Post by thread:[EE]: Russia 380VAC three phase power Delta or Wye

Hi Friends, I recently was asked to connect a Russian ion gun to US power. It arrived new with no documentation. The power input was labeled 380B with a sine wave symbol. The cable was not terminated in a plug. Some reverse engineering led me to believe that a wye was the most likely, and if carefully attached delta was also possible, although perhaps not at 380 volts. I ended up connecting it to 208 VAC wye and it works fine. Some of the construction and wiring techniques, and some of the parts contained within made me very hesitant to hook it to more voltage, especially since the easiest other option available was 440 VAC. My curiosity leads me to pose the question, what configuration does 380 VAC have in Russia? Thanks, Bob -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Hi Bob. 220V/50Hz is single thus 380V is three phase. Typically it is triangle sometimes they used star connection as well. WBR Dmitry. {Quote hidden}> From: Bob Blick <spam_OUTbblickTakeThisOuTSONIC.NET> > Date: 2002/06/18 Tue AM 11:26:12 EDT > To: .....PICLISTKILLspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: [EE]: Russia 380VAC three phase power Delta or Wye? > > Hi Friends, > > I recently was asked to connect a Russian ion gun to US power. It arrived > new with no documentation. The power input was labeled 380B with a sine > wave symbol. The cable was not terminated in a plug. > > Some reverse engineering led me to believe that a wye was the most likely, > and if carefully attached delta was also possible, although perhaps not at > 380 volts. > > I ended up connecting it to 208 VAC wye and it works fine. Some of the > construction and wiring techniques, and some of the parts contained within > made me very hesitant to hook it to more voltage, especially since the > easiest other option available was 440 VAC. > > My curiosity leads me to pose the question, what configuration does 380 > VAC have in Russia? > > Thanks, > > Bob > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. > > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

>> From: Bob Blick <bblickKILLspamSONIC.NET> >> Date: 2002/06/18 Tue AM 11:26:12 EDT >> To: .....PICLISTKILLspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU >> Subject: [EE]: Russia 380VAC three phase power Delta or Wye? >> >> Hi Friends, >> >> I recently was asked to connect a Russian ion gun to US power. Ok, Bob. What is it? And what do you shoot with it? At 380VAC 3phase, it sounds like it wants lots of power. Tom M. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

At 08:26 AM 6/18/02 -0700, Bob Blick wrote: >Hi Friends, > >I recently was asked to connect a Russian ion gun to US power. It arrived >new with no documentation. The power input was labeled 380B with a sine >wave symbol. The cable was not terminated in a plug. > >Some reverse engineering led me to believe that a wye was the most likely, >and if carefully attached delta was also possible, although perhaps not at >380 volts. > >I ended up connecting it to 208 VAC wye and it works fine. Some of the >construction and wiring techniques, and some of the parts contained within >made me very hesitant to hook it to more voltage, especially since the >easiest other option available was 440 VAC. > >My curiosity leads me to pose the question, what configuration does 380 >VAC have in Russia? My understanding is that it is 220 Vac per leg of a center-neutral wye which gives 380 Vac between legs. What kind of ion gun needs that kind of power? What is it being used for? dwayne -- Dwayne Reid <EraseMEdwaynerspam_OUTTakeThisOuTplanet.eon.net> Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA (780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax Celebrating 18 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2002) .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .- `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address. This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> My understanding is that it is 220 Vac per leg of a center-neutral wye > which gives 380 Vac between legs. > > What kind of ion gun needs that kind of power? What is it being used for? Hi Dwayne, I think you're right. I'd done some searching on the web and it seemed wye was the usual configuration, but you never know with power distribution and it's not my specialty. Well, I guess it is now :) It's a 6 kilowatt unit, used for research. Mostly to test the quality of optical coatings, perhaps to peel a few microns off the surface of glass. Here's a picture of the gun: http://www.bobblick.com/ion_gun.jpg The connections shown are power in and water cooling. There's a gas input connection on the backside. and the power supply: http://www.bobblick.com/ion_gun_ps.jpg Cheers, Bob -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> Wye doesn't have to have a center tap to neutral if the phases are loaded > correctly. With Delta, I don't know what you mean by "center tap of one > phase." And I definitely wouldn't connect any phase to neutral on delta > unless you like to see a lot of sparks. A direct connection to ground like > that will probably blow apart your whole fuse box and take you with it. The power company won't deliver power to you without a ground reference. All the deltas I've ever seen(and it's true I haven't dealt with many) have had the center of one phase grounded, and the furthest wire from that is called the "stinger" (for good reason). Cheers, Bob -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> Wye doesn't have to have a center tap to neutral if the phases are loaded > correctly. By definition Wye has a central neutral from which each of the phases are measured. If the phases are exactly balanced there will be no current through this connection, but that seldom happens. With Delta, I don't know what you mean by "center tap of one > phase." And I definitely wouldn't connect any phase to neutral on delta > unless you like to see a lot of sparks. A direct connection to ground like > that will probably blow apart your whole fuse box and take you with it. The secondary of a transformer wired for Delta output can be wired in any of three ways: 1: Floating - often used in manufacturing plants so that any was phase can 'ground out' without causing a hazard or lots of sparks. In this case you can connect a light bulb from each phase to earth ground and they should all glow equally bright as long as you do not have a phase fault. If a phase is grounded the corresponding lightbulb goes out and the other two reach full brilliance. 2: Corner neutral. One of the three phase points becomes the neutral and grounded voltage. 3: Midphase neutral. The midpoint between two of the phases becomes your neutral/ground. This is sometimes done to obtain 110/220 circuits from a delta circuit. Bob Ammerman RAm Systems -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

