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'[EE]: Protected High Side Driver'
2000\08\12@084432 by David Duffy

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Thought someone on the list may have come across what I'm after.
I'm looking for some high-side driver IC's with the following attributes;
  30V Operation.
  1A Current source.
  Fault protected in case of shorted loads.
  4/8/16 Drivers per package.
  Serial (shift register) input would be great.
  SIL package for easy heatsinking.
This may be asking a lot be you just never know!
BTW, I will be driving them with a PIC.  :-)
Regards...
___________________________________________
David Duffy        Audio Visual Devices P/L
U8, 9-11 Trade St, Cleveland 4163 Australia
Ph: +61 7 38210362   Fax: +61 7 38210281
New Web: http://www.audiovisualdevices.com.au
New email: spam_OUTavdTakeThisOuTspamaudiovisualdevices.com.au
___________________________________________

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2000\08\12@100840 by Fritz Eberle

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I would like to find something like that also.  Low-side drivers like that
exist, though.

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[.....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of David Duffy
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 8:50 AM
To: PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [EE]: Protected High Side Driver


Thought someone on the list may have come across what I'm after.
I'm looking for some high-side driver IC's with the following attributes;
  30V Operation.
  1A Current source.
  Fault protected in case of shorted loads.
  4/8/16 Drivers per package.
  Serial (shift register) input would be great.
  SIL package for easy heatsinking.
This may be asking a lot be you just never know!
BTW, I will be driving them with a PIC.  :-)
Regards...
___________________________________________
David Duffy        Audio Visual Devices P/L
U8, 9-11 Trade St, Cleveland 4163 Australia
Ph: +61 7 38210362   Fax: +61 7 38210281
New Web: http://www.audiovisualdevices.com.au
New email: .....avdKILLspamspam.....audiovisualdevices.com.au
___________________________________________

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2000\08\12@115208 by V sml

picon face
My favorites are TI for this.  See
http://www.ti.com/sc/docs/products/msp/control/index.htm

Look under Power + Control ; Power + Logic ; Power + Arrays .

For high-side switch, my best bet is you could only get the pre-FET
type leaving you to tailor the Vgs voltage.

Cheers, Ling SM

>Thought someone on the list may have come across what I'm after.
I'm looking for some high-side driver IC's with the following
attributes;
  30V Operation.
  1A Current source.
  Fault protected in case of shorted loads.
  4/8/16 Drivers per package.
  Serial (shift register) input would be great.
  SIL package for easy heatsinking.

David Duffy        Audio Visual Devices P/L

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2000\08\12@143405 by Chris Carr

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Thats funny I'm looking for Protected High Side Drivers as well except they
need to handle a 5 Amp continuous current with an inductive load. I've tried
Motorola, International Rectifier, ST, Infineon (Siemens), Intersil,
Philips. All of them have devices that will do the job - at least that is
what you are lead to believe as you peruse the data sheets.

Pity the data sheets have not been translated into Silicon. None of them
actually have devices available. The deaded words "On Allocation" crop up
all the time. Quoted lead times of 6 to 12 months are common, then they
cannot be guaranteed and you must be prepared to take a minimum quantity of
1000 or 10000 pieces, prototyping quantities are not available and I had one
manufacturer tell me they only supplied car manufacturers!

I even tried another tack, look up devices in a distributors catalogue to
ascertain what is available, get the data sheets and hope that one of the
devices comes close, then order some. Guess what - Out of Stock, When are
they getting more - Don't know, in fact we have never had any!

The nearest I have come for my application is to use a driver from Micrel
(minimum 100 pieces delivery 12 weeks) and a seperate N Channel Power FET.

I'm not paranoid, they are really out to get me!

Yours Frustratedly

Chris Carr


{Original Message removed}

2000\08\12@200010 by Fritz Eberle

picon face
Maybe this one, but it's only 0.5A:
http://www.micrel.com/_PDF/mic5891.pdf



-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of David Duffy
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 8:50 AM
To: PICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [EE]: Protected High Side Driver


Thought someone on the list may have come across what I'm after.
I'm looking for some high-side driver IC's with the following attributes;
  30V Operation.
  1A Current source.
  Fault protected in case of shorted loads.
  4/8/16 Drivers per package.
  Serial (shift register) input would be great.
  SIL package for easy heatsinking.
This may be asking a lot be you just never know!
BTW, I will be driving them with a PIC.  :-)
Regards...
___________________________________________
David Duffy        Audio Visual Devices P/L
U8, 9-11 Trade St, Cleveland 4163 Australia
Ph: +61 7 38210362   Fax: +61 7 38210281
New Web: http://www.audiovisualdevices.com.au
New email: @spam@avdKILLspamspamaudiovisualdevices.com.au
___________________________________________

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2000\08\12@203213 by Robert Francisco

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I remember getting a sample of a high side and a low side driver from
Burr-brown, I think they are 2+A, 60V.

http://www.burr-brown.com    drv10x is the part number

hope this helps-robertf
{Original Message removed}

2000\08\12@203626 by Robert Francisco

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Check out allegromicro.com


----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Carr <KILLspamnyedKILLspamspamBTINTERNET.COM>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [EE]: Protected High Side Driver


> Thats funny I'm looking for Protected High Side Drivers as well except
they
> need to handle a 5 Amp continuous current with an inductive load. I've
tried
> Motorola, International Rectifier, ST, Infineon (Siemens), Intersil,
> Philips. All of them have devices that will do the job - at least that is
> what you are lead to believe as you peruse the data sheets.
>
> Pity the data sheets have not been translated into Silicon. None of them
> actually have devices available. The deaded words "On Allocation" crop up
> all the time. Quoted lead times of 6 to 12 months are common, then they
> cannot be guaranteed and you must be prepared to take a minimum quantity
of
> 1000 