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'[EE]: Replace old chips ?'
2002\01\14@200151 by Jinx

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I've got this ship's clock (Wempe Chronometerwerke) to fix. The
PSU had a hissy (literally) fit and has taken out a few components.
Now I have to decide on the extent of the repairs. The ship is on
a world trip and is out of port temporarily until the 30th, when it
returns and then continues its voyage, so whatever I decide has
to be doable in a fortnight

The unit was built in 1977 and I feel I should replace all the ICs,
even those that aren't faulty. Yet. There are 11 180mm x 120mm
cards in a 19" rack, quite a few dozen ICs. The display's 74s are
history because of the PSU's fault 14V output, but the rest are
4000 series that I think will have survived

Has anyone an opinion on the lifetime of CMOS ICs, with regard
to atmospheric ingress or just electronic wear and tear ? This clock
is on 24/7/365, so there's some constant warmth and it shows no
signs at all of salt corrosion. I know that ICs unpowered for a long
time can fail when powered up but I'm not sure of the exact cause

The last job I had like this was of a similar vintage and was flakey,
to say the least. I ended up replacing a very large (450mm x 95mm)
PCB with 60 ICs with a small PIC circuit. I'm tempted to do the
same with this clock, but I'd need to do a cost analysis first and
run that by the customer. Time and the need for them to carry on
with their journey is a factor

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2002\01\15@164504 by Douglas Butler

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If the chips are socketed or you have good soldering equipment so the
risk of board damage is low, I would replace them.  But if there is any
risk of damaging the PCBs and the chips weren't out stressed beyond spec
I would leave them be.  Check if their outputs may have been stressed by
high currents at the higher voltage.  Also check any bypass caps that
may have been over voltage.

Sherpa Doug

> {Original Message removed}

2002\01\15@213804 by Jinx

face picon face
> If the chips are socketed or you have good soldering equipment
> so the risk of board damage is low, I would replace them.  But if
> there is any risk of damaging the PCBs and the chips weren't out
> stressed beyond spec I would leave them be.  Check if their outputs
> may have been stressed by high currents at the higher voltage.
> Also check any bypass caps that may have been over voltage.
>
> Sherpa Doug

Cheers. It's still a coin-flip. The ICs aren't socketed, but the
soldering's not too bad. On closer inspection (totting up the
ICs that are probably poked) several of the boards have TTL
which will have to come out. Many of them are the original 74xx
series which are hard to find now (or expensive). From what
I can glean from the web, there should be no problem replacing
them with HC or LS. The thing is, it's not just a simple clock. The
Master is set to GMT and local time. Although they must be using
GPS timing now, the secondary function of the master clock is
still needed - that is as a driver for the dozen solenoid slaves
around the ship. The overall logic is certainly replaceable by a
PIC or two but the gamble is whether it can be done by the 25th.

Hmmm, time for a cuppa and a stare

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2002\01\16@035635 by Russell McMahon

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> I've got this ship's clock (Wempe Chronometerwerke) to fix. The
> PSU had a hissy (literally) fit and has taken out a few components.
> Now I have to decide on the extent of the repairs. The ship is on
> a world trip and is out of port temporarily until the 30th, when it
> returns and then continues its voyage, so whatever I decide has
> to be doable in a fortnight


Can you provide a fuller spec of what the chronometer "black box"
outputs/inputs are?

IF the output of this device is well defined I would be EXTREMELY tempted to
replace the main works with something else. The very large number of
boards/ICs for what sounds like a simple function suggests it may do more
than is apparent (even with TTL level ICs involved).

A PIC would do a timekeeping and solenoid driver job with ease but timing
accuracy would need care. Is this the ship's primary time reference or would
it be acceptable to correct it manually occasionally.

Any old PC laptop (or most any other sort of laptop) would probably meet the
need with a solenoid driver via the printer port. Adding a temperature
sensor (if the location is not of fixed temperature) would allow you to
temperature compensate the timekeeping.
This solution has the advantage of being replaceable with other equipment.
(I may be able to supply a 386 based laptop if desired).

Even HCT doesn't like 14 volt supplies - a suitably grunty crowbar zener and
fuse may be in order if you repair the existing gear.

Pace desolderer will take IC's out of DS boards with moderate ease. Discuss
offlist if needs be.




       Russell McMahon

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2002\01\16@045435 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Cheers. It's still a coin-flip. The ICs aren't socketed, but the
>soldering's not too bad. On closer inspection (totting up the
>ICs that are probably poked) several of the boards have TTL
>which will have to come out. Many of them are the original 74xx
>series which are hard to find now (or expensive). From what
>I can glean from the web, there should be no problem replacing
>them with HC or LS. The thing is, it's not just a simple clock. The
>Master is set to GMT and local time. Although they must be using
>GPS timing now, the secondary function of the master clock is
>still needed - that is as a driver for the dozen solenoid slaves
>around the ship. The overall logic is certainly replaceable by a
>PIC or two but the gamble is whether it can be done by the 25th.

>Hmmm, time for a cuppa and a stare

It strikes me that the time has come for your customer (even if he is a
friend) to bite the bullet and buy new, because the cost and time involved
in getting this going again is going to be horrendous, and rapidly approach
the cost of a new item.

At the end of it all, even if you get it going properly, it seems to me that
the likelihood of another drastic failure in another part of it is going to
start to increase - read "climbing the far side of the bathtub curve".

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2002\01\16@063312 by Jinx

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> Can you provide a fuller spec of what the chronometer "black box"
> outputs/inputs are?

There's some info here, just for interest's sake

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/wempeosc.html

Shows the crystal (plastic case !!) on a 200x130 PCB. Chip count
is about typical, although most boards except PSU and primary
display don't have so many passives

> IF the output of this device is well defined I would be
> EXTREMELY tempted to replace the main works with
> something else. The very large number of boards/ICs
> for what sounds like a simple function suggests it may
> do more than is apparent (even with TTL level ICs involved)

Almost made up my mind to replace this rack with a PIC
(despite the 14 pushbutton functions, ack ack ack) until..........

Whilst flicking through the manual to get the circuit gif, I
realised something ominous. The secondary mode selected
is not in fact solenoid drive (which can take 24V easily) but in
fact TTL+LED digital display. The possibility then is that there
are 12 dead displays bobbing around the South Pacific. Now
THAT is going to take time to repair, which may mean they scrap
the system and start from scratch, as Alan suggested

The thrust of my original question was whether you can trust
25 year old ICs ? What to do with this thing ? Well, if they
weren't on a world trip the decision might be easier

> A PIC would do a timekeeping and solenoid driver job with
> ease but timing accuracy would need care. Is this the ship's
> primary time reference or would it be acceptable to correct
> it manually occasionally.

On board they use 220VAC. You can use 24VDC but that
has to go through a converter. Back-up is 2x6V SLA batteries
in series. Why not 1x12V or 2x12V in series I don't know

It's a beast of its time

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2002\01\16@064532 by Jinx

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> It strikes me that the time has come for your customer (even
> if he is a friend) to bite the bullet and buy new, because the
> cost and time involved in getting this going again is going to
> be horrendous, and rapidly approach the cost of a new item

Cost to replace all chips (most at retail because of 1's and 2's)
is almost $170. Then there's at least a day's labour for that,
then testing, and it still might not be right in the head. That's
not including the possibility that all of the secondary displays
are dead

> At the end of it all, even if you get it going properly, it seems to
> me that the likelihood of another drastic failure in another part
> of it is going to start to increase - read "climbing the far side
> of the bathtub curve"

I always look suspiciously at anything that's had a PSU fault. Like
a car that's been in a prang. You can fix it, but it's never quite the
same again

I'm sure I can build something cheaper than they can buy,
especially if they're not using this clock for anything more
critical than for the crew to know what time it is

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2002\01\17@092513 by Roman Black

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Hi Jinx, if it was my clock i'd replace the chips. Old
logic chips are usually very inefficient compared to
any of the modern logic chips. I spent a couple
of years repairing video game machines in the late
'80s and there were big heat problems as that era
technology used masses of chips, often 3 or 4 large
boards completely covered with chips. They cook,
you get a lot of chip failures, and potential failure
in the near future is high. Replacing them with
cheap modern chips will cause a big reduction in
heat.

Probably the choice is not up to you but the owner,
it's not gonna be cheap repair once all that labour is
factored in. One thing that might help, the failures
usually occur on hot chips or hot spots, look for
heat darkening of the board, and maybe just replacing
the hot ones will go 90% toward the same goal.
If they are all socketed and it's been run hot the
sockets will be heat fatigued and need replacing,
or better to use no sockets. There were some arcade
machines I used to open up every week and wiggle
chips in "known" areas on the boards, and then it
would work for another few days.
-Roman

PS. Use a big 5.6v 5W zener on the board supply rail,
with a fast fuse before that. Also using modern chips will
reduce the PSU strain. :o)


Douglas Butler wrote:
>
> If the chips are socketed or you have good soldering equipment so the
> risk of board damage is low, I would replace them.  But if there is any
> risk of damaging the PCBs and the chips weren't out stressed beyond spec
> I would leave them be.  Check if their outputs may have been stressed by
> high currents at the higher voltage.  Also check any bypass caps that
> may have been over voltage.
>
> Sherpa Doug
>
> > {Original Message removed}

2002\01\22@215122 by Jinx

face picon face
OK, ready to do the bizzo with this ship's chronometer

Basic fault is that the 5V line failed and put 30V through
the cards. The chips are lying around dead and dying
like a scene from Gone With The Wind. The only things
left that I trust are the handles on the case. And I've got
my doubts about one of those

The thing will have to be virtually gutted. New PSU (NO
convoluted voltage and current setting procedures with
exotic transistors, just regulators) and a PIC system. The
clocks around the ship are for the convenience of the crew
only, they play no part in the running of the ship, but they
must be accurate

Options, in order of preference -

(1) crystal oscillator, long-term accuracy implications. For
     back-up situations only I think

(2) ship's 220VAC, unsure yet of the 50Hz accuracy

(3) use data from the ship's GPS system. This appeals to me
but I know nuffink about interfacing to a GPS unit. Either I
can get the data (RS422 ?) and extract the information, or
detect the regular packets of data and reduce them to simple
timing markers, unless GPS units have a handy 1Hz output
somewhere

Any comments ?

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2002\01\22@224937 by Eric Smith

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Jinx <joecolquittspamspam_OUTCLEAR.NET.NZ> writes:
> (3) use data from the ship's GPS system. This appeals to me
> but I know nuffink about interfacing to a GPS unit. Either I
> can get the data (RS422 ?) and extract the information, or
> detect the regular packets of data and reduce them to simple
> timing markers, unless GPS units have a handy 1Hz output
> somewhere

Many GPS receivers do have a 1 PPS (pulse per second) output that
is quite suitable for this.

The actual UTC time is generally provided as an NMEA signal,
which is async at 4800 bps.  It's pretty easy to parse the data.

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2002\01\22@234644 by Jinx

face picon face
> Many GPS receivers do have a 1 PPS (pulse per second) output
> that is quite suitable for this.
>
> The actual UTC time is generally provided as an NMEA signal,
> which is async at 4800 bps.  It's pretty easy to parse the data.

Thanks. It's been suggested to me (by someone at retail level) that
sometimes the GPS might be turned off. Can't see why that would
be, especially as this is a large ship. It has 11 clocks spread over
the ship, which gives you some idea. If that's the case I think I'll
use the GPS as the primary source and a kitchen clock oscillator
(generally stable to a minute or two per year) as the secondary

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2002\01\23@030551 by Josh Koffman

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Jinx, did you get the deadline extended at all? Or is the clock still
ticking (*ahem) and are you still due for a week today? :) For my actual
contribution, as it was mentioned, check out NMEA. Should be fairly easy
to hook up to a PIC with a UART, and should be pretty easy to get the
data from it. I could have sworn I saw some sort of PIC/GPS project a
year or so ago on the net. I'd go surfing for an hour and see what you
can find.

Josh
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fools.
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Jinx wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\01\23@072533 by Claudio Tagliola

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Interfacing with a (reasonable) modern GPS is piece-of-cake, just hook
one RS232 and receive NMEA (simple ascii based protocol (ahum). Last
time I checked, I received an date/time line at 0.5 Hz.

{Original Message removed}

2002\01\23@080007 by Jinx

face picon face
> Jinx, did you get the deadline extended at all? Or is the clock still
> ticking (*ahem) and are you still due for a week today? :)

Ship docks 29th, leaves 29th. Rush rush rush, full steam, er, diesel,
ahead. It won't be back until March 29th (doing a circuit of the islands
and US Pacific coast. Some people get all the crappy jobs ;-)) ). Just
one day to get it all right. If Mr Cock-up comes knocking, we ain't home

> For my actual contribution, as it was mentioned, check out NMEA.
> Should be fairly easy to hook up to a PIC with a UART

It'll be 16F628-based so as long as I make sure the interface is
electrically compatible, there shouldn't be any problems. Watch
out for "[EE]: How to re-wire a large ship while fending off a
bellicose Chief Engineer ?"

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2002\01\23@080123 by Vasile Surducan

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There was a discution with topic: "NMEA repeater" at jallist a while ago,
also the solution was gave here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jallist
Maibe could help someone,

Vasile

P.S. Douglas Adams have damn right !




On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Josh Koffman wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\01\23@080143 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>(1) crystal oscillator, long-term accuracy implications. For
>      back-up situations only I think

Probably worth doing, and it should be able to make it so it is self
calibrating against the GPS time (see below)

>(2) ship's 220VAC, unsure yet of the 50Hz accuracy

Get a switch mode supply from RS, then frequency does not matter. A 50W (or
smaller if they have them) will drive all the electronics and displays you
are likely to need.

>(3) use data from the ship's GPS system. This appeals to me
>but I know nuffink about interfacing to a GPS unit. Either I
>can get the data (RS422 ?) and extract the information, or
>detect the regular packets of data and reduce them to simple
>timing markers, unless GPS units have a handy 1Hz output
>somewhere

Go to the Garmin (or any other GPS unit manufacturer) website, and pick up
the pdf manual for one of their beasts. Every GPS I have seen data for
provides an output in RS232 or "digital" (read 5V) form for NMEA strings.
One of these strings provides time in ASCII, and your PIC should be able to
read it in and stick it on a display with minimal processing.

By having the PIC also keep an internal clock it should be possible to store
offset parameters in EEPROM to adjust for any crystal frequency offset from
the GPS time, so if the GPS is turned off, then the clock should be able to
stay accurate enough for a reasonable length of time without the owner being
any the wiser.

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2002\01\23@083557 by Bob Ammerman

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GPS units will provide you with NMEA strings that contain the current time.
You can just use that time as long as the GPS is receiving.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

{Original Message removed}

2002\01\23@085050 by Russell McMahon

picon face
NMEA is utterly trivial to extract time from.
4800 baud string in a well defined format with time at a fixed location in
the string.

Here is two sets of data for a device with no satellite lock.
This is sent once per second.

$GPRMC has time in UTC as first data element (000101 and 000110 in two
readings here)
The clock can tell where it is as a bonus and eg set local time as well as
GMT !!!!
.

You could use this on a second by second basis or for occasional checking of
xtal clock.
.$PRWIZCH "sentence" is non standard Talon Technologies proprietary string.
Not a silly idea for a "tourist" type use - not what a sailor wants I
imagine.
_____________


$PRWIZCH,20,0,20,0,20,0,20,0,19,0,19,0,20,0,19,0,19,0,20,0,19,0,19,0*4D
$GPGGA,,,,,,0,00,,,,,,,*66
$GPGSA,,,,,,*42
$GPRMC,000109,V,3648.3912,S,17444.5462,E,0.000,0.0,290697,19.5,E*4D

$PRWIZCH,20,0,20,0,20,0,20,0,19,0,19,0,20,0,19,0,19,0,20,0,19,0,19,0*4D
$GPGGA,,,,,,0,00,,,,,,,*66
$GPGSA,,,,,,*42
$GPRMC,000110,V,3648.3912,S,17444.5462,E,0.000,0.0,290697,19.5,E*45

____________


             Russell McMahon

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2002\01\23@091838 by Roman Black

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Jinx wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Buy a high performance crystal oven, you can
use any frequency (whatever is cheap) and use
the bresenham system to give a zero error clock.
For a lot less than a GPS you get temp compensation
and reliability. But not quite as accurate. :o)
-Roman

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2002\01\23@092309 by Roman Black

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Bob Ammerman wrote:
>
> GPS units will provide you with NMEA strings that contain the current time.
> You can just use that time as long as the GPS is receiving.


Aren't most GPS modules fussy about antenna
line of sight? I've heard a lot about problems
with loss of signal going under bridges etc.
Surely in a steel ship it's going to need an
external antenna?
-Roman

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2002\01\23@100605 by Douglas Butler

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I think the point is that the ship already has a very good GPS system
for navigation.  There is no need to buy another GPS for the clocks.
However considering the age of the clock system, I wonder if the GPS may
also be anchient (for a GPS).  I would ask what model of GPS they have
and see if it has a NMEA output.  Also the NMEA output may already be
used by something else so you may have to live with whatever data format
and update rate they are currently using.

Considering that these clocks are not used for navigation, I think a
standard uP Xtal should keep time well enough for brief interruptions
like going under a bridge or even a few hours.  Try something like:

1)      Process NMEA string in buffer
2)      generate anticipated NMEA string in buffer
3)      If real string arrives overwrite generated string
4)      wait until next NMEA string should have arrived, based on uP Xtal
5)      goto 1

Sherpa Doug

> {Original Message removed}

2002\01\23@102533 by Eoin Ross

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www.parallaxinc.com/downloads/Resources/Aero%20GPS%20Brief.PDF

This is for a basic stamp ... but should give you an idea - it uses a Garmin E-trex

>>> @spam@listsjoshKILLspamspam3MTMP.COM 01/23/02 01:29AM >>>
Jinx, did you get the deadline extended at all? Or is the clock still
ticking (*ahem) and are you still due for a week today? :) For my actual
contribution, as it was mentioned, check out NMEA. Should be fairly easy
to hook up to a PIC with a UART, and should be pretty easy to get the
data from it. I could have sworn I saw some sort of PIC/GPS project a
year or so ago on the net. I'd go surfing for an hour and see what you
can find.

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

Jinx wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\01\23@111753 by SM Ling

picon face
Get the "clock" engine from a seiko or citizen wall clock, and build the
supply and interface around it ?

cheers, Ling SM

{Quote hidden}

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2002\01\23@112936 by mike

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On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 00:20:51 +0800, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Dallas do a temp-compensated 32K oscillator - this may have enough
accuracy.
>> > (2) ship's 220VAC, unsure yet of the 50Hz accuracy
Unlikely to be accurate enough.

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2002\01\23@113249 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Watch out for "[EE]: How to re-wire a large ship
>while fending off a bellicose Chief Engineer ?"

Isn't the answer to that "I need several days to do this. If you need to
leave I need food and lodging for trip duration" ;)

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2002\01\23@113436 by Douglas Butler

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Another thought:  If the ship has old electronics there are several
older satalite navigation systems that it might be using.  All the ones
I know of also provide time, not as accurately as GPS but accurately
enough for this use.  But their time outputs may not be in NMEA format.
Check that the ships "GPS" is really GPS and not another satalite
navigation system.

Sherpa Doug

> {Original Message removed}

2002\01\23@195441 by Josh Koffman

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Well Jinx, I'd be more than happy to help with the install...provided
you pay my way to you :) On the up side I don't take up much room and I
don't eat too much.

:)

Josh

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fools.
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> >Watch out for "[EE]: How to re-wire a large ship
> >while fending off a bellicose Chief Engineer ?"

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2002\01\23@200452 by Jinx

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> Well Jinx, I'd be more than happy to help with the install...provided
> you pay my way to you :) On the up side I don't take up much room
> and I don't eat too much.
>
> :)
>
> Josh

Don't mind travelling 3rd-rate freight do you ? We'll put some
holes in the box. And maybe a "receptacle". Do you know
how to be a "Fisherman's Friend" ? That'll help pass the days.
Or make them seem an eternity

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2002\01\23@223202 by Josh Koffman

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I don't mind...but will I get there by next week for the install?
Perhaps if you pay them double I'd get there twice as quick? :)

Josh
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Jinx wrote:
>
> Don't mind travelling 3rd-rate freight do you ? We'll put some
> holes in the box. And maybe a "receptacle". Do you know
> how to be a "Fisherman's Friend" ? That'll help pass the days.
> Or make them seem an eternity

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2002\01\23@232818 by Josh Koffman

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Will there be an f628 in every remote clock too? How are you going to
link them up?

Josh
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Jinx wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\01\24@072402 by Russell McMahon

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>  Watch out for "[EE]: How to re-wire a large ship while fending
>> off a bellicose Chief Engineer ?"


Don't know if this applies but SOME ships have/had floating mains systems
with neither side earthed. Could make life exciting construction wise.

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2002\01\24@092019 by Jinx

face picon face
> Don't know if this applies but SOME ships have/had floating
> mains systems with neither side earthed. Could make life
> exciting construction wise

Gee, thanks Mr Glass-half-empty ;-)

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2002\01\24@165821 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> I don't mind...but will I get there by next week for the install?
> Perhaps if you pay them double I'd get there twice as quick? :)

Maybe if you pay one half you can sit on a wing. Or hike a ride for free
using your suspenders near the takeoff runway (stand on a tall A ladder
just off the tarmac holding suspenders to a side so the wing catches them
in passing, then hang on tight).

Peter

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2002\01\24@172803 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> > Don't know if this applies but SOME ships have/had floating
> > mains systems with neither side earthed. Could make life
> > exciting construction wise
>
> Gee, thanks Mr Glass-half-empty ;-)

I'm not sure of the reason for this response but next time I'll remember not
to warn you when your glass may not be earthed :-)



           R (m.g.h.e.) M

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2002\01\24@201725 by Jinx

face picon face
> > Gee, thanks Mr Glass-half-empty ;-)
>
> I'm not sure of the reason for this response but next time I'll
> remember not to warn you when your glass may not be earthed :-)

Luckily I always carry my own earth. Well, dirt actually, but that's
just between you and me, right ?

As for the clock situation, I've priced it and waiting for an
answer back from the owner in Crete (could've said Cretan
but that doesn't sound very nice). Now the weekend's here
and a public holiday on Monday

Rubbing my crystal ball (just above my wooden leg), I foresee
a mad dash panic on Tuesday

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2002\01\25@015012 by Jinx

face picon face
> Don't know if this applies but SOME ships have/had floating
> mains systems with neither side earthed. Could make life
> exciting construction wise

The ship's engineer has faxed that the mains is produced by
"a standard method", his words, varying from 58Hz to 61Hz

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2002\01\25@094316 by Bob Barr

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On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:20:25 +1300, Jinx wrote:

>> Don't know if this applies but SOME ships have/had floating
>> mains systems with neither side earthed. Could make life
>> exciting construction wise
>
>The ship's engineer has faxed that the mains is produced by
>"a standard method", his words, varying from 58Hz to 61Hz

The only question remaining then is: *which* standard method? :=)

Regards, Bob

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2002\01\25@161149 by Jinx

face picon face
>The ship's engineer has faxed that the mains is produced by
>"a standard method", his words, varying from 58Hz to 61Hz

The only question remaining then is: *which* standard method? :=)

Wha'e'er the dilithium crystals say it is cap'n. Och, yae canna
change the laws o' physics

It's probably not too important whether they have +/- 0% on
board. As long as they can run the toaster, kettle, lights, porn
VCR, computers, and other home comforts

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2002\01\26@063506 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
>> Don't know if this applies but SOME ships have/had floating
>> mains systems with neither side earthed. Could make life
>> exciting construction wise
>
>The ship's engineer has faxed that the mains is produced by
>"a standard method", his words, varying from 58Hz to 61Hz
>Re: [EE]: Replace old chips ?

Means they're using a standard motor-generator with its controller. Forget
about that as a clock source.

Imvho you could gamble and make a simple clock with a PIC and use a TCXO
or an ovenized XO off the shelf ($40 to $150) which will buy you 0.5ppm
(15 seconds per year deviation, or 1+ second/month), unadjusted, and
better adjusted - but you prolly don't have the means for proper
adjustment at that precision range since you're asking. You could add a
NMEA (GPS) stream to set the clock once in a while. (I suspect that the
readout displays show seconds at best so aiming for cesium clock accuracy
will be slightly overkill).

I think that the (old ?, mechanical) naval chronometer standard requires 2
weeks or running reserve and 1 second deviation per month. If you match
that you can probably call it a uncertified naval chronometer and not be
sued too (but check my numbers...).

Peter

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2002\01\26@083224 by Jinx

face picon face
> Means they're using a standard motor-generator with its
> controller. Forget about that as a clock source

It was always going to be well down the list, so no big loss
>
> Imvho you could gamble and make a simple clock with a PIC
> and use a TCXO

The situation as it stands is that I'm taking a gamble already.
The owner hasn't OK'ed the work yet, and there'll be only one
"official" working day before the ship's due in, and then just
a matter of hours to install it. So I've decided to go ahead,
as I can get pretty close to finishing with the extra Sat/Sun/Mon
to play with. Their clock is a basket case anyway, so I'm betting
that the repairs will be approved. At least this way I'll be one step
ahead. But just in case, I'm keeping the materials budget right
down so I'm not too much out of pocket if I get stuck with what
I've made. And there are some materials to be scavenged from
the old one

Unfortunately that rules out anything fancy like GPS. If there
was more time to tinker about, I'd be up for it

> I think that the (old ?, mechanical) naval chronometer standard
> requires 2 weeks or running reserve and 1 second deviation
> per month. If you match that you can probably call it a uncertified
> naval chronometer and not be sued too (but check my numbers...)

Since GPS came in, the clock (now 25 years old) has been relegated
to merely telling the crew the time, so it need be only as accurate
as their wrist watches (phew). The flap is all about getting it installed,
and, just as difficult,  trying to decipher the damn manual. Already
discovered the LED displays (which they want to keep) are cooked,
and well on the way to writing PIC code to replace the dozens of
original TTL. If the job doesn't go ahead, at least I'll come away with
a nice new working display

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2002\01\28@170959 by Jinx

face picon face
I fought the Law (s of chance), and the Law won

Still mulling this over. As you know, the ship's clock was
completely stuffed, little time to get it replaced so I took
a punt and tried to get some ground covered before the
job was approved

It wasn't. But what has me baffled is the "we'll look around
for something" response I had to solicit from the managing
company this morning. Here's the original Wempe plus the
functionally equivalent PIC (only minimal s/w)

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/wempeosc.html

"something" ? An unpaid midget with a stopwatch ? Good
luck guys, bet I see you in 6 weeks

In the meantime, have a chew on this service bill

=============================================

(thanks to the list for the responses to the enquiry, I'm sure
it will all come into use in the fullness of time)

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2002\01\28@205430 by Josh Koffman

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Sorry to hear about that Jinx. Maybe they'll just go for a bunch of
standard kitchen clocks afixed to the walls? A pain to adjust all
separately though I suppose. As a bit of payback, you could go into the
naval clock business and buy up all the other clock companies so they
have to come back to you. (insert evil laugh here). Anyway, I hope the
repair bill at least covers most of your time.

Josh
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completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
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Jinx wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\01\28@212926 by Jinx

face picon face
> Sorry to hear about that Jinx.

The daft thing is that they took the old one away to put back
in the ship. ?????? Maybe it plugs up a hole. I have one in
mind

It is a little bewildering as I had about 20 hours programming
time available, and it's not the toughest job as there are previous
jobs to build on, so there was every possibility that the matter
could have been settled before departure tomorrow

> Maybe they'll just go for a bunch of standard kitchen clocks
> afixed to the walls?

No chance of that. All "local time" remotes are controlled from
the bridge But I'll be interested to see what they can find that's
better than what I had on offer, both in terms of performance
and cost. Even some cursory investigation has revealed that
US$3000 is a starting point, and for that they'd need to replace
the clocks as well, which they don't need to. Sigh. People are
funny aren't they ?