There is still a lot of so-called corner grounded Delta in St. Louis, Mo and other older sections of some other towns. This arrangement causes havoc with all kinds of things, from computer equipment to remodeling and adding juice, because it is obsolete. You probably won't see corner grounded delta in a new system ever. Modern systems do run a specifically grounded wire with the phase wires, but some of these WWII relic corner grounded delta systems didn't. If the connection of one phase to ground fails, the whole system can begin to float up to high voltage, say from leakage from a high voltage transformer or even static. Often this ground connection is just a slim chunk of thin wire to a ground rod. You could literally have 440V in a plant, but each leg is several thousand volts to ground. Eventually a motor or two fails on insulation, and the whole thing goes up in smoke without ever blowing a breaker, or motor cases become live at 4000 volts without shorting to ground because all the conduit is rusty and there is no ground cable. Meanwhile, the electrician trying to work on it thinks it is normal 440V, and fries his brains out because he shoulda been using a hotstick. Nobody likes corner grounded delta, but they are still around causing trouble. This nightmare schenario is why these things were owtlawed before I was born. --Lawrence ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Bussan" <TBUSSAspam_OUTWOODWARD.COM> To: <@spam@PICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [EE]: Russia 380VAC three phase power Delta or Wye? > Wye doesn't have to have a center tap to neutral if the phases are loaded > correctly. With Delta, I don't know what you mean by "center tap of one > phase." And I definitely wouldn't connect any phase to neutral on delta > unless you like to see a lot of sparks. A direct connection to ground like > that will probably blow apart your whole fuse box and take you with it. > > Anyway have fun, > Tony > > {Original Message removed}

Good point. Also consider center-tapped -to-ground transformers and the infamous hi-leg, while not quite as hazardous, these can also wreak havoc for troubleshooting electricians and novice designers. Since we have these scattered around the more remote parts of Florida, Russia must have all of the above, and then some.. Chris ps: What's up with your mime headers, Lawrence? Interesting how yours starts a trail of mails without 'em.... c {Quote hidden}> There is still a lot of so-called corner grounded Delta in > St. Louis, Mo and > other older sections of some other towns. This arrangement > causes havoc > with all kinds of things, from computer equipment to > remodeling and adding > juice, because it is obsolete. You probably won't see corner > grounded delta > in a new system ever. > > Modern systems do run a specifically grounded wire with the > phase wires, but > some of these WWII relic corner grounded delta systems didn't. If the > connection of one phase to ground fails, the whole system can > begin to float > up to high voltage, say from leakage from a high voltage > transformer or even > static. Often this ground connection is just a slim chunk of > thin wire to a > ground rod. You could literally have 440V in a plant, but each leg is > several thousand volts to ground. Eventually a motor or two fails on > insulation, and the whole thing goes up in smoke without ever > blowing a > breaker, or motor cases become live at 4000 volts without > shorting to ground > because all the conduit is rusty and there is no ground > cable. Meanwhile, > the electrician trying to work on it thinks it is normal > 440V, and fries his > brains out because he shoulda been using a hotstick. Nobody > likes corner > grounded delta, but they are still around causing trouble. > This nightmare > schenario is why these things were owtlawed before I was born. > > --Lawrence > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anthony Bussan" <KILLspamTBUSSAKILLspamWOODWARD.COM> > To: <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU> > Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 1:56 PM > Subject: Re: [EE]: Russia 380VAC three phase power Delta or Wye? > > > > Wye doesn't have to have a center tap to neutral if the > phases are loaded > > correctly. With Delta, I don't know what you mean by > "center tap of one > > phase." And I definitely wouldn't connect any phase to > neutral on delta > > unless you like to see a lot of sparks. A direct > connection to ground > like > > that will probably blow apart your whole fuse box and take > you with it. > > > > Anyway have fun, > > Tony > > > > {Original Message removed}

