Post by thread:[EE]: Removing chip labeling

> Anyone know what (chemical) I can use to remove the > writing/labeling from DIP > IC cases? I think most are plastic. If you are thinking it might deter reverse engineering forget about it, a part without labels will take maybe an extra minute for someone to reverse engineer it. TTYL -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email .....listservKILLspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Not really -- I want to paint on my own wording for fun. I figured it might be common practice. Cheers, -Neil. On Sunday 25 May 2003 01:01, Herbert Graf scribbled: > > Anyone know what (chemical) I can use to remove the > > writing/labeling from DIP > > IC cases? I think most are plastic. > > If you are thinking it might deter reverse engineering forget about > it, a part without labels will take maybe an extra minute for someone to > reverse engineer it. TTYL -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

At 11:54 PM 24/05/03, you wrote: >Not really -- I want to paint on my own wording for fun. >I figured it might be common practice. If you give it a couple of hits with some 600grit sandpaper its clean and smooth. We used to do this on a sanding drum on the drill press which was a thrill once in a while as they went whiz across the room if you slipped. It may not stop anyone from figuring it out but it can slow them down. Sand the ident off and imbed it in epoxy and its a total PIA to start to figure it out. Dave -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email .....listservKILLspam.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> Anyone know what (chemical) I can use to remove the writing/labeling > from DIP IC cases? I think most are plastic. A complex of Mg3Al2Si3O12 in laminar form - commonly available on a processed cellulose base and going by the name "garnet paper" Iron, in a suitably abrasive form, works well too -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservspam_OUTTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Safest thing to use is an electric drafting eraser. The most abrasive "eraser" material does a complete job quicjky. --Bob Axtell At 12:34 AM 5/25/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Anyone know what (chemical) I can use to remove the writing/labeling from DIP >IC cases? I think most are plastic. > >Cheers, >-Neil. > >-- >http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! >email listservspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body -------------------------- -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email @spam@listservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Dremmel with a flap disk of sandpaper Steve.. -----Original Message----- From: pic microcontroller discussion list [KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Axtell Sent: 25 May 2003 10:26 To: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU Subject: Re: [EE]: Removing chip labeling Safest thing to use is an electric drafting eraser. The most abrasive "eraser" material does a complete job quicjky. --Bob Axtell At 12:34 AM 5/25/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Anyone know what (chemical) I can use to remove the writing/labeling >from DIP IC cases? I think most are plastic. > >Cheers, >-Neil. > >-- >http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email >spamBeGonelistservspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body -------------------------- -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email TakeThisOuTlistservEraseMEspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

On 25/5/03 01:34, "Picdude" <picdudeEraseME.....NARWANI.ORG> wrote: > Anyone know what (chemical) I can use to remove the writing/labeling from DIP > IC cases? I think most are plastic. BTW...don't try to do it chemically! You wouldn't want anything reacting with the plastic housing or eating it over time and possibly leading to malfunctioning silicon because of oxidization etc. :-) --marc -------------------------------------------------- Marc Nicholas Geekythings Inc. C/416.543.4896 UNIX, Database, Security and Networking Consulting -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

TTL and CMOS = 2 seconds On 25 May 2003 at 8:57, John Pearson wrote: {Quote hidden}> I would like to know how long it would take any of you, here, to identify > an unmarked chip? > > Thanks > > John > > -- > http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! > email RemoveMElistservspam_OUTKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Last week I indentified a chip by looking at the die and comparing it with pictures in the datasheets of the few relevant candidates. With a slightly stronger microscope I could probably have read the manfacturer and type number directly from the die. This was a chip-on-glass, so there was no plastic to remove, but for a plastic packaged chip a little sandpaper would be enough. Ceramic might be somewhat more difficult, but still a one-banana job. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products > {Original Message removed}

John Pearson wrote: > I would like to know how long it would take any of you, here, to > identify an unmarked chip? About that long. It can sometimes take longer in difficult cases, but less time with some luck. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservspamspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