The repair bill mostly covered relating the manual to the circuits
and verifying that the machine was uneconomic to repair, so I'm
fairly happy. A little disappointed but more than enough other things
to be getting on with. Spent nothing on parts. Get them on the way
back, don't worry ;-)

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2002\01\29@212823 by Josh Koffman

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As a side note to Jinx's "not happening yet" project...how about this
for a bunch of remote controllable clocks. What if you got a number of
those radio controlled clocks that sync up to the WWV atomic clock
signal. I've never looked in one, but perhaps you could detune it
slightly, and make a low powered transmitter to mimic WWV and take
remote control of them? I don't know if they broadcast time signals on
other continents, so perhaps you wouldn't have to detune them at all.
Comments? Instead of using them as clocks, perhaps you could get them to
work as remote displays for a countdown timer or something. Granted
going with an off the shelf RF module and a PIC would probably be
cheaper, but is all this even possible?

Just an idea that popped into my head.

Josh
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completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
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Jinx wrote:
>
> The daft thing is that they took the old one away to put back
> in the ship. ?????? Maybe it plugs up a hole. I have one in
> mind

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'[EE]: Replace old chips ?'
2002\02\01@075426 by Alan B. Pearce
face picon face
>As a side note to Jinx's "not happening yet" project...how about this
>for a bunch of remote controllable clocks. What if you got a number of
>those radio controlled clocks that sync up to the WWV atomic clock
>signal. I've never looked in one, but perhaps you could detune it
>slightly, and make a low powered transmitter to mimic WWV and take
>remote control of them? I don't know if they broadcast time signals on
>other continents, so perhaps you wouldn't have to detune them at all.
>Comments? Instead of using them as clocks, perhaps you could get them to
>work as remote displays for a countdown timer or something. Granted
>going with an off the shelf RF module and a PIC would probably be
>cheaper, but is all this even possible?
>
>Just an idea that popped into my head.

Not a bad idea. Note that the 60KHz transmissions also are available in the
UK and Europe (somewhere in Germany I believe). I think they all use the
same data format, I do have a PDF somewhere that describes the UK format.

Sorry this is way behind the thread, I have had a week off sick.

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2002\02\01@080619 by J.Feldhaar

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"Alan B. Pearce" schrieb:
>
> >As a side note to Jinx's "not happening yet" project...how about this
> >for a bunch of remote controllable clocks. What if you got a number of
> >those radio controlled clocks that sync up to the WWV atomic clock
> >signal. I've never looked in one, but perhaps you could detune it
> >slightly, and make a low powered transmitter to mimic WWV and take
> >remote control of them? I don't know if they broadcast time signals on
> >other continents, so perhaps you wouldn't have to detune them at all.
> >Comments? Instead of using them as clocks, perhaps you could get them to
> >work as remote displays for a countdown timer or something. Granted
> >going with an off the shelf RF module and a PIC would probably be
> >cheaper, but is all this even possible?
> >
> >Just an idea that popped into my head.
>
> Not a bad idea. Note that the 60KHz transmissions also are available in the
> UK and Europe (somewhere in Germany I believe)
Hi List,

the transmitter is a little east of Frankfurt/Main in central Germany,
frequency is 77.5 KHz, modulated in amplitude drops of 100 msec and 200
msec for the info bits. Range is said to be 1500 km (abt 1000 miles)

Jochen Feldhaar DH6FAZ
. I think they all use the
> same data format, I do have a PDF somewhere that describes the UK format.
>
> Sorry this is way behind the thread, I have had a week off sick.
>
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2002\02\01@084440 by Peter Onion

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On 01-Feb-02 J.Feldhaar wrote:

> the transmitter is a little east of Frankfurt/Main in central Germany,
> frequency is 77.5 KHz, modulated in amplitude drops of 100 msec and 200
> msec for the info bits. Range is said to be 1500 km (abt 1000 miles)

That is DCF77...  The 60kHz signal comes from MSF at Rugby in the UK.

http://www.npl.co.uk/npl/ctm/msf.html

I have PIC code to decode the bit stream if anyone is interested.

Peter


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