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'[EE]: Russia 380VAC three phase power Delta or Wye'
2002\06\18@112706 by Bob Blick

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Hi Friends,

I recently was asked to connect a Russian ion gun to US power. It arrived
new with no documentation. The power input was labeled 380B with a sine
wave symbol. The cable was not terminated in a plug.

Some reverse engineering led me to believe that a wye was the most likely,
and if carefully attached delta was also possible, although perhaps not at
380 volts.

I ended up connecting it to 208 VAC wye and it works fine. Some of the
construction and wiring techniques, and some of the parts contained within
made me very hesitant to hook it to more voltage, especially since the
easiest other option available was 440 VAC.

My curiosity leads me to pose the question, what configuration does 380
VAC have in Russia?

Thanks,

Bob

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2002\06\18@123224 by Dmitriy A. Kiryashov

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Hi Bob.

220V/50Hz is single thus 380V is three phase.
Typically it is triangle sometimes they used
star connection as well.

WBR Dmitry.

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2002\06\18@130212 by Tom Messenger

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>> From: Bob Blick <bblickspamKILLspamSONIC.NET>
>> Date: 2002/06/18 Tue AM 11:26:12 EDT
>> To: .....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>> Subject: [EE]: Russia 380VAC three phase power Delta or Wye?
>>
>> Hi Friends,
>>
>> I recently was asked to connect a Russian ion gun to US power.

Ok, Bob. What is it? And what do you shoot with it? At 380VAC 3phase, it
sounds like it wants lots of power.

Tom M.

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2002\06\18@132502 by Tal (Zapta)

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> Some reverse engineering led me to believe that a wye was the most likely,
> and if carefully attached delta was also possible, although perhaps not at
> 380 volts.

Just courious, what is 'wye' ?

Thanks,

Tal

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2002\06\18@132914 by Dwayne Reid

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At 08:26 AM 6/18/02 -0700, Bob Blick wrote:
>Hi Friends,
>
>I recently was asked to connect a Russian ion gun to US power. It arrived
>new with no documentation. The power input was labeled 380B with a sine
>wave symbol. The cable was not terminated in a plug.
>
>Some reverse engineering led me to believe that a wye was the most likely,
>and if carefully attached delta was also possible, although perhaps not at
>380 volts.
>
>I ended up connecting it to 208 VAC wye and it works fine. Some of the
>construction and wiring techniques, and some of the parts contained within
>made me very hesitant to hook it to more voltage, especially since the
>easiest other option available was 440 VAC.
>
>My curiosity leads me to pose the question, what configuration does 380
>VAC have in Russia?

My understanding is that it is 220 Vac per leg of a center-neutral wye
which gives 380 Vac between legs.

What kind of ion gun needs that kind of power?  What is it being used for?

dwayne

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2002\06\18@143543 by Bob Blick

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> My understanding is that it is 220 Vac per leg of a center-neutral wye
> which gives 380 Vac between legs.
>
> What kind of ion gun needs that kind of power?  What is it being used for?

Hi Dwayne,

I think you're right. I'd done some searching on the web and it seemed wye
was the usual configuration, but you never know with power distribution
and it's not my specialty. Well, I guess it is now :)

It's a 6 kilowatt unit, used for research. Mostly to test the quality of
optical coatings, perhaps to peel a few microns off the surface of glass.

Here's a picture of the gun:
http://www.bobblick.com/ion_gun.jpg
The connections shown are power in and water cooling. There's a gas input
connection on the backside.

and the power supply:
http://www.bobblick.com/ion_gun_ps.jpg

Cheers,

Bob

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2002\06\18@144010 by Bob Blick

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> Just courious, what is 'wye' ?

Hi Tal,

Wye takes one leg of each phase and connects to neutral, so you have three
"hot" legs and one neutral in the center. Sort of like the letter "Y".

Delta connects the three phases in a loop. Neutral is usually the center
tap of one phase, or one corner sometimes.

Cheers,

Bob

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2002\06\18@145842 by Anthony Bussan

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Wye doesn't have to have a center tap to neutral if the phases are loaded
correctly.  With Delta, I don't know what you mean by "center tap of one
phase."  And I definitely wouldn't connect any phase to neutral on delta
unless you like to see a lot of sparks.  A direct connection to ground like
that will probably blow apart your whole fuse box and take you with it.

Anyway have fun,
Tony

{Original Message removed}

2002\06\18@150711 by Bob Blick

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> Wye doesn't have to have a center tap to neutral if the phases are loaded
> correctly.  With Delta, I don't know what you mean by "center tap of one
> phase."  And I definitely wouldn't connect any phase to neutral on delta
> unless you like to see a lot of sparks.  A direct connection to ground like
> that will probably blow apart your whole fuse box and take you with it.

The power company won't deliver power to you without a ground reference.
All the deltas I've ever seen(and it's true I haven't dealt with many)
have had the center of one phase grounded, and the furthest wire from that
is called the "stinger" (for good reason).

Cheers,

Bob

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2002\06\18@151539 by Bob Ammerman

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> Wye doesn't have to have a center tap to neutral if the phases are loaded
> correctly.

By definition Wye has a central neutral from which each of the phases are
measured. If the phases are exactly balanced there will be no current
through this connection, but that seldom happens.

With Delta, I don't know what you mean by "center tap of one
> phase."  And I definitely wouldn't connect any phase to neutral on delta
> unless you like to see a lot of sparks.  A direct connection to ground
like
> that will probably blow apart your whole fuse box and take you with it.

The secondary of a transformer wired for Delta output can be wired in any of
three ways:

1: Floating - often used in manufacturing plants so that any was phase can
'ground out' without causing a hazard or lots of sparks. In this case you
can connect a light bulb from each phase to earth ground and they should all
glow equally bright as long as you do not have a phase fault. If a phase is
grounded the corresponding lightbulb goes out and the other two reach full
brilliance.

2: Corner neutral. One of the three phase points becomes the neutral and
grounded voltage.

3: Midphase neutral. The midpoint between two of the phases becomes your
neutral/ground. This is sometimes done to obtain 110/220 circuits from a
delta circuit.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

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2002\06\18@161728 by Lawrence Lile

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There is still a lot of so-called corner grounded Delta in St. Louis, Mo and
other older sections of some other towns.  This arrangement causes havoc
with all kinds of things, from computer equipment to remodeling and adding
juice, because it is obsolete.  You probably won't see corner grounded delta
in a new system ever.

Modern systems do run a specifically grounded wire with the phase wires, but
some of these WWII relic corner grounded delta systems didn't.  If the
connection of one phase to ground fails, the whole system can begin to float
up to high voltage, say from leakage from a high voltage transformer or even
static. Often this ground connection is just a slim chunk of thin wire to a
ground rod. You could literally have 440V in a plant, but each leg is
several thousand volts to ground.  Eventually a motor or two fails on
insulation, and the whole thing goes up in smoke without ever blowing a
breaker, or motor cases become live at 4000 volts without shorting to ground
because all the conduit is rusty and there is no ground cable.  Meanwhile,
the electrician trying to work on it thinks it is normal 440V, and fries his
brains out because he shoulda been using a hotstick.  Nobody likes corner
grounded delta, but they are still around causing trouble.  This nightmare
schenario is why these things were owtlawed before I was born.

--Lawrence


----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Bussan" <TBUSSAspamspam_OUTWOODWARD.COM>
To: <@spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [EE]: Russia 380VAC three phase power Delta or Wye?


> Wye doesn't have to have a center tap to neutral if the phases are loaded
> correctly.  With Delta, I don't know what you mean by "center tap of one
> phase."  And I definitely wouldn't connect any phase to neutral on delta
> unless you like to see a lot of sparks.  A direct connection to ground
like
> that will probably blow apart your whole fuse box and take you with it.
>
> Anyway have fun,
> Tony
>
> {Original Message removed}

2002\06\18@170206 by Chris Loiacono

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Good point. Also consider center-tapped -to-ground transformers and the
infamous hi-leg, while not quite as hazardous, these can also wreak havoc
for troubleshooting electricians and novice designers.
Since we have these scattered around the more remote parts of Florida,
Russia must have all of the above, and then some..

Chris

ps:

What's up with your mime headers, Lawrence? Interesting how yours starts a
trail of mails without 'em....

c

{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

2002\06\18@183020 by Tal (Zapta)

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I see,

Thanks,

Tal

{Quote hidden}

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2002\06\20@124036 by Peter L. Peres

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On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Tal (Zapta) wrote:

>> Some reverse engineering led me to believe that a wye was the most likely,
>> and if carefully attached delta was also possible, although perhaps not at
>> 380 volts.
>
>Just courious, what is 'wye' ?

Star with 3 spokes

Peter

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2002\06\20@124042 by Peter L. Peres

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On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Bob Blick wrote:

>> Wye doesn't have to have a center tap to neutral if the phases are loaded
>> correctly.  With Delta, I don't know what you mean by "center tap of one
>> phase."  And I definitely wouldn't connect any phase to neutral on delta
>> unless you like to see a lot of sparks.  A direct connection to ground like
>> that will probably blow apart your whole fuse box and take you with it.
>
>The power company won't deliver power to you without a ground reference.
>All the deltas I've ever seen(and it's true I haven't dealt with many)
>have had the center of one phase grounded, and the furthest wire from that
>is called the "stinger" (for good reason).

What is the 'center of one phase' ? Do you mean like the center tap of a
transformer that delivers that phase ?

Of course there is ground involved somewhere in a power installation. The
easiest for three wire delta is three relatively large resistors connected
in wye to the phases, and the center of the wye grounded. More elaborate
schemes use discharge protectors etc in parallel with the resistors. Afaik
you HAVE to use this (delta w/o ground) if you ship power over a buried or
aerial cable with only three conductors.

I think that you refer to some sort of US style lighting/domestic power
scheme that I do not know of (wrt stinger etc).

Peter

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2002\06\20@131914 by Bob Blick

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On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Peter L. Peres wrote:
> >have had the center of one phase grounded, and the furthest wire from that
> >is called the "stinger" (for good reason).
>
> What is the 'center of one phase' ? Do you mean like the center tap of a
> transformer that delivers that phase ?

Hi Peter,

In the US, electricity is delivered to homes as 240VAC single phase with
three wires. The neutral is the center tap. Large appliances are run off
the 240 volts, but outlets are 120 volts. One conductor is neutral, the
other is one of the hot legs.

In an industrial environment, one of the options is 240 VAC three phase
delta. It is made up of the same single phase 240 VAC with center neutral,
plus a fourth wire called the stinger.

With this setup you run your big motors off the three wires of the delta,
and your single phase 120 or 240 volt loads off the neutral and/or two
adjacent wires, ignoring the stinger.

Wacky, huh?

I guess in the 240 VAC parts of the world, the outlets are 240 VAC with
one wire neutral. That would make wye the most logical delivery method. So
my connecting the ion gun power supply to wye was correct, although I was
forced to undervoltage it.

Cheers,

Bob

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2002\06\20@165339 by Bob Ammerman

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> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Bob Blick wrote:
>
> >> Wye doesn't have to have a center tap to neutral if the phases are
loaded
> >> correctly.  With Delta, I don't know what you mean by "center tap of
one
> >> phase."  And I definitely wouldn't connect any phase to neutral on
delta
> >> unless you like to see a lot of sparks.  A direct connection to ground
like
> >> that will probably blow apart your whole fuse box and take you with it.
> >
> >The power company won't deliver power to you without a ground reference.
> >All the deltas I've ever seen(and it's true I haven't dealt with many)
> >have had the center of one phase grounded, and the furthest wire from
that
> >is called the "stinger" (for good reason).
>
> What is the 'center of one phase' ? Do you mean like the center tap of a
> transformer that delivers that phase ?

Yes

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