I see, Thanks, Tal {Quote hidden}> -----Original Message----- > From: pic microcontroller discussion list > [spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Bob Blick > Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 11:40 AM > To: TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: Re: [EE]: Russia 380VAC three phase power Delta or Wye? > > > > Just courious, what is 'wye' ? > > Hi Tal, > > Wye takes one leg of each phase and connects to neutral, so you have three > "hot" legs and one neutral in the center. Sort of like the letter "Y". > > Delta connects the three phases in a loop. Neutral is usually the center > tap of one phase, or one corner sometimes. > > Cheers, > > Bob > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Bob Blick wrote: >> Wye doesn't have to have a center tap to neutral if the phases are loaded >> correctly. With Delta, I don't know what you mean by "center tap of one >> phase." And I definitely wouldn't connect any phase to neutral on delta >> unless you like to see a lot of sparks. A direct connection to ground like >> that will probably blow apart your whole fuse box and take you with it. > >The power company won't deliver power to you without a ground reference. >All the deltas I've ever seen(and it's true I haven't dealt with many) >have had the center of one phase grounded, and the furthest wire from that >is called the "stinger" (for good reason). What is the 'center of one phase' ? Do you mean like the center tap of a transformer that delivers that phase ? Of course there is ground involved somewhere in a power installation. The easiest for three wire delta is three relatively large resistors connected in wye to the phases, and the center of the wye grounded. More elaborate schemes use discharge protectors etc in parallel with the resistors. Afaik you HAVE to use this (delta w/o ground) if you ship power over a buried or aerial cable with only three conductors. I think that you refer to some sort of US style lighting/domestic power scheme that I do not know of (wrt stinger etc). Peter -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseME.....mitvma.mit.edu

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Peter L. Peres wrote: > >have had the center of one phase grounded, and the furthest wire from that > >is called the "stinger" (for good reason). > > What is the 'center of one phase' ? Do you mean like the center tap of a > transformer that delivers that phase ? Hi Peter, In the US, electricity is delivered to homes as 240VAC single phase with three wires. The neutral is the center tap. Large appliances are run off the 240 volts, but outlets are 120 volts. One conductor is neutral, the other is one of the hot legs. In an industrial environment, one of the options is 240 VAC three phase delta. It is made up of the same single phase 240 VAC with center neutral, plus a fourth wire called the stinger. With this setup you run your big motors off the three wires of the delta, and your single phase 120 or 240 volt loads off the neutral and/or two adjacent wires, ignoring the stinger. Wacky, huh? I guess in the 240 VAC parts of the world, the outlets are 240 VAC with one wire neutral. That would make wye the most logical delivery method. So my connecting the ion gun power supply to wye was correct, although I was forced to undervoltage it. Cheers, Bob -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestmitvma.mit.edu

> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Bob Blick wrote: > > >> Wye doesn't have to have a center tap to neutral if the phases are loaded > >> correctly. With Delta, I don't know what you mean by "center tap of one > >> phase." And I definitely wouldn't connect any phase to neutral on delta > >> unless you like to see a lot of sparks. A direct connection to ground like > >> that will probably blow apart your whole fuse box and take you with it. > > > >The power company won't deliver power to you without a ground reference. > >All the deltas I've ever seen(and it's true I haven't dealt with many) > >have had the center of one phase grounded, and the furthest wire from that > >is called the "stinger" (for good reason). > > What is the 'center of one phase' ? Do you mean like the center tap of a > transformer that delivers that phase ? Yes -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu