30@165719 by Gordon Niessen

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Looking at the design, I would recommend using silicon airline.  It is
available at most aquarium shops.  It will make the device much safer and
durable.  You really never want to experience the smell of the burning
plastic airline.  :-(

At 09:47 AM 1/30/2003, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

2003\01\30@170101 by Josh Koffman

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I'm actually in the midst of designing my first SMT board, to be
soldered using the home made hot air pen. How much steel wool did you
put in the tip? I'm sure there is some happy value between slowing down
the airstream and heating it up, but it seems if you err too much on
either side, you either get a really strong, cooler airstream, or a
hotter, really slow airstream.

Also, did you put a buffer in between the air hose and the metal pipe on
the iron? It was suggested on the list to use something like the tip of
a solder sucker, and I do have an extra one, but I haven't put it in. I
figured that if I always kept the pump running while the iron was hot,
and even for a little while after I turn off the iron, it would keep the
pipe cool enough for the tubing.

As an aside, if my first attempt at this doesn't go too badly, I hope to
build a little switch box so I can control the iron and pump without
having to unplug them.

Josh
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Matt Pobursky wrote:
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2003\01\30@170812 by llile

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The water lines in a standard drip coffee maker are often silicon rubber,
and they mate just fine with the end of a desoldering pencil, the end
where the bulb is supposed to go.  They are about 6" long, and just
perfect for the job.  Don't ever throw out a busted coffee maker.

Got my parts, if I can squeeze it in today I will finish it .....

-- Lawrence Lile
Senior Project Engineer
Toastmaster, Inc.
Division of Salton, Inc.
573-446-5661 voice
573-446-5676 fax




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Looking at the design, I would recommend using silicon airline.  It is
available at most aquarium shops.  It will make the device much safer and
durable.  You really never want to experience the smell of the burning
plastic airline.  :-(

At 09:47 AM 1/30/2003, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

2003\01\30@170817 by Johnathan Corgan

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llile@SALTONUSA.COM wrote:

>  I am going to try this today  this looks like a really good idea!     I
> need to go by Radio Shark today anyway.  Now why wasn't I paying attention
> when Roman Black and whomever wrote this page at USBMicro were talking
> about this?
>
>
>>Desoldering iron and a fish tank pump for hot air soldering gun...

I've recently tried this with (very) limited success.  The comment the
article makes about being sensitive to airflow is true; I've tried a
variety of flow "restrictors" (minced desoldering wick, steel wool,
etc.) and I still either get lots of cold (well, not hot enough) air, or
so little air that it can't heat up anything (except the tip of my
finger, ouch :)  It's been able to melt bare solder placed directly in
front of the airflow, but not solder or solder paste applied to a
board/component.  Still tinkering.

A couple of things learned along the way--the air inlet tube is slightly
 too big for standard aquarium pump tubing, so you have to go up a
size. Also, the tubing gets a little soft when heated so you have to be
careful not to jostle it or it will literally rip (I put on a strain
relief to the handle of the soldering iron).  There's a warning about
turning off the iron and leaving the airflow on until it cools off to
avoid melting the tubing, but for me this hasn't been a problem.

Incidentally, I've gotten the toaster oven method to work, at least in
principle, but need to figure out a more repeatable method for
controlling the temperature profile other than "ooh, it melted, better
shut it off now." :)

-Johnathan, AE6HO

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2003\01\30@173616 by Kyrre Aalerud

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Do it like one at my university then...

He used a standard toaster.  (The kind with bread popping out...)
Then he found the right timing for the board to heat up and solder to melt
with the dial on the toaster.  Now he could repeat it every time.

The funny part was when he took another toaster to make another unit.  He
didn't disable the carridge-spring!  The board was jolted out by the
spring-system and all components were like a jumble!  It looked like someone
had random-mounted the board.
It still hangs on the wall at the university.  Very cool.

   KreAture

{Original Message removed}

2003\01\30@180241 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Kyrre Aalerud wrote:
> Do it like one at my university then...
>
> He used a standard toaster.  (The kind with bread popping out...)
> Then he found the right timing for the board to heat up and solder to
> melt with the dial on the toaster.  Now he could repeat it every time.
>
> The funny part was when he took another toaster to make another unit.
> He didn't disable the carridge-spring!  The board was jolted out by
> the spring-system and all components were like a jumble!  It looked
> like someone had random-mounted the board.
> It still hangs on the wall at the university.  Very cool.
>
>     KreAture


I am talking about toaster OVEN, not bread toster with vertical pockets.
I wonder how one could make sure the vertical position would not melt the
solder and make all components slide down... :)   Or they are using the
vertical pockets lay down on the table...

Wagner.

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2003\01\30@182627 by Kyrre Aalerud

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He was using it lying down and with a insert to hold the boards.  The insert
would position the board about centered between top and bottom heating
element.

   KreAture


{Original Message removed}

2003\01\30@183233 by Matt Pobursky

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On Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:58:14 -0600, Gordon Niessen wrote:
> Looking at the design, I would recommend using silicon airline.  It
> is available at most aquarium shops.  It will make the device much
> safer and durable.  You really never want to experience the smell of
> the burning plastic airline.  :-(

Yes, I used silicone tubing (also purchased at pet shop!). It will become less pliable with heat and time, but it definitely has a higher
operating temperature than cheap vinyl tubing. I turn on the aquarium
pump first and turn it off last after the desoldering iron has cooled
(as the original author suggests).

Matt Pobursky Maximum Performance Systems  

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2003\01\30@183935 by Matt Pobursky

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I used fine steel wool (about the consistency of human hair) and
lightly rolled it into a cylinder to fit the tip cavity. I measured the
air temperature with a thermocouple probe at the tip and found I could
get ~450ºF with my pump set to a low flow rate. I bought an aquarium
pump with an adjustable flow control.

I also used silicone aquarium tubing and just slid it over the
desoldering bulb pipe. It fits tighly enough that nothing else is
needed to keep the tubing attached. I turn on the air pump first and
don't turn it off until the desoldering iron is cooled down, no
problems with burning the tube so far.

Matt
On Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:01:04 -0600, Josh Koffman wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2003\01\30@185302 by PicDude

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Another option could be to use some silicone "fuel tubing"
from a hobby store.  This is what I used to use on model
airplanes to feed the fuel to the engine, and it's generally
made of silicone.

Here's an example...
 http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXD727&P=7

Cheers,
-Neil.



> {Original Message removed}

2003\01\30@185659 by PicDude

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So I'm thinking -- how about mounting a PC fan in a
small plastic box (like a hobby electronic project
enclosure), and running the tubing from there.  The
airflow can then be controlled by varying the
voltage to the fan, and we wouldn't have to futz
with the steel-wool etc.

Cheers,
-Neil.


Johnathan Corgan scribbled:
{Quote hidden}

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2003\01\30@191002 by Gordon Niessen

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A fan will not produce enough air pressure to flow through the tube, and
will probably over heat from the effort with no through flow.

At 05:53 PM 1/30/2003, you wrote:
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2003\01\30@200249 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 05:30 PM 1/30/2003 -0600, you wrote:


>Yes, I used silicone tubing (also purchased at pet shop!). It will
>become less pliable with heat and time, but it definitely has a higher
>operating temperature than cheap vinyl tubing. I turn on the aquarium
>pump first and turn it off last after the desoldering iron has cooled
>(as the original author suggests).

For replacement on my desoldering station, I use urethane tubing from
Home Despot, sold as fuel line. A bit more rigid than it has to be, but
nice, if expensive, stuff.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
.....speff@spam@spamEraseMEinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

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2003\01\30@202932 by Kyrre Aalerud

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Steel-wool is to maximize surface area, not to hinder flow.
With the steel-wool we get some hindering of flow and so we need a pump that
can handle a small ammount of pressure.

A aquarium air-pump will be great for this as it's very silent.  A 80mm fan
at very high speed (wich is needed) is not remotely silent.

   KreAture

{Original Message removed}

2003\01\30@205716 by Johnathan Corgan

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Kyrre Aalerud wrote:

> Steel-wool is to maximize surface area, not to hinder flow.
> With the steel-wool we get some hindering of flow and so we need a pump that
> can handle a small ammount of pressure.

I see your point.  To reach a given outlet temperature, you can increase
heat transfer surface area, or decrease flow rate so that a given mass
of air stays in contact longer, receives more heat energy, and hence
rises in temperature more.  My emphasis has been on the latter, not the
former. By restricting flow sufficiently I could get the air hot enough
to melt bare solder in mid-air, but the actual air mass from the nozzle
was so small it couldn't transfer enough heat to the solder paste on the
board.

Yet it still worked fine on my 'digital' temperature sensor (read:
fingertip). <groan>

-Johnathan, AE6HO

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2003\01\30@220800 by cdb

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How about pre-heating the air that is pumped to the nozzle, perhaps by using a Peltier device then the cooling fan for that would draw the air off the heatsink and down the tubing to the soldering iron.

Colin
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2003\01\30@224918 by Kyrre Aalerud

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Much easier to use a simple and cheap pump from a pet-store and the
steel-wool.  It's easier and almost same price.

Here: www.discountaquariumdecorations.com/eliteairpumps.html
or here: http://www.petco.com/ for cheap pumps under or around 10$

Example from petco: $10.99 Tetratech rated 80 l/hr.  That isn't more than
1.3l/min but it becomes a little abowe 22 ml/sec and that is a very nice
ammount for such an application.  (IMHO)

Any of theese will give better presure*flow than any of your 80mm fans.
The biggest cost here is the nozzle assembly, not the pump.

   KreAture

{Original Message removed}

2003\01\30@231036 by Robert E. Griffith

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I have never used a hot air soldering tool.  Why is it better for SMT parts?

I generally melt some solder on the pads, place the part (like an SO28),
tack down opposite pins, then press firmly down on each pin one by one with
a small soldering tip so that each pin bends slightly as it melts into the
solder below.

I imagine that its not desirable to bend the pins like that and when I
release the iron the pin will bend back slightly thus moving while the
solder cools, but in practice it seems to work.  Are there long term
reliability problems with this technique?

--BobG

{Original Message removed}

2003\01\30@232317 by Kyrre Aalerud

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If you remove a component and attach it again and again, you may find some
problems.
Atleast I have.

Main problem is that it's very troublesome placing components and soldering
at the same time.  Using paste one can simply put a component down on the
pads and it will stay there more or less...  For a SO18 for example one can
(if lucky) simply put on two lines of paste and it will flow beautifully
without shorting pins.  (This is magic only possible in hands of someone
experienced.)

   KreAture


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert E. Griffith" <spamBeGonebobKILLspamspam@spam@JUNGA.COM>
To: <PICLISTspam_OUTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:10 AM
Subject: Re: [EE]: SMT soldering


> I have never used a hot air soldering tool.  Why is it better for SMT
parts?
>
> I generally melt some solder on the pads, place the part (like an SO28),
> tack down opposite pins, then press firmly down on each pin one by one
with
> a small soldering tip so that each pin bends slightly as it melts into the
> solder below.
>
> I imagine that its not desirable to bend the pins like that and when I
> release the iron the pin will bend back slightly thus moving while the
> solder cools, but in practice it seems to work.  Are there long term
> reliability problems with this technique?
>
> --BobG
>
> {Original Message removed}

2003\01\31@113604 by llile

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Axial fans have lousy pressure capability.  THey are good at moving large
volumes through low pressures.  All that tubing represents a major
pressure drop.  You will get no measureable airflow with an axial fan, no
matter how tightly you seal it up.  Cough up $15 for an aquarium pump.

-- Lawrence Lile
Who used to design HVAC systems in a former life




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So I'm thinking -- how about mounting a PC fan in a
small plastic box (like a hobby electronic project
enclosure), and running the tubing from there.  The
airflow can then be controlled by varying the
voltage to the fan, and we wouldn't have to futz
with the steel-wool etc.

Cheers,
-Neil.


Johnathan Corgan scribbled:
{Quote hidden}

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2003\01\31@115331 by PicDude

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Yep -- the $15 is no problem, just that I was looking for a way to slow down
and especially *control* the airflow.  But I found out that there are small
aquarium valves available that would let me control the airflow anyway.  So
air pump it is.

Cheers,
-Neil.



> {Original Message removed}

2003\01\31@124639 by llile

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Well, the results of my first test of the homemade air pencil are not too
good.  I have a Radio Snarck 40W desoldering iron. and a WalMart air pump,
a middling sized one.  It has two air outlets, and I hooked them both up
with a "Y" connector.

I found I got the best temperature out of the iron when i turned my
aquarium pump down to 60 volts with a variac.  I stuffed the desoldering
pump pretty full of fine steel wool, from the tip end and from the bulb
end.  Coupled the aquarium pump to the desoldering iron with silicone
rubber tubing out of a coffeemaker.  It was hard to blow through the tube
after stuffing, but I could feel a breeze on my cheek with the aquarium
pump hooked up.

I am getting about 300-310C air at .5cm from the tip at 60 volts.  It is
difficult to measure accurately, since the airstream is thin.  I was
easily able to melt wire solder in about 4 seconds.  But try as I might, I
was unable to properly melt paste solder on a real board.  I did get one
or two ends to stick, but didn't get the paste solder hot enough to flow
and suck up to the pads.

Then I placed the board on an inverted steam iron, and set the steam iron
on "nylon" then "Polyester".  both without any luck in getting the hot air
pencil to work.   Tried the aquarium pump at 120V, 90V, 75 V, 60V and 50V
with the variac.

So far, I think I need to go with the E-Z bake crowd, this isn't working
for me at all.


-- Lawrence Lile





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Much easier to use a simple and cheap pump from a pet-store and the
steel-wool.  It's easier and almost same price.

Here: www.discountaquariumdecorations.com/eliteairpumps.html
or here: http://www.petco.com/ for cheap pumps under or around 10$

Example from petco: $10.99 Tetratech rated 80 l/hr.  That isn't more than
1.3l/min but it becomes a little abowe 22 ml/sec and that is a very nice
ammount for such an application.  (IMHO)

Any of theese will give better presure*flow than any of your 80mm fans.
The biggest cost here is the nozzle assembly, not the pump.

   KreAture

{Original Message removed}

2003\01\31@131755 by Johnathan Corgan

flavicon
face
llile@SALTONUSA.COM wrote:

> I am getting about 300-310C air at .5cm from the tip at 60 volts.  It is
> difficult to measure accurately, since the airstream is thin.  I was
> easily able to melt wire solder in about 4 seconds.  But try as I might, I
> was unable to properly melt paste solder on a real board.  I did get one
> or two ends to stick, but didn't get the paste solder hot enough to flow
> and suck up to the pads.

This is just about exactly my experience.

> Then I placed the board on an inverted steam iron, and set the steam iron
> on "nylon" then "Polyester".  both without any luck in getting the hot air
> pencil to work.   Tried the aquarium pump at 120V, 90V, 75 V, 60V and 50V
> with the variac.

Was going to try this next but may not bother.

> So far, I think I need to go with the E-Z bake crowd, this isn't working
> for me at all.

My only issue with this is it's "all-at-once" nature--hard to build a
prototype a bit at a time to check things before committing expensive
ICs to voltage/current.

It does work though, and if I knew more about thermocouples, triacs, and
time-lag control theory I'd cobble up a temperature profile controller
to make it more repeatable/reliable.

Guess that's why the engineers doing this for a living at a companies
that make products that people pay money for go ahead and use equipment
special-made for this purpose, instead of trying to make $20 hot air
guns and $60 reflow ovens :-)

-Johnathan

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2003\01\31@154313 by llile

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>My only issue with this is it's "all-at-once" nature--hard to build a
prototype a bit at a time to check things before committing expensive
ICs to voltage/current.

I think visual inspection for SMT prototyping is essential.  I examine my
board 100% with a 10X and 20X loupe before firing it up.  I look for a
nice fillet at each SMT component lead, and don't mind reheating a joint
or two to get them right.  I would suggest doing this after E-Z-Bake
soldering as well.

When hand soldering, I always get the power supply wroking and tested
first, so I know I am not going to reverse the juice or hook PICs up to
75VDC.  I guess this is going to be hard to do in the all-at-once system.

-- Lawrence Lile





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       cc:
       Subject:        Re: [EE]: SMT soldering


RemoveMEllileKILLspamspam@spam@SALTONUSA.COM wrote:

> I am getting about 300-310C air at .5cm from the tip at 60 volts.  It is
> difficult to measure accurately, since the airstream is thin.  I was
> easily able to melt wire solder in about 4 seconds.  But try as I might,
I
> was unable to properly melt paste solder on a real board.  I did get one
> or two ends to stick, but didn't get the paste solder hot enough to flow
> and suck up to the pads.

This is just about exactly my experience.

> Then I placed the board on an inverted steam iron, and set the steam
iron
> on "nylon" then "Polyester".  both without any luck in getting the hot
air
> pencil to work.   Tried the aquarium pump at 120V, 90V, 75 V, 60V and
50V
> with the variac.

Was going to try this next but may not bother.

> So far, I think I need to go with the E-Z bake crowd, this isn't working
> for me at all.

My only issue with this is it's "all-at-once" nature--hard to build a
prototype a bit at a time to check things before committing expensive
ICs to voltage/current.

It does work though, and if I knew more about thermocouples, triacs, and
time-lag control theory I'd cobble up a temperature profile controller
to make it more repeatable/reliable.

Guess that's why the engineers doing this for a living at a companies
that make products that people pay money for go ahead and use equipment
special-made for this purpose, instead of trying to make $20 hot air
guns and $60 reflow ovens :-)

-Johnathan

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2003\01\31@164513 by Chris Loiacono

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It has two air outlets, and I hooked
> them both up
> with a "Y" connector.

Try just using one. less air volume will raise the temp quite a bit. more
turbulent flow and less laminar will help also.

>
> I found I got the best temperature out of the iron when i ...
> I am getting about 300-310C air at .5cm from the tip at 60
> volts.  It is
> difficult to measure accurately, since the airstream is thin.  I was
> easily able to melt wire solder in about 4 seconds.  But try
> as I might, I
> was unable to properly melt paste solder on a real board.

I believe you'll find that you need to be well into the 400's (F) perhaps
close to 500F to flow 63/37 types.

> Then I placed the board on an inverted steam iron

That's a self-defeating process....IMHO
>
> So far, I think I need to go with the E-Z bake crowd, this
> isn't working
> for me at all.

Mine took close to a year to become an 'Easy-bake', and that's with 20yrs of
experience in process heating. If I don't pay close enough attention when
setting it for a job, it will still make a mess...

C

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2003\01\31@170810 by Johnathan Corgan

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llile@SALTONUSA.COM wrote:

> When hand soldering, I always get the power supply wroking and tested
> first, so I know I am not going to reverse the juice or hook PICs up to
> 75VDC.  I guess this is going to be hard to do in the all-at-once system.

One suggestion I got was to isolate portions of a circuit by solder pad
jumpers, then hand solder these as needed to incrementally test and
connect the sub-circuits together.

My stuff is all hobbyist/amateur stuff anyway, so this would be acceptable.

-Johnathan, AE6HO

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2003\01\31@181336 by llile

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Chris Loiacono <KILLspamchrisspamspamBeGoneMAIL2ASI.COM>
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       Subject:        Re: [EE]: SMT soldering


>>It has two air outlets, and I hooked
>> them both up
>> with a "Y" connector.

>Try just using one. less air volume will raise the temp quite a bit. more
turbulent flow and less laminar will help also.

Tried that, too.  At full voltage the flow would blow 0803 resistors
around the board, even with one air outlet. down to about 60V they stopped
moving around.  The pumps on the two air outlets ar independant.  THe
motor is just a coil moving a couple of magnets, so there is no reason it
should not work at lower voltages.

>
>> I found I got the best temperature out of the iron when i ...
>> I am getting about 300-310C air at .5cm from the tip at 60
> volts.  It is

>I believe you'll find that you need to be well into the 400's (F) perhaps
close to 500F to flow 63/37 types.

310C = 590F.  Maybe I should crank to voltage up on the soldering iron to
get some extra temp.

>> Then I placed the board on an inverted steam iron

>That's a self-defeating process....IMHO

Maybe so, somebody suggested it might help heat the board.  I think my
problem is the board sinks away too much heat.

>
>> So far, I think I need to go with the E-Z bake crowd, this
>> isn't working
>> for me at all.

>Mine took close to a year to become an 'Easy-bake',


I think i tried this once and was able to make it work.  I've also spent
hours bent over a board with a fine tipped iron, maybe the hours would be
better spent on a production tool.  I have some stuff that would make a
ramp controller quite easy to hack up. Or I could try the toaster ejection
method somebody suggested earlier.  <grin>









-- Lawrence Lile





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       cc:
       Subject:        Re: [EE]: SMT soldering


It has two air outlets, and I hooked
> them both up
> with a "Y" connector.

Try just using one. less air volume will raise the temp quite a bit. more
turbulent flow and less laminar will help also.

>
> I found I got the best temperature out of the iron when i ...
> I am getting about 300-310C air at .5cm from the tip at 60
> volts.  It is
> difficult to measure accurately, since the airstream is thin.  I was
> easily able to melt wire solder in about 4 seconds.  But try
> as I might, I
> was unable to properly melt paste solder on a real board.

I believe you'll find that you need to be well into the 400's (F) perhaps
close to 500F to flow 63/37 types.

> Then I placed the board on an inverted steam iron

That's a self-defeating process....IMHO
>
> So far, I think I need to go with the E-Z bake crowd, this
> isn't working
> for me at all.

Mine took close to a year to become an 'Easy-bake', and that's with 20yrs
of
experience in process heating. If I don't pay close enough attention when
setting it for a job, it will still make a mess...

C

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2003\01\31@192617 by Kyrre Aalerud

flavicon
face
Why didn't u get a cheaper pump ?
The 10$ pumps have 22 ml/sec airflow, and that should be enough for such
needle-point air-soldering.

   KreAture

{Original Message removed}

2003\01\31@195819 by Matt Pobursky

flavicon
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On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:13:48 -0600, RemoveMEllilespamspamSALTONUSA.COM wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I'm using a Million Air MA-200 pump for my hot air tool and don't have
any trouble getting mid-400ºF air @~1cm from the tip, using the lowest
air flow on the pump (it has a built in control). It works great with
Kester 276 solder paste that Digikey sells. The air flow is quite gentle
and will reflow an 0805 chip resistor or cap in about 4-5 seconds
(without blowing it around).
I purchased it for a whopping $6.99 at:
http://www.petdiscounters.com/aquarium/air/pumps/ca_ma200.html
While I was at it, I bought some silicone tubing from them too. $2.50
or so for 20 ft.
Matt Pobursky Maximum Performance Systems

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2003\01\31@201220 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
I think steel is a lousy conductor of heat, and y'all oughta search out
copper wool (which I think I've see) or experiment with shapes made from
coiled copper wire...

BillW

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2003\01\31@201627 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 05:11 PM 1/31/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>I think steel is a lousy conductor of heat, and y'all oughta search out
>copper wool (which I think I've see) or experiment with shapes made from
>coiled copper wire...

I have not been following this thread (busy, busy!) but you can get
bronze wool from marine supply shops. I bought 3 pads for something like
$8 or $10 US, which if you know anything about that kind of shop is
pretty cheap. You can also get them from MSC, IIRC.

I, also, used it for the thermal conductivity to make a flashback
arrestor for my PIC-controlled hydrogen generator.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
speffRemoveMEspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

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'[EE]: SMT soldering'
2003\02\01@054730 by Peter L. Peres
picon face
On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

*>I, also, used it for the thermal conductivity to make a flashback
*>arrestor for my PIC-controlled hydrogen generator.

PC power supply ? ;-) (going down that road in small steps myself ...)

Peter

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2003\02\01@054739 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, PicDude wrote:

*>Yep -- the $15 is no problem, just that I was looking for a way to slow down
*>and especially *control* the airflow.  But I found out that there are small
*>aquarium valves available that would let me control the airflow anyway.  So
*>air pump it is.

You can control the airflow of any aquarium pump with a $1 air faucet.

I am surprised that you go with the solder pump method, I tried this
before switching to the pencil I made out of a Weller WTCP iron. The
solder pump did not have enough power to melt solder on anything larger
than a single resistor and it took ages to do it.

I did not use steel wool in my pencil, I put the heater spiral directly
inside the tube. It ran at about 50W, with dull red color. Heat transfer
was directly from the air running through the spiral. I used an aquarium
pump. There is a message in the archives with (small) pictures.

Peter

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2003\02\01@172909 by Josh Koffman

flavicon
face
I had a thought about this. I'm no expert in fluid dynamics or anything,
so this could just be totally wrong. I will hopefully testing my version
of the hot air pencil tonight (if all goes well).

Anyway, my thought is this. Perhaps the reason Lawrence isn't getting
hot enough air because of the way he is modifying the airstream. I don't
know how the pump with the built in control works. Perhaps it just
squeezes the hose or something, thus narrowing the stream of air,
increasing the pressure, and decreasing the volume of air. Just
decreasing the voltage to the pump would seem to me to just decrease the
volume of air without increasing the pressure.

Ok, that was likely wrong...tear it apart :)

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
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Matt Pobursky wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2003\02\01@174834 by Kyrre Aalerud

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Flow is the result of the inverse relationship between pressure and
resistance.  Thus, reducing pressure will reduce flow, reducing resistance
will increase flow *and* reduce overall pressure.

Try blowing through a pipe with your hand covering half the end.  Now do it
again without the blocking.  You can use same ammount of force to move air
through, but you will experience less pressure without the block, and higher
flow.

   KreAture


{Original Message removed}

2003\02\01@203231 by Josh Koffman

flavicon
face
I think that was my point...by slightly constricting the tube, you would
get a higher pressure through the heat exchanger, but lower flow.
Therefore, wouldn't the air going through linger longer in the exchanger
and pick up more heat?

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

Kyrre Aalerud wrote:
>
> Flow is the result of the inverse relationship between pressure and
> resistance.  Thus, reducing pressure will reduce flow, reducing resistance
> will increase flow *and* reduce overall pressure.
>
> Try blowing through a pipe with your hand covering half the end.  Now do it
> again without the blocking.  You can use same ammount of force to move air
> through, but you will experience less pressure without the block, and higher
> flow.

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2003\02\01@222046 by Kyrre Aalerud

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No, the constriction is *before* the heater so the pressure only increases
there.  This also decreases pump effichiency and this is why you get a lower
airflow.

   KreAture

{Original Message removed}

2003\02\02@011814 by Josh Koffman

flavicon
face
Hmm...ok, new thought. If I tinned the SMT pads, then wiped the solder
off with a solder wick (thereby leaving the pad completely flat to the
touch, but still coated as it's no longer copper), would the solder
paste process then work better overtop of that?

I plan on experimenting tomorrow with my air pencil.

Josh
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completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
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2003\02\02@035300 by Stuart Meier

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picon face
> Hmm...ok, new thought. If I tinned the SMT pads, then wiped the solder
> off with a solder wick (thereby leaving the pad completely flat to the
> touch, but still coated as it's no longer copper), would the solder
> paste process then work better overtop of that?

I normally 'tin' my pcbs en masse - spray with rework flux, allow to dry, then using a wide tipped
iron to move a small quantity of solder across all the pads, leaving them completely flat, with no
need for the solder wick...works great for me.

Stuart

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2003\02\02@075342 by Roman Black

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Josh Koffman wrote:
>
> I think that was my point...by slightly constricting the tube, you would
> get a higher pressure through the heat exchanger, but lower flow.
> Therefore, wouldn't the air going through linger longer in the exchanger
> and pick up more heat?


Try *wattage*, a 40w iron is pretty useless, I only
really use a 60w iron these days even for tiny jobs.
Also insulating the outside of the metal tube with
some fibre tape etc may have a big effect on the
heat power pumped out the tube.
-Roman

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2003\02\02@160027 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Sun, 2 Feb 2003, Stuart Meier wrote:

*>> Hmm...ok, new thought. If I tinned the SMT pads, then wiped the solder
*>> off with a solder wick (thereby leaving the pad completely flat to the
*>> touch, but still coated as it's no longer copper), would the solder
*>> paste process then work better overtop of that?
*>
*>I normally 'tin' my pcbs en masse - spray with rework flux, allow to
*>dry, then using a wide tipped iron to move a small quantity of solder
*>across all the pads, leaving them completely flat, with no need for the
*>solder wick...works great for me.

You can tin them *with* the wick. That's how I do small boards. Soak the
wick with tin then hold it under the tip and do the board. The board will
be tinned very thinly everywhere and the wick makes sure the contact is
perfect so there is less work to do. Don't overtin the wick.

Peter

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2003\02\03@051840 by dr. Imre Bartfai

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I have got the idea, too. Unfortunately, all the pumps are available here
must be submersed into water for lubricating purposes - at least, the
salesman told me. Any workabout?

Regards,
Imre

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, PicDude wrote:

> Yep -- the $15 is no problem, just that I was looking for a way to slow down
> and especially *control* the airflow.  But I found out that there are small
> aquarium valves available that would let me control the airflow anyway.  So
> air pump it is.
>
> Cheers,
> -Neil.
>
>
>
> > {Original Message removed}

2003\02\03@121131 by Wagner Lipnharski

flavicon
face
I think the salesman was talking about water pumps... not air pumps.
All the air pumps I found lately in Pet Stores around, all of them, there
is a big sign to avoid contact with water... They heat nothing, so no
reason for refrigeration.  Water pumps are a different story.

Wagner.


dr. Imre Bartfai wrote:
> I have got the idea, too. Unfortunately, all the pumps are available
> here must be submersed into water for lubricating purposes - at
> least, the salesman told me. Any workabout?
>
> Regards,
> Imre

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2003\02\03@134423 by llile

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I made another try with the desoldering iron/air pump, but without
satisfaction.  This time I stuffed copper desolder braid up into the iron
for better heat transfer.  I packed it tight, and it restricted airflow
somewhat.  Insulated the soldering iron with fiberglass braid, and cranked
it up to 140volts, which gave me about 60 watts.   I was able to melt wire
solder easily, but wasn't satisfied with the results on the board.  I am
sure the soldering iron would burn out rapidly at this voltage.

I went back to the E-Z bake method, and had some success.  I had a
thermocouple buried in my board, which made it easier to control.  I baked
it at 60C for four minutes, (actually just let the board sit in a
preheated oven shut off) then cranked the oven up, which brought it to
215C for over one minute.

I found there was a lot of solder balls left on the board, and I had to
mechanically remove them quite vigorously.  Underneath was a good solder
joint.  I tried a toothbrush, which would not touch it, then the end of a
needle, which scraped it off pretty well.  I finally just got out a fine
wire brush and removed the stuff wholesale.  This is never a problem with
a hand soldering iron.

Do other people have to remove this stuff after reflow?  Does it seem to
take a vigorous amount of work?  I would have a hard time applying less
solder, using a syringe, I just touch the pad, don't squeeze any on at
all.  I added extra flux to the board, and I am using a combo solder, RMA
flux.  It has 2% silver content, which might make it a little higher
temperature solder.


-- Lawrence Lile



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2003\02\03@165701 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, spam_OUTllileRemoveMEspamEraseMESALTONUSA.COM wrote:

*>I made another try with the desoldering iron/air pump, but without
*>satisfaction.  This time I stuffed copper desolder braid up into the iron
*>for better heat transfer.  I packed it tight, and it restricted airflow
*>somewhat.  Insulated the soldering iron with fiberglass braid, and cranked
*>it up to 140volts, which gave me about 60 watts.   I was able to melt wire
*>solder easily, but wasn't satisfied with the results on the board.  I am
*>sure the soldering iron would burn out rapidly at this voltage.
*>
*>I went back to the E-Z bake method, and had some success.  I had a
*>thermocouple buried in my board, which made it easier to control.  I baked
*>it at 60C for four minutes, (actually just let the board sit in a
*>preheated oven shut off) then cranked the oven up, which brought it to
*>215C for over one minute.
*>
*>I found there was a lot of solder balls left on the board, and I had to
*>mechanically remove them quite vigorously.  Underneath was a good solder
*>joint.  I tried a toothbrush, which would not touch it, then the end of a
*>needle, which scraped it off pretty well.  I finally just got out a fine
*>wire brush and removed the stuff wholesale.  This is never a problem with
*>a hand soldering iron.
*>
*>Do other people have to remove this stuff after reflow?  Does it seem to
*>take a vigorous amount of work?  I would have a hard time applying less
*>solder, using a syringe, I just touch the pad, don't squeeze any on at
*>all.  I added extra flux to the board, and I am using a combo solder, RMA
*>flux.  It has 2% silver content, which might make it a little higher
*>temperature solder.

Obtain a bottle of flux remover (I use a spray can tm CRC, with built in
brush). Brush the board with the stuff, let it sit for 1 minute, blow if
off with compressed air. Done.

Peter

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2003\02\03@180200 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, dr. Imre Bartfai wrote:

*>I have got the idea, too. Unfortunately, all the pumps are available here
*>must be submersed into water for lubricating purposes - at least, the
*>salesman told me. Any workabout?

Are you sure those are air pumps ? Because there are aquarium pumps that
are really pumps and just pump water through a filter. Those do indeed
need to work immersed.

I have never seen an air pump that needs to work immersed although I know
such things exist. They are disk (Tesla) or centrifugal pumps that make
enough vacuum in the intake to suck air in, while immersed. They are not
quiet.

Peter

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2003\02\03@180409 by llile

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face
>Obtain a bottle of flux remover (I use a spray can tm CRC, with built in
brush). Brush the board with the stuff, let it sit for 1 minute, blow if
off with compressed air. Done.


Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention using the flux remover first.  I was baffled
that this stuff didn't come off like it usually does.  It seemed to be
mostly solder balls, but not really attached to anything.

I found a needle tip for the solder paste, and tried another round with
the toaster oven using the smallest dot I could make.  Hed a lot less
deposits and solder balls, but still not really acceptable.  I was able to
desolder some of these components with the air pencil if I pinched the
hose.  Still seems like a plain ol' soldering iron works well enough for
this.

Good thing the lab is kinda slow today.

-- Lawrence Lile





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On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, llilespam_OUTspam@spam@SALTONUSA.COM wrote:

*>I made another try with the desoldering iron/air pump, but without
*>satisfaction.  This time I stuffed copper desolder braid up into the
iron
*>for better heat transfer.  I packed it tight, and it restricted airflow
*>somewhat.  Insulated the soldering iron with fiberglass braid, and
cranked
*>it up to 140volts, which gave me about 60 watts.   I was able to melt
wire
*>solder easily, but wasn't satisfied with the results on the board.  I am
*>sure the soldering iron would burn out rapidly at this voltage.
*>
*>I went back to the E-Z bake method, and had some success.  I had a
*>thermocouple buried in my board, which made it easier to control.  I
baked
*>it at 60C for four minutes, (actually just let the board sit in a
*>preheated oven shut off) then cranked the oven up, which brought it to
*>215C for over one minute.
*>
*>I found there was a lot of solder balls left on the board, and I had to
*>mechanically remove them quite vigorously.  Underneath was a good solder
*>joint.  I tried a toothbrush, which would not touch it, then the end of
a
*>needle, which scraped it off pretty well.  I finally just got out a fine
*>wire brush and removed the stuff wholesale.  This is never a problem
with
*>a hand soldering iron.
*>
*>Do other people have to remove this stuff after reflow?  Does it seem to
*>take a vigorous amount of work?  I would have a hard time applying less
*>solder, using a syringe, I just touch the pad, don't squeeze any on at
*>all.  I added extra flux to the board, and I am using a combo solder,
RMA
*>flux.  It has 2% silver content, which might make it a little higher
*>temperature solder.

Obtain a bottle of flux remover (I use a spray can tm CRC, with built in
brush). Brush the board with the stuff, let it sit for 1 minute, blow if
off with compressed air. Done.

Peter

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2003\02\03@183506 by Chris Loiacono

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Just to add a bit..
The solder balls indicate a few possible things:
Either there was excess paste used;
or all the surfaces never reached and stayed at the minimum reflow temp for
long enough time;
or the heat ramp was too sharp and the flux was not given time enough to
activate.

The silver content does call for a bit more precision in balancing the time
phases of the process, but with generic 63/37 paste, it's not as hairy and
is harder to damage anything. Starting with silver content in the paste is
not a good idea IMHO.

When following the paste maker's process curve for times & temps, I have
never had soldr balls or a mess of any kind.

I suggest that the entire process needs to be controlled to get consistent
results - ramp-up, flow, and cool.

Then again, the new Salton Toaster-oven my wife bought recently is only
capable of under-cooking or burning everything from white bread to
pumpernickle bagels....so perhaps you have already out-achieved the rest of
the crew there..


{Quote hidden}

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2003\02\03@192758 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Chris Loiacono wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Solder paste deposited out of pads can melt and form small balls that can
stick to the board solder mask paint, but not much, normally you can remove
them just by touching.   Nothing that a good brush and alcohol 91° can't
remove.

Other than that, please take a look at the recent webpage I put together
about Home SMT Baking:
http://www.ustr.net/smt/index.htm

Cheers,
Wagner.

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2003\02\03@201249 by lexandre_Guimar=E3es?=

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Hi, Lawrence

> I found there was a lot of solder balls left on the board, and I had to
> mechanically remove them quite vigorously.  Underneath was a good solder
> joint.  I tried a toothbrush, which would not touch it, then the end of a
> needle, which scraped it off pretty well.  I finally just got out a fine
> wire brush and removed the stuff wholesale.  This is never a problem with
> a hand soldering iron.
>
> Do other people have to remove this stuff after reflow?  Does it seem to
> take a vigorous amount of work?  I would have a hard time applying less
> solder, using a syringe, I just touch the pad, don't squeeze any on at
> all.  I added extra flux to the board, and I am using a combo solder, RMA
> flux.  It has 2% silver content, which might make it a little higher
> temperature solder.

   The solder balls are the result of using too much solder paste ! If you
use the right amount of paste you will have a clena board at the end. I also
prefer no clean solder paste and no extra flux. If you control the
temperature right you will get almost perfect boards.

Best regards,
Alexandre Guimaraes

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2003\02\04@051329 by dr. Imre Bartfai

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Hello,

I guess you're right as I intermixed with something. There was also an air
pump which seems completely useless for me as it creates a fast (50 cps)
alternating airflow having no valves in it obviously. I never did
understand completely how such a - silly cheap and primitive - thing could
pump any air at all... :-(

Regards,
Imre

On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2003\02\04@060622 by Roman Black

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Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>
> Other than that, please take a look at the recent webpage I put together
> about Home SMT Baking:
> http://www.ustr.net/smt/index.htm


Nice page! Re the SOIC solder bridging try putting
the paste line further out towards the leg tips, not
the middle of the pads as your picture. And maybe
change the pads so that they dont extend inside
as far (under) the leg and it avoids that "Y" effect
that sucks the wet solder in towards the chip armpit.
-Roman

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2003\02\04@143257 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Roman Black wrote:
> Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>>
>> Other than that, please take a look at the recent webpage I put
>> together about Home SMT Baking:
>> http://www.ustr.net/smt/index.htm
>
>
> Nice page! Re the SOIC solder bridging try putting
> the paste line further out towards the leg tips, not
> the middle of the pads as your picture. And maybe
> change the pads so that they dont extend inside
> as far (under) the leg and it avoids that "Y" effect
> that sucks the wet solder in towards the chip armpit.
> -Roman

Thanks for the tip Roman, I will try that in the next PCB design and
production.

By the way, some emails asking me to show what is the "toaster oven" I was
talking about.
I put together another webpage about it, showing the oven and electronics
involved.
http://www.ustr.net/smt/oven.htm

Wagner.

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2003\02\05@094411 by Roman Black

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Wagner Lipnharski wrote:

> >> Other than that, please take a look at the recent webpage I put
> >> together about Home SMT Baking:
> >> http://www.ustr.net/smt/index.htm

> http://www.ustr.net/smt/oven.htm


Wow! Another great page Wagner. :o) May I provide some
comments;
* instead of just twisting the thermistor wires, cut
the "crimp tubes" off some small crimp lugs (just the
metal tube bit) and crimp over the twisted wires.
* NICE little 5 digit LCD display!
* to mount the control box, use an alloy box, mount
vertical in front of the knobs on some brass standoffs
so there is a vert air gap. The control box will stay
cool and be in a good place.
* not trying to complain but the 2 element oven type
you are using is about the worst for varying temp
zones inside the oven. This is probably a compliment to
your controller that it still works so well. A 4 bar
element oven is much better and i've recently seen
a couple of good *fan-forced* 4 bar ovens for about
$120 USD, which is better still.
:o)
-Roman

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2003\02\05@113157 by llile

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>* not trying to complain but the 2 element oven type
you are using is about the worst for varying temp
zones inside the oven. This is probably a compliment to
your controller that it still works so well. A 4 bar
element oven is much better and i've recently seen
a couple of good *fan-forced* 4 bar ovens for about
$120 USD, which is better still.
:o)
-Roman

As a toaster-oven manufacturer I would wholeheartedly agree, Roman.  A
toaster oven with four elements, two top and two bottom, will have a much
better heat pattern.

I don't agree so much about the fan-forced issue.  The fans in little
convection ovens aren't worth a whole lot, they really don't make so much
difference, at least in cooking.  There are some convection ovens (like
our Ultravection, or larger built-in type models) that have fans that
actually do something.

You can get a four element toaster oven easily under US$50, probably
US$30.  Go to a garage sale and you can pick one up for a fin.


-- Lawrence Lile
Senior Project Engineer
Toastmaster, Inc.
Division of Salton, Inc.
573-446-5661 voice
573-446-5676 fax




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Wagner Lipnharski wrote:

> >> Other than that, please take a look at the recent webpage I put
> >> together about Home SMT Baking:
> >> http://www.ustr.net/smt/index.htm

> http://www.ustr.net/smt/oven.htm


Wow! Another great page Wagner. :o) May I provide some
comments;
* instead of just twisting the thermistor wires, cut
the "crimp tubes" off some small crimp lugs (just the
metal tube bit) and crimp over the twisted wires.
* NICE little 5 digit LCD display!
* to mount the control box, use an alloy box, mount
vertical in front of the knobs on some brass standoffs
so there is a vert air gap. The control box will stay
cool and be in a good place.
* not trying to complain but the 2 element oven type
you are using is about the worst for varying temp
zones inside the oven. This is probably a compliment to
your controller that it still works so well. A 4 bar
element oven is much better and i've recently seen
a couple of good *fan-forced* 4 bar ovens for about
$120 USD, which is better still.
:o)
-Roman

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2003\02\05@153633 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Roman Black wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Again, thank you for your comments.
Any suggestion is always, unconditionally welcome.

You are quite correct, I tried to make it works in a two elements toaster,
so moving to a 4 elements will be a piece of cake... pun intended?

To tell you the truth, the home made SMT OVEN is not that far to be
produced, and it seems quite easy to do.
I was thinking about the regular larger range coil heater.  It is a 7" in
diameter and probably 600W of consume, it covers and in whole a 5x6 board.
Probably using one on top and one at the bottom, half to one inch away from
the board, would give me faster and precise heat distribution.  The board
will be as a sandwich in middle of those heaters.  A small 7x7" inner
chamber could be built with thermal reflective material (non metalic), then
directly external metalic box.  By this way, the non metalic inner material
will not absorb the thermal IR radiation and will help to speed up the
heating ramp.

Considering the very small heat loss, propably the heating ramp will be
predicted, so, applying certain power for certain time would result in a
certain expected temperature.  I guess two same built ovens like that, will
have almost the same temp heat and cool profile.  So, once you find out the
numbers, probably it will not even need a temperature controller, just a
table of PWM power vs time.  A small door and openning, will also avoid
fast cooling, it means, once the soldering is done, opening the door will
cool it down slowly.  But a different thing can happens, as there will be
no metalic walls, probably it will cool down faster, so, perhaps still with
certain power applied to the heaters with the door open would be the way to
go, to avoid fast cooling and component damage.

I tried to find data for those coil heaters online, home-depot or
something, without success. Probably need to go there and try to find out
more.  I think the great advantage of the coils, are direct and close temp
distribution, better than the straight heat elements of the normal
toasters.

So, as an example, the procedure could be like this:

====================
press go key
Start process

100% power for 10 seconds; preheat to 100F
5% power
beep

open door
Insert board(s)
close door

press go key
100% power for 30 seconds ;
20% power for 210 seconds ; 160F for 4 minutes

100% power for 40 seconds ;
50% power for 80 seconds  ; 320F for 2 minutes

100% power for 40 seconds ;
80% power for 40 seconds  ; 450F for 90 seconds

beep

open door

20% power for 60 seconds
10% power for 30 seconds
0% power for 30 seconds

beep

remove boards.
==================


As a more high-tech solution, a simply DC motor could be used to open/close
the door, what will automate the cooling process, and make it nice.

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2003\02\06@042737 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>As a more high-tech solution, a simply DC motor could be
>used to open/close the door, what will automate the
>cooling process, and make it nice.

Next you will be using an old CD-ROM drive system to push the board out the
door when cooled, and a voice chip to announce "Your board is ready Sir"
:))))

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2003\02\06@055130 by cdb

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I wonder about those older style Infra-red grills, that looked a bit like a jaffle iron with an intermediate metal riser so that cakes and things could be cooked.

Surely their heat would be more even as the top and bottom elements are sealed and are directly in line with one another.

If I had one to hand ---

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2003\02\06@113927 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Alan B. Pearce wrote:
>> As a more high-tech solution, a simply DC motor could be
>> used to open/close the door, what will automate the
>> cooling process, and make it nice.
>
> Next you will be using an old CD-ROM drive system to push the board
> out the door when cooled, and a voice chip to announce "Your board is
> ready Sir" :))))
>


Nahh, the speech system will say;

"Board will be spitted out to the floor, in 5, 4, 3..."

But yesterday, writing the door opening silly solution, it crossed my mind
to use a auto feeder system to that oven... metalic belt, go in, close
doors (front and back), bake, open doors, take it out and put another in,
etc.  Of course, a long oven, with separate temperatures inside, with a
conveyor belt, would be better, as previously discussed here...

Wagner.

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2003\02\06@120912 by PicDude

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>
> But yesterday, writing the door opening silly solution, it crossed my mind
> to use a auto feeder system to that oven... metalic belt, go in, close
> doors (front and back), bake, open doors, take it out and put another in,
> etc.  Of course, a long oven, with separate temperatures inside, with a
> conveyor belt, would be better, as previously discussed here...
>
> Wagner.
>

Like one of one of those toasters in restaurants/buffets/etc
that is open on 2 ends, and the toast darkness controlled by
varying the speed of the conveyer?  Similar to what Quizno's
uses to toast their subs.  Perhaps you should get a part-time
job there to test the SMT idea?

Cheers,
-Neil.

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2003\02\06@164847 by Wagner Lipnharski

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PicDude wrote:
> Like one of one of those toasters in restaurants/buffets/etc
> that is open on 2 ends, and the toast darkness controlled by
> varying the speed of the conveyer?  Similar to what Quizno's
> uses to toast their subs.  Perhaps you should get a part-time
> job there to test the SMT idea?
>
> Cheers,
> -Neil.


Not really, :)

The idea in a conveyor belt, is not changing the belt speed, since the belt
should be the same from the entry to exit.  The idea is to have 3 or 4
chambers over the belt, each one with a profile step temperature, and the
size (longer or short) is based on the time the board should be exposed to
that temperature, so, a 4 minutes initial profile step (160°F) should be 2
times longer than the second profile step at 325°F, and this, 150% longer
than the final step (450°F).

The transportation belt could be done in several ways, it could be also
steel wires or metallic nets.

Today I went to Lowes and saw the coiled range top heaters, 6 and 8 inches,
cost $18 and $28.  There is not a single technical information at all in
the packages.  They real don't invest in people's expertise in technology,
the manufacturers assume all consumers are dumb idiots that would be
confused if they print 500W - 110VAC unit.  The problem, probably is that
the person who makes the revision of the package printing, is also someone
that doesn't have a minimum clue what means 500W, so how it would revise
the text?  It only says about what range it fits, not even the Voltage, it
is a shame.  In some European countries you can find products like this
when they print;  size, gross and net weight, power consume, power
productivity (consume vs thermal), resistance of the contacts and some even
express expected life of the product in hours of use.  I really don't
understand then why there are laws that force food and drink products to
express how many milligrams of Sodium Benzoate or Phosphoric Acid is
present into the drink. We should assume that a regular Coca-Cola addict
has any idea what Sodium or Potassium Benzoate means? I doubt what percent
of the population really knows what "mg" means.

Well, the top and bottom heater could be done with two of those coiled
elements, and it would be a very nice finish unit, clean and resilient.

Observing the actual toaster oven working, I realize the thermal lag, is
mostly caused by thermal losses, from the metal walls and leakage in the
assembly.

Anyone around can recommend some thermal insulation material that can stand
easily 550 to 600°F?  It would be great if this material could be solid,
so, cut and adapt would be a real way to go.  This would be used to create
the inner chamber walls.

Wagner.

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2003\02\06@200913 by Jonathan Johnson

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-what about the fire bricks they use on the inside of kilns?

-a layer of heat proof glass on the inside of some well packed wall
insulation fibreglass type?

-compressed vermiculite? not sure if this is a good insulator in compressed
form

-mica lining sheets?

composite of some of the above?

there are some polymers that will withstand the heat levels involved no
worries but I don't remember which compounds, maybe someone else onlist
knows?

Cheers

JJ



{Original Message removed}

2003\02\07@045138 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:

*>Anyone around can recommend some thermal insulation material that can stand
*>easily 550 to 600°F?  It would be great if this material could be solid,
*>so, cut and adapt would be a real way to go.  This would be used to create
*>the inner chamber walls.

Mineral wool (mineral felt, aka glass felt and a couple of other names) is
used to insulate ovens up to about 600 degrees C. Make sure to handle only
with gloves, and use eye protection. The little glass shards get
everywhere (scratch scratch scratch). In normal use the wool is packed in
aluminium foil bags making 'cushions'. Maybe you should copy this idea
(wrap the cut shape in aluminium foil).

Peter

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2003\02\07@061530 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Anyone around can recommend some thermal insulation material that
>can stand easily 550 to 600°F?  It would be great if this material
>could be solid, so, cut and adapt would be a real way to go.  This
>would be used to create the inner chamber walls.

Well the obvious one is fibreglass batts as used to thermally insulate
buildings. Does require careful handling with gloves, and make sure you wear
a face mask so you do not breath in fibres, but once installed should be
perfectly OK.

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2003\02\07@112905 by llile
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>Like one of one of those toasters in restaurants/buffets/etc
that is open on 2 ends, and the toast darkness controlled by
varying the speed of the conveyer?

Made, of course, by Toastmaster Commercial Division.  [/shameless plug]

--Lawrence


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2003\02\07@113458 by llile

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What about Lydall Manningglass 1200:

UL94V-0  Nonflammable
Electrical grade nonwoven glass fiber avaliable in various thicknesses. Looks and feels like a tough sheet of thick cotton fabric Continuous operating temperature 1450F
Can be supplied with laminated foil for better performance
Recommended for furnace applications
Lydall Manning (518) 273-6320  Don't know a website.
They will let go of 8-1/2X11 samples for free, larger sheets are probably available.  I don't know if they have any distributors.  This is the type of insulation I would use around the electronics in an oven controller, for instance.
-Lawrence Lile





Jonathan Johnson <jonathanSTOPspamspamKILLspamOUTEREDGE.NET>
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-what about the fire bricks they use on the inside of kilns?

-a layer of heat proof glass on the inside of some well packed wall
insulation fibreglass type?

-compressed vermiculite? not sure if this is a good insulator in compressed
form

-mica lining sheets?

composite of some of the above?

there are some polymers that will withstand the heat levels involved no
worries but I don't remember which compounds, maybe someone else onlist
knows?