In the 70's I used a card that was available for the apple 2+ computer that not only tested ic's but identified them. always thought that it was a good idea but have never seen anything like that for a PC. Does anyone know of one? George Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wouter van Ooijen" <RemoveMEwouterKILLspamVOTI.NL> To: <PICLISTSTOPspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [EE]: Removing chip labeling {Quote hidden}> Last week I indentified a chip by looking at the die and comparing it > with pictures in the datasheets of the few relevant candidates. With a > slightly stronger microscope I could probably have read the manfacturer > and type number directly from the die. This was a chip-on-glass, so > there was no plastic to remove, but for a plastic packaged chip a little > sandpaper would be enough. Ceramic might be somewhat more difficult, but > still a one-banana job. > > Wouter van Ooijen > > -- ------------------------------------------- > Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl > consultancy, development, PICmicro products > > > > {Original Message removed}

I have one, made by a friend. An ISA card with an external Textool. It has a DOS software that does the IC testing and identification. On 24 May 2003 at 19:20, gtyler wrote: {Quote hidden}> In the 70's I used a card that was available for the apple 2+ computer that > not only tested ic's but identified them. always thought that it was a good > idea but have never seen anything like that for a PC. Does anyone know of > one? > > George Tyler > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wouter van Ooijen" <spamBeGonewouterSTOPspamEraseMEVOTI.NL> > To: <KILLspamPICLISTspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU> > Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 6:53 PM > Subject: Re: [EE]: Removing chip labeling > > > > Last week I indentified a chip by looking at the die and comparing it > > with pictures in the datasheets of the few relevant candidates. With a > > slightly stronger microscope I could probably have read the manfacturer > > and type number directly from the die. This was a chip-on-glass, so > > there was no plastic to remove, but for a plastic packaged chip a little > > sandpaper would be enough. Ceramic might be somewhat more difficult, but > > still a one-banana job. > > > > Wouter van Ooijen > > > > -- ------------------------------------------- > > Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl > > consultancy, development, PICmicro products > > > > > > > {Original Message removed}

> In the 70's I used a card that was available for the apple 2+ > computer that > not only tested ic's but identified them. always thought that it > was a good > idea but have never seen anything like that for a PC. Does anyone know of > one? Unfortunately that sort of thing will really only work on a particular family of chips. For example, all TTL chips (74 series) have Vcc and Gnd in the same spot, so identifying which chip is which is relatively easy. If however you plonked in a 16F628 things would break down rather quickly. Generally IDing a chip isn't that hard, provided it is a relatively popular chip, a quick look at the board will tell you where power is, the presence of a crystal or some other device will give away some other important pins, and it's use in the circuit will usually narrow it down to only a few candidates. TTYL -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Electronics Now had a complete board setup for identifying logic in one of their issue a few ice ages back. I never built it but a friend did and he claimed it was about 90% accurate. Dave At 10:23 AM 25/05/03, you wrote: {Quote hidden}> I have one, made by a friend. An ISA card with an external Textool. > It has a DOS software that does the IC testing and identification. > >On 24 May 2003 at 19:20, gtyler wrote: > > > In the 70's I used a card that was available for the apple 2+ computer that > > not only tested ic's but identified them. always thought that it was a good > > idea but have never seen anything like that for a PC. Does anyone know of > > one? > > > > George Tyler > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Wouter van Ooijen" <@spam@wouter@spam@spam_OUTVOTI.NL> > > To: <spamBeGonePICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> > > Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 6:53 PM > > Subject: Re: [EE]: Removing chip labeling > > > > > > > Last week I indentified a chip by looking at the die and comparing it > > > with pictures in the datasheets of the few relevant candidates. With a > > > slightly stronger microscope I could probably have read the manfacturer > > > and type number directly from the die. This was a chip-on-glass, so > > > there was no plastic to remove, but for a plastic packaged chip a little > > > sandpaper would be enough. Ceramic might be somewhat more difficult, but > > > still a one-banana job. > > > > > > Wouter van Ooijen > > > > > > -- ------------------------------------------- > > > Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl > > > consultancy, development, PICmicro products > > > > > > > > > > {Original Message removed}

At 08:57 AM 5/25/03 -0700, John Pearson wrote: >I would like to know how long it would take any of you, here, to identify >an unmarked chip? I once reverse-engineered a parallel port dongle (software key) containing 2 chips with all markings sanded off. Took less than an hour. The original dongle still worked when I was though with it, as did it's new (backup) brother. I'm not particularly fast - I'm sure that others would have taken less time. dwayne -- Dwayne Reid <.....dwaynerspam_OUTplanet.eon.net> Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA (780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax Celebrating 19 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2003) .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .- `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address. This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email TakeThisOuTlistserv.....TakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

At 12:55 PM 5/25/2003 -0700, Dave King wrote: >Electronics Now had a complete board setup for identifying logic >in one of their issue a few ice ages back. I never built it but a friend >did and he claimed it was about 90% accurate. Find the power pins, crystal pins, and reset, and you can come pretty close on most micros. That's another reason I like the AVR2343 and it's cousins. No crystal, no need for external reset. Just power, and six pins that do stuff. -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email TakeThisOuTlistservKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> That's another reason I like the AVR2343 and it's cousins. No > crystal, no need for external reset. Just power, and six > pins that do stuff. The 12F628/675 PICs can be used just the same (16F630/676 too, even 16F628 and 16F818/819). And to make re-engineering from looking at the PCB more interesting leave the power pins unconnected and feed power via I/O ports and the protection diodes. But I would simply grind away the housing and look at the die, which probably states "Microchip 12F628 revision XX", and maybe even the URL of the datasheet? Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email .....listservRemoveMEmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

In message <000001c322fc$2e0469d0$0b00a8c0@PAARD> Wouter van Ooijen <RemoveMEwouterspamBeGoneVOTI.NL> wrote: > But I would simply grind away the housing and look at the die, which > probably states "Microchip 12F628 revision XX", and maybe even the URL > of the datasheet? 1) If you ground off the top of the housing, you're not going to be able to get the die out intact, i.e. without damaging it. 2) Most reverse-engineering teams use fuming nitric acid. Does anyone want to pull a 12C508/JW out and put it under a microscope? I'm not going to sacrifice any of mine... Alternatively if someone here has access to a chemistry lab, perhaps they could get a dead 12C508 and use some nitric acid to remove the cover plastic, then put the chip under a microscope? I'd love to see if any of the Microchip IC design team had hidden anything on the chips (see http://www.micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/ ). Later. -- Phil. spamBeGonephilpem@spam@spam_OUTdsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email TakeThisOuTlistservspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

I would like to know how long it would take any of you, here, to identify an unmarked chip? What KIND of unmarked chip? Random MSI might be difficult, but processors and microcontrollers can be very easy. N pins on the chip, Power connected to these pins, crystal connected to those pins, reset circuit over here, must be one of these (M) PICs.... BillW -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

I'll save everyone from a flood of emails by collectively responding here... Marc Nicholas scribbled: > BTW...don't try to do it chemically! You wouldn't want anything reacting > with the plastic housing or eating it over time and possibly leading to > malfunctioning silicon because of oxidization etc. :-) Various people scribbled: > < various things relating to sandpaper > Gee! What a let-down. I was expecting (hoping?) to hear of some kitchen-sourced chemical that would remove the labeling, but instead, I got the caveman solution. :-) Sandpaper (220grit, IIRC) that I tried in the past left me with a dull grey finish, but perhaps I'll try something finer this time. I'll be back... Jinx scribbled: > A complex of Mg3Al2Si3O12 in laminar form - commonly available on a > processed cellulose base and going by the name "garnet paper" Imagine the reaction I'd get if I asked a local hardware-store rep for this. They may spontaneously combust! To spare them, I think I'll have to just go with sandpaper instead. :-) Cheers, -Neil. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu>

> Gee! What a let-down. I was expecting (hoping?) to hear of some > kitchen-sourced chemical that would remove the labeling I think some labeling is actually engraved, so removing the paint cheamically would not achive anything. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList @spam@piclist-unsubscribe-requestRemoveMEEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu>

