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'[EE]: Replacement for Intersil ICL8038'
2007\10\04@142336 by WH Tan

picon face
[Repost with tag]

Hi,

I plan to use ICL8038 signal generator chip from Intersil.
Unfortunately, it's flagged "not recommended for new designs" on very
first page of its data sheet:

http://www.intersil.com/data/FN/FN2864.pdf

Anyone know is there any close replacement for it?  Not necessary pin
to pin compatible since I am doing new design.


Thanks & best regards,

--
WH Tan

2007\10\04@143914 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
WH Tan wrote:

> I plan to use ICL8038 signal generator chip from Intersil.
> Unfortunately, it's flagged "not recommended for new designs" on very
> first page of its data sheet:

Hmm, I remember seeing it used on an italian magazine back in the '70s :)
so definitely it is "old" !


> Anyone know is there any close replacement for it?  Not necessary pin
> to pin compatible since I am doing new design.

Can't tell easily. I see some things here and there, and also got some
samples (years ago, anyway).
What does google suggest?


--
Ciao, Dario

2007\10\04@145735 by Joćo Seabra

picon face
Check MAX038

On 10/4/07, Dario Greggio <spam_OUTadpm.toTakeThisOuTspaminwind.it> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\10\04@191717 by WH Tan

picon face
2007/10/5, Dario Greggio wrote:

> What does google suggest?

No luck so far.  Been googling for days and all I get is some kind of
'equipment' or data acquisition products etc..


Best regards,

--
WH Tan

2007\10\04@192155 by WH Tan

picon face
2007/10/5, João Seabra wrote:

> Check MAX038

Thanks very much Joao.  That is what I am looking for.


Best regards,

--
WH Tan

2007\10\04@194819 by Paul Anderson

face picon face
On 10/4/07, João Seabra <.....jseabraKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
> Check MAX038
>
>
Alas, it's even deader:
http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/1257

"          This product was manufactured for Maxim by an outside wafer
foundry using a process that is no longer available. It is not
recommended for new designs. For further information, contact us. The
data sheet remains available for existing users."


--
Paul Anderson
VE6HOP
wackyvorlonspamKILLspamgmail.com
http://www.oldschoolhacker.com
"May the electromotive force be with you."

2007\10\04@195056 by Jinx

face picon face
> > Check MAX038

> Thanks very much Joao.  That is what I am looking for.

If it helps -

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/dual_osc.html

Can throw in panel graphics too. Must have been put on CD,
can't see them on this HDD

Added some digital outputs to that as well. Intend, one day,
to add a frequency meter. Have the schematic/code for a
simple 50MHz PIC-based one

http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_108353/article.html

If you're starting from a triangle wave, this isn't too bad. Not
sure what the upper F limit is but it's OK up to at least high
audio. +/- 12V can be reduced to +/- 5V

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/tri2sine.html

2007\10\04@200236 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
Paul Anderson wrote:
> On 10/4/07, João Seabra <.....jseabraKILLspamspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Check MAX038
>>
>
> Alas, it's even deader:
> www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/1257
>
> "          This product was manufactured for Maxim by an outside wafer
> foundry using a process that is no longer available. It is not
> recommended for new designs. For further information, contact us. The
> data sheet remains available for existing users."

This was my fear too ...

--
Ciao, Dario

2007\10\04@200721 by Jinx

face picon face
> Check MAX038
>

Alas, it's even deader

Some mail-order still have them though - Digikey, Radio Spares

2007\10\04@230720 by Cedric Chang

flavicon
face
I recommend you look at the PSOC chips from Cypress.
They are cheap and may produce the waveforms you want.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSoC
Contact me off list if you want more info.

Cedric


On Oct 4, 2007, at 12:23 PM, WH Tan wrote:

[Repost with tag]

Hi,

I plan to use ICL8038 signal generator chip from Intersil.
Unfortunately, it's flagged "not recommended for new designs" on very
first page of its data sheet:

http://www.intersil.com/data/FN/FN2864.pdf

Anyone know is there any close replacement for it?  Not necessary pin
to pin compatible since I am doing new design.


Thanks & best regards,

--
WH Tan

2007\10\05@045018 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
> Anyone know is there any close replacement for it?  Not necessary pin
> to pin compatible since I am doing new design.

I think Maxim do, but you probably do not want to know that ... ;))

2007\10\05@071633 by Joćo Seabra

picon face
Damn...Im getting old... :-)

On 10/5/07, Paul Anderson <EraseMEwackyvorlonspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2007\10\05@071741 by WH Tan

picon face
2007/10/5, Paul Anderson wrote:

> Alas, it's even deader:
> http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/1257

Thanks for pointing out this.  This morning I was in rush, and grabbed
the data sheet from that link. I missed the wordings on top of the
page.


Best regards,

--
WH Tan

2007\10\05@071847 by WH Tan
picon face
2007/10/5, Jinx wrote:
> If it helps -
>
> http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/dual_osc.html
>
> Can throw in panel graphics too. Must have been put on CD,
> can't see them on this HDD
>
> Added some digital outputs to that as well. Intend, one day,
> to add a frequency meter. Have the schematic/code for a
> simple 50MHz PIC-based one
>
> http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_108353/article.html
>
> If you're starting from a triangle wave, this isn't too bad. Not
> sure what the upper F limit is but it's OK up to at least high
> audio. +/- 12V can be reduced to +/- 5V
>
> http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/tri2sine.html

Thanks. That's a bonus, if I later decide to ignore the
not-recommended 'advice' :)


--
WH Tan

2007\10\05@072744 by WH Tan

picon face
2007/10/5, Cedric Chang wrote:
> I recommend you look at the PSOC chips from Cypress.
> They are cheap and may produce the waveforms you want.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSoC
> Contact me off list if you want more info.


Cedric,

Firstly, let me have some research - to find out what is a PSOC...
probably will contact you later.


Thanks & best regards,

--
WH Tan

2007\10\05@073043 by WH Tan

picon face
2007/10/5, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

> I think Maxim do, but you probably do not want to know that ... ;))

I think I might be able to grab some ICL8038 if I want.  But since
this is a new design I'll try to find other solution. I'll probably
take it as a last bet.

Yes, apparently the MAX038 is not the answer either.


Best regards,

--
WH Tan

2007\10\05@134722 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 19:27 +0800, WH Tan wrote:
> 2007/10/5, Cedric Chang wrote:
> > I recommend you look at the PSOC chips from Cypress.
> > They are cheap and may produce the waveforms you want.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSoC
> > Contact me off list if you want more info.
>
>
> Cedric,
>
> Firstly, let me have some research - to find out what is a PSOC...
> probably will contact you later.

It's basically an MCU with analog and digital generic building blocks
included. These blocks can be dynamically configured to allow the
creation of custom peripherals. In the case of the analog blocks you can
create op amps, A/D converters, even PLLs perhaps. The digital blocks
can be configured to form counters, UARTs and other things like that.

They are neat, but I've been hit with the same issue I have with Atmel:
they obsolete parts too quickly, to the point that the newest software
doesn't support the parts I have anymore. Annoying, and it's the reason
I've never gone back to them.

TTYL

2007\10\05@144739 by Paul Anderson

face picon face
On 10/5/07, WH Tan <KILLspamwhsiung.myKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I think I might be able to grab some ICL8038 if I want.  But since
> this is a new design I'll try to find other solution. I'll probably
> take it as a last bet.
>
>
It occurs to me that you could use a DSP chip, like a dsPIC or
something similar to implement such a device in software.


--
Paul Anderson
VE6HOP
RemoveMEwackyvorlonTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com
http://www.oldschoolhacker.com
"May the electromotive force be with you."

2007\10\05@173445 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 12:47 -0600, Paul Anderson wrote:
> On 10/5/07, WH Tan <spamBeGonewhsiung.myspamBeGonespamgmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I think I might be able to grab some ICL8038 if I want.  But since
> > this is a new design I'll try to find other solution. I'll probably
> > take it as a last bet.
> >
> >
> It occurs to me that you could use a DSP chip, like a dsPIC or
> something similar to implement such a device in software.

Something like that wouldn't even need DSP, just a fast MCU with PWM
would be enough (just a lookup table, and a physical output filter).
Hitting the upper freq's available with the 8038 may be a problem
though. Distortion may also be an issue depending on what you'll be
using those waveforms for.

TTYL

2007\10\06@184108 by WH Tan

picon face
2007/10/6, Herbert Graf wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 12:47 -0600, Paul Anderson wrote:
> > It occurs to me that you could use a DSP chip, like a dsPIC or
> > something similar to implement such a device in software.
>
> Something like that wouldn't even need DSP, just a fast MCU with PWM
> would be enough (just a lookup table, and a physical output filter).
> Hitting the upper freq's available with the 8038 may be a problem
> though. Distortion may also be an issue depending on what you'll be
> using those waveforms for.

Hi Paul and Herbert,

After more than a week of searching, I am convinced that most of the
discrete analogue chips are gone.

PIC or even dsPIC is an option now. I am not worry too much about the
bandwidth because my application is targeting audio frequency range.
I didn't consider them in first place because I would like to get
'true' sine-wave rather than approximated sine-wave.  Probably I
should switch my attention to find out if I can get an audio codec to
do the same things.


Best regards,

--
WH Tan

2007\10\06@192151 by Jinx

face picon face
> audio frequency range. I didn't consider them in first place because
> I would like to get 'true' sine-wave rather than approximated sine-
> wave

I'd suggest you try the triangle-to-sine converter then (which does
work rather well). You'll notice that the ICL8038 has a converter
based on the same principle

Or an external DAC. You can expect reasonable results using logic
gates and resistors, but either that will require some fiddling or could
be that you'd get a DAC comparitively cheaply

2007\10\06@203447 by Marcel Duchamp

picon face
WH Tan wrote:
> Hi Paul and Herbert,
>
> After more than a week of searching, I am convinced that most of the
> discrete analogue chips are gone.
>
> PIC or even dsPIC is an option now. I am not worry too much about the
> bandwidth because my application is targeting audio frequency range.
> I didn't consider them in first place because I would like to get
> 'true' sine-wave rather than approximated sine-wave.  Probably I
> should switch my attention to find out if I can get an audio codec to
> do the same things.

Look up AN-31 and AN-263 pdf's from National Semi.  Then google stuff
like "bob pease sine generator" and

sine generator  ap note "jim williams " site:linear.com

and so on.  Analog devices also has published valuable stuff in this realm.

Other methods include turning square waves (easy to produce) into sines
by filtering.  In particular, you can us the MF10 filter chips to do
this.  The output may or may not be adequate for your purposes.

2007\10\08@192809 by WH Tan

picon face
2007/10/7, Marcel Duchamp wrote:
> Look up AN-31 and AN-263 pdf's from National Semi.  Then google stuff
> like "bob pease sine generator" and
>
> sine generator  ap note "jim williams " site:linear.com
>
> and so on.  Analog devices also has published valuable stuff in this realm.
>
> Other methods include turning square waves (easy to produce) into sines
> by filtering.  In particular, you can us the MF10 filter chips to do
> this.  The output may or may not be adequate for your purposes.
> -

2007\10\09@080301 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
WH Tan wrote:

>>Look up AN-31 and AN-263 pdf's from National Semi.  Then google stuff
>>like "bob pease sine generator" and
>>sine generator  ap note "jim williams " site:linear.com

I've been following this thread.
Now, just a simple/trivial hint: but, what about ROM-based tables with
waveforms (sine/triangle/square) and a software loop to output them to a
DAC?
Subsampling/oversampling should generate a wide range of frequencies.

Frequency will not be *very* high, but shold be good for audio range and
a bit more.

--
Ciao, Dario

2007\10\09@091901 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 10/9/07, Dario Greggio <TakeThisOuTadpm.toEraseMEspamspam_OUTinwind.it> wrote:
> I've been following this thread.
> Now, just a simple/trivial hint: but, what about ROM-based tables with
> waveforms (sine/triangle/square) and a software loop to output them to a
> DAC?
> Subsampling/oversampling should generate a wide range of frequencies.
>
> Frequency will not be *very* high, but shold be good for audio range and
> a bit more.

Good idea. Actually many SPWM/SVPWM (for motor drive application)
examples are using ROM (or now Flash) based data tables.

2007\10\09@144036 by WH Tan

picon face
2007/10/9, Dario Greggio wrote:

> Now, just a simple/trivial hint: but, what about ROM-based tables with
> waveforms (sine/triangle/square) and a software loop to output them to a
> DAC?
> Subsampling/oversampling should generate a wide range of frequencies.
>
> Frequency will not be *very* high, but shold be good for audio range and
> a bit more.

Firstly, thanks again to all who respond to this thread.  I appreciate
all the valuable inputs.

I will carry out some experiment soon... My apologies for not telling
much about my requirements.  Initially, I thought it would be pretty
easy to get the replacement for ICL8038... I should have made up my
mind when I failed at Google.  But instead I thought probably Google
might miss something :-)  How come those great chips can be abandoned
by their respective manufacturer ?  :)


Basically I am doing some kind of 'instrumentation' application...  I
want to generate audio range sine wave, which will be fed to a DUT
(device under test).  Initially I have put all those requirement
together:

1) Output freq can be configured by software (not a requirement but
would nice to have, isn't it?)
2) Amplitude can be configured by software
3) Distortion should be less then 2%


ROM-table driven technique should be good to satisfy my
requirements...  still searching for a suitable DAC/ probably Audio
Codec.

Or I also thinking of several fixed-freq circuits using the
suggestions by Jinx or Marcel.  Those circuits will be hardware fixed
to some interested frequency (say 400Hz, 1KHz and 10kHz) and software
will choose which one to use.


I will let you know once I complete the experiment.


Thanks again & best regards

--
WH Tan

2007\10\09@150440 by Marcel Duchamp

picon face
WH Tan wrote:
> 1) Output freq can be configured by software (not a requirement but
> would nice to have, isn't it?)
> 2) Amplitude can be configured by software
> 3) Distortion should be less then 2%
>
>
> ROM-table driven technique should be good to satisfy my
> requirements...  still searching for a suitable DAC/ probably Audio
> Codec.
>
> Or I also thinking of several fixed-freq circuits using the
> suggestions by Jinx or Marcel.  Those circuits will be hardware fixed
> to some interested frequency (say 400Hz, 1KHz and 10kHz) and software
> will choose which one to use.

Most of the analog sine generator techniques can easily have adjustable
frequency and amplitude.  Use digital potentiometers driven by your PIC.
Then you can have good quality sine wave and be in control as well.

2007\10\09@171458 by Jinx

face picon face
> easy to get the replacement for ICL8038

My very first function generator was made from a design in the
Maplin catalogue ca 1979. It's the classic op-amp + thermistor.
The spec claims 0.01% sine wave distortion at 1kHz. I still have
it, but the the RA53 was appropriated for another project, so
she no go no more

It's a very simple circuit. I'll post it shortly

2007\10\09@173522 by Bob Blick

face picon face
--- WH Tan <RemoveMEwhsiung.myspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
> Basically I am doing some kind of 'instrumentation'
> application...  I
> want to generate audio range sine wave, which will
> be fed to a DUT
> (device under test).  Initially I have put all those
> requirement
> together:
>
> 1) Output freq can be configured by software (not a
> requirement but
> would nice to have, isn't it?)
> 2) Amplitude can be configured by software
> 3) Distortion should be less then 2%

You can do DDS(direct digital synthesis) with a PIC or
similar micro but you will need to add a D/A
converter. There are also dedicated DDS chips but they
tend to be pricey since they usually even the simplest
of them are for RF. As I recall some that I played
with from Analog Devices were in the $10-15 range.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

2007\10\09@175156 by Harold Hallikainen

face
flavicon
face

>> easy to get the replacement for ICL8038
>
> My very first function generator was made from a design in the
> Maplin catalogue ca 1979. It's the classic op-amp + thermistor.
> The spec claims 0.01% sine wave distortion at 1kHz. I still have
> it, but the the RA53 was appropriated for another project, so
> she no go no more
>
> It's a very simple circuit. I'll post it shortly
>

I'll betcha it's a "twin-T" oscillator! I think one of those was HP's
first product. They used a light bulb to adjust the gain so it WOULD
oscillate but WOULD NOT clip.

The twin T is, as I recall, just an amplifier and a voltage divider. The
voltage divider has a series RC, then a parallel RC to ground. The
amplifier input is connected to the top of the parallel RC. The amplifier
output is connected to the top of the series RC. At f=1/(2*pi*R*C), the
"voltage divider" has a "gain" of 1/3 at zero degrees. If the amplifier
has a gain of 3 at zero degrees, you have an oscillator!

Harold


--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com - Advertising
opportunities available!

2007\10\09@175317 by Paul Anderson

face picon face
On 10/9/07, Bob Blick <bbblickEraseMEspam.....sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>  As I recall some that I played
> with from Analog Devices were in the $10-15 range.
>
>
There is the DDS-60 kit:
http://www.amqrp.org/kits/dds60/index.html

The chip they use can be sampled for free.

--
Paul Anderson
VE6HOP
EraseMEwackyvorlonspamgmail.com
http://www.oldschoolhacker.com
"May the electromotive force be with you."

2007\10\09@175410 by Bob Blick

face picon face

--- WH Tan <RemoveMEwhsiung.myEraseMEspamEraseMEgmail.com> wrote:

> > Frequency will not be *very* high, but shold be
> good for audio range and
> > a bit more.

Actually there are some cheap DDS chips from Analog,
$3.95 gets you a 10 bit model with 25MHz max clock.
You should be able to get a pretty accurate output
through the audio range. Check out the AD9833. Serial
I/O in a 10 pin package, 2.3 to 5.5 volts, voltage
output of sine/triangle/square wave.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

2007\10\09@184009 by Jinx

face picon face
part 1 174 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit)


> I'll betcha it's a "twin-T" oscillator !

Note -

Designed to run off one 9V battery
Original components shown (eg BC108)


part 2 8750 bytes content-type:image/gif; (decode)


part 3 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)

2007\10\10@055851 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
Bob Blick wrote:
> --- WH Tan <RemoveMEwhsiung.myspam_OUTspamKILLspamgmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>Frequency will not be *very* high, but shold be
>>good for audio range and
>>>a bit more.
>
>
> Actually there are some cheap DDS chips from Analog,
> $3.95 gets you a 10 bit model with 25MHz max clock.
> You should be able to get a pretty accurate output
> through the audio range. Check out the AD9833. Serial
> I/O in a 10 pin package, 2.3 to 5.5 volts, voltage
> output of sine/triangle/square wave.

Yeah, I know those from AD, and actually I found it strange that nobody
were advicing about them.
So I guessed that OP wanted something in the audio range, such as the
original 8038.

But I seem to remember, yes, that those DDS can do audio as well.

--
Ciao, Dario

2007\10\10@060944 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
Marcel Duchamp wrote:

>>1) Output freq can be configured by software (not a requirement but
>>would nice to have, isn't it?)
>>2) Amplitude can be configured by software
>>3) Distortion should be less then 2%
>>
>>ROM-table driven technique should be good to satisfy my
>>requirements...  still searching for a suitable DAC/ probably Audio
>>Codec.

I used a I2C DAC and a SPI DAC, and they both can reach up to audio
limits - SPI much more of course.


> Most of the analog sine generator techniques can easily have adjustable
> frequency and amplitude.  Use digital potentiometers driven by your PIC.
> Then you can have good quality sine wave and be in control as well.

In theory, this could be done creating tables in RAM with the desired
amplitude, but, even at 16bits (i.e. slow - or a dsPIC is needed), this
will not be as "smooth" as a analog trimmer.

--
Ciao, Dario

2007\10\18@073929 by WH Tan

picon face
2007/10/10, Bob Blick wrote:

> Actually there are some cheap DDS chips from Analog,
> $3.95 gets you a 10 bit model with 25MHz max clock.
> You should be able to get a pretty accurate output
> through the audio range. Check out the AD9833. Serial
> I/O in a 10 pin package, 2.3 to 5.5 volts, voltage
> output of sine/triangle/square wave.

Thanks Bob.

This one sounds really interesting...  I am still reading its data
sheet.   Unfortunately can't do any test on this one right now as I
have to wait for the part.


Best regards,

--
WH Tan

2007\10\18@075707 by WH Tan

picon face
2007/10/10, Jinx wrote:

> > I'll betcha it's a "twin-T" oscillator !
>
> Note -
>
> Designed to run off one 9V battery
> Original components shown (eg BC108)

Sometime analogue design scares me ;)   It's time for me to do some
refreshment on those kind of analogue thing.  Had been trying some
simple design with op-amp... At the moment really don't have enough
luxury to build this one :)

Certainly will keep it and try to build one later.  Thanks.


--
WH Tan

2007\10\18@175735 by Jinx

face picon face

> Sometime analogue design scares me ;)

I know what you mean. But if you break that circuit down, ignore
the switches etc, it's a basic op-amp configuration that you can
find many examples of on the web, although many probably don't
have a thermistor as the feedback element

As I mentioned, it's sitting idle because I pinched the RA53, and
now find those are bit expensive from my sources. But recently
I've been stripping down some quite large switch-mode supplies
and find they each have at least a couple of disk thermistors, of
around 80R at ambient. Might see if I can adapt the circuit to use
one. Not sure exactly what the thermistors are doing there. They
are always in pairs, close to other. It'll be for compensation of
some kind, but whether that's for frequency or current, not sure


2007\10\18@183939 by Richard Prosser

picon face
Jinx
Re the thermistors in the SMPS.

They may be there as protection. We use PTCs to protect against short
circuits on 48V systems instead of fuses. They are cheaper than
polyswitches, the initial fault current is lower and the voltage drop
under normal conditions is not of concern (and they reset themselves).

RP

On 19/10/2007, Jinx <RemoveMEjoecolquittTakeThisOuTspamspamclear.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\10\18@190946 by Jinx

face picon face
> They may be there as protection. We use PTCs to protect
> against short circuits on 48V systems instead of fuses. They
> are cheaper than polyswitches, the initial fault current is lower
> and the voltage drop under normal conditions is not of concern
> (and they reset themselves).

You could be right. These are 48V 60A Nokia supplies, and not
a fuse in sight. Some pairs are down at the coal-face amongst the
transformers and FETs (possibly operating a or bypass crowbar ?
although there is a seriously chunky relay too), some are up in the
voltage indicator (LM3914s/bar LEDs) area, and look to be
connected to comparators


'[EE]: Replacement for Intersil ICL8038'
2007\11\02@202039 by Ray Warren
flavicon
face
On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 02:23:34AM +0800, WH Tan wrote:

> [Repost with tag]
>
> Hi,
>
> I plan to use ICL8038 signal generator chip from Intersil.
> Unfortunately, it's flagged "not recommended for new designs" on very
> first page of its data sheet:
>
> http://www.intersil.com/data/FN/FN2864.pdf
>
> Anyone know is there any close replacement for it?  Not necessary pin
> to pin compatible since I am doing new design.
>
>
> Thanks & best regards,
>
> --
> WH Tan
I'' a little late replying but you might check on the XR2206.
Ray Warren

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