Cheers

JJ



{Original Message removed}

2003\02\07@123846 by Wagner Lipnharski

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llile@SALTONUSA.COM wrote:
> What about Lydall Manningglass 1200:
>
> UL94V-0  Nonflammable
> Electrical grade nonwoven glass fiber avaliable in various
> thicknesses. Looks and feels like a tough sheet of thick cotton fabric
> Continuous operating temperature 1450F
> Can be supplied with laminated foil for better performance
> Recommended for furnace applications
> Lydall Manning (518) 273-6320  Don't know a website.
>
> They will let go of 8-1/2X11 samples for free, larger sheets are
> probably available.  I don't know if they have any distributors.
> This is the type of insulation I would use around the electronics in
> an oven controller, for instance.
>
> -Lawrence Lile


Their webage is
www.lydallthermal.com/products_appl4.cfm?AID=2&CID=20&Cat1ID=8&DIS=A
TT
Will contact them.
Thank you Lawrence.

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2003\02\07@152251 by llile

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Wagner,
I will look up some insulation data for you tomorrow.  If you are serious,
there are better ways to get a radiant heater, such as Watlow company that
makes electric heating elements.  They are also from my home town, so maybe you will keep one of my neighbors working.
There are fiberglass insulation materials rated for these temperatures (don't use building insulation it will stink)  and this would probably not
be a bad way to go.
THe thermal lag is basically due to thermal mass of the oven.  Also, there
is overshoot, basically due to thermal mass of the sensor.  In a production oven, the temperature sensor is riveted to the oven wall, a massive piece of poor heat conducting steel, terrible place to put a sensor but plenty cheap.  Your lightwieght sensor adjacent to the board is
a much better idea.
Another great way to make a heater is to buy a bunch of nichrome wire and wind it onto a high temperature insulator such as mica or ceramics.  I just happen to have several rolls of nichrome.....


-- Lawrence Lile
Senior Project Engineer
Toastmaster, Inc. Division of Salton, Inc. 573-446-5661 voice
573-446-5676 fax




Wagner Lipnharski <wagner.....spamUSTR.NET>
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PicDude wrote:
> Like one of one of those toasters in restaurants/buffets/etc
> that is open on 2 ends, and the toast darkness controlled by
> varying the speed of the conveyer?  Similar to what Quizno's
> uses to toast their subs.  Perhaps you should get a part-time
> job there to test the SMT idea?
>
> Cheers,
> -Neil.


Not really, :)

The idea in a conveyor belt, is not changing the belt speed, since the belt
should be the same from the entry to exit.  The idea is to have 3 or 4
chambers over the belt, each one with a profile step temperature, and the
size (longer or short) is based on the time the board should be exposed to
that temperature, so, a 4 minutes initial profile step (160°F) should be 2
times longer than the second profile step at 325°F, and this, 150% longer
than the final step (450°F).

The transportation belt could be done in several ways, it could be also
steel wires or metallic nets.

Today I went to Lowes and saw the coiled range top heaters, 6 and 8 inches,
cost $18 and $28.  There is not a single technical information at all in
the packages.  They real don't invest in people's expertise in technology,
the manufacturers assume all consumers are dumb idiots that would be
confused if they print 500W - 110VAC unit.  The problem, probably is that
the person who makes the revision of the package printing, is also someone
that doesn't have a minimum clue what means 500W, so how it would revise
the text?  It only says about what range it fits, not even the Voltage, it
is a shame.  In some European countries you can find products like this
when they print;  size, gross and net weight, power consume, power
productivity (consume vs thermal), resistance of the contacts and some even
express expected life of the product in hours of use.  I really don't
understand then why there are laws that force food and drink products to
express how many milligrams of Sodium Benzoate or Phosphoric Acid is
present into the drink. We should assume that a regular Coca-Cola addict
has any idea what Sodium or Potassium Benzoate means? I doubt what percent
of the population really knows what "mg" means.

Well, the top and bottom heater could be done with two of those coiled
elements, and it would be a very nice finish unit, clean and resilient.

Observing the actual toaster oven working, I realize the thermal lag, is
mostly caused by thermal losses, from the metal walls and leakage in the
assembly.

Anyone around can recommend some thermal insulation material that can stand
easily 550 to 600°F?  It would be great if this material could be solid,
so, cut and adapt would be a real way to go.  This would be used to create
the inner chamber walls.

Wagner.

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2003\02\07@153008 by Ian McLean

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Nichrome makes good heating elements - but remember to use a current
limiting power supply !

On the subject of Nichrome ... In some recent experiments with calibrating
current meters with the stuff, I could hardly believe the strength of NiCr
wire if you twist several strands of it together.  Could not cut the braid
with any tool - even with a bolt cutter !



{Original Message removed}

2003\02\07@161025 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Ian McLean wrote:
> Nichrome makes good heating elements - but remember to use a current
> limiting power supply !
>
> On the subject of Nichrome ... In some recent experiments with
> calibrating current meters with the stuff, I could hardly believe the
> strength of NiCr wire if you twist several strands of it together.
> Could not cut the braid with any tool - even with a bolt cutter !


I produce a machine that uses Nickel-Chromium wire as a thermal element. It
is a kind of CNC styrofoam computer controlled machine.  It took certain
time to find out the correct thermal wire to be used, based on stretch and
resiliant characteristics for mechanical tension versus temperature per
wire section in sq.mm.

But yes, NiChrome wires are very tought, and they should be, Nickel is a
hard material, Chromium increase the surface hardness.  In real, by my own
experiments, you don't "cut" a NiChrome, you just rip it apart with a
cutter. If you observe the cut part with a lens, you can't see any flatness
at the incision point of the cutter, it really ruptures the wire apart.
This is probably why you can't cut the braid.

Wagner.

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2003\02\07@161245 by Wagner Lipnharski

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llile@SALTONUSA.COM wrote:
> Wagner,
>
[snip]
>
> Another great way to make a heater is to buy a bunch of nichrome wire
> and wind it onto a high temperature insulator such as mica or
> ceramics.  I just happen to have several rolls of nichrome.....


I first tought about Nickel-Chromium wire, since we use it here and have
rolls of them.
The biggest problem would be maintenance. A ruptured wire would take some
extra work to fix.
The range coil heater, in mind, first that probably will never require any
maintenance, will be very eary to replace.  The only problem right now, is
the lack of information about those heaters.  I simply can't find any at
the net, not power consume, not IR irradiated, nothing.  Perhaps I need to
do all the data collection at the bench tests.... :)

Wagner.

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2003\02\10@100831 by llile

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THe fiberglass braid may be hard to find.  We use it in our commercial
products, so we have some around, but I am not sure how to obtain it in
small quantities.  It can be salvaged out of old coffeemakers.  Never
throw out an old coffeemaker without removing the silicon rubber tubing
and the fiberglass braid.

The fiberglass braid was not essential to my project.  Also, keep in mind
that my version of the hot air pencil never actually WORKED.

-- Lawrence Lile





Jason Giglio <.....jgiglio.....spamRemoveMENetmar.com>
02/09/2003 02:12 PM


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On Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:44:05 -0600
EraseMEllilespamBeGonespamKILLspamSALTONUSA.COM wrote:

> I made another try with the desoldering iron/air pump, but without
> satisfaction.  This time I stuffed copper desolder braid up into the
> iron for better heat transfer.  I packed it tight, and it restricted
> airflow somewhat.  Insulated the soldering iron with fiberglass braid,
> and cranked

Do you use an online source for this fiberglass braid?


-Jason



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