> A complex of Mg3Al2Si3O12 in laminar form - commonly available > on a processed cellulose base and going by the name "garnet paper" > Imagine the reaction I'd get if I asked a local hardware-store rep for > this. They may spontaneously combust ! Yeah, they're not always so bright. I asked at the local Placemakers Information Desk "Will I ever find true happiness ?" and they didn't know Seriously, plastics like graphite-loaded epoxy are quite inert to just about any common solvent. They have to be stable as well to meet requirements like moisture-resistance and non-corrosion of metal parts like legs and dies IC decapsulator machine using nitric acid http://www.bgintl.com/dcap.html Development is ongoing towards the production of ICs made completely of plastic and organic molecules. Anyone's guess how you'd pull those apart And some ICs are moving back under glass http://www.mpdigest.com/Articles/Sept2001/stratedge/Default.htm -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-request@spam@mitvma.mit.edu>

Most chip labeling is probably sort of 'curable' (as opposed to "drying") ink, and thus isn't easilly removed by any common solvents (still, you might want to try one of those "spot and stain remover" collections.) If I wanted to get rid of the labels for esthetic (as opposed to security) purposes, I'd be looking for inks or paints to cover the existing markings, rather than trying to remove them. BillW -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList @spam@piclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUT.....mitvma.mit.edu>

>In the 70's I used a card that was available for the apple 2+ computer >that not only tested ic's but identified them. always thought that it was >a good idea but have never seen anything like that for a PC. Does anyone >know of one? They are handheld now, and id and test the chip. Test equipment shops sell them. I think I saw one in a Mouser catalog. Peter -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu>

There are professional services for chip relabeling. They use techniques such as sand blasting and laser labeling and typically they are reasonably priced. Try http://www.primesol.com/pages/semi_elect.html or similar srvices (note the Select a Prime Solution pul down list at the bottom left side of the page). Tal > {Original Message removed}

Have anyone tried the nail-painting machine mentioned by James Newton ages ago? I remembered rushing to a TV-media shop after his suggestion, but could not find a set here. Cheers, Ling SM > > Most chip labeling is probably sort of 'curable' (as opposed > > to "drying") ink, and thus isn't easilly removed by any > > common solvents (still, you might want to try one of those > > "spot and stain remover" collections.) If I wanted to get rid > > of the labels for esthetic (as opposed to security) purposes, > > I'd be looking for inks or paints to cover the existing > > markings, rather than trying to remove them. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu>

>I would like to know how long it would take any of >you, here, to identify an unmarked chip? Well it took me about half a minute to identify a 6802 that had an HP special part number on the top. The clue was it had 6802 on the bottom :)) I think some chips from that era had the generic part number stamped on the bottom as they were encapsulated, and then after full test had the complete marketing part number printed on the top. Often works for general logic chips as well. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

>Most chip labeling is probably sort of 'curable' (as opposed to "drying") >ink, and thus isn't easilly removed by any common solvents (still, you Most chip labeling is laser etched (at least on pics and many other modern chips). I think that they simply blow pits in the epoxy using a CO2 laser. If you look with a microscope you can see the individual pits. I believe it is laser at least. The other way to do this would be sandblasting through a stencil. Not so likely. Peter -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Most companies laser-mark these days - I was takling to a guy from Texas Instruments recently and he commented that they (and preumably most others) couldn't afford to do it any other way. On Wed, 28 May 2003 00:03:19 +0300, you wrote: {Quote hidden}>>Most chip labeling is probably sort of 'curable' (as opposed to "drying") >>ink, and thus isn't easilly removed by any common solvents (still, you > >Most chip labeling is laser etched (at least on pics and many other modern >chips). I think that they simply blow pits in the epoxy using a CO2 laser. >If you look with a microscope you can see the individual pits. I believe >it is laser at least. The other way to do this would be sandblasting >through a stencil. Not so likely. > >Peter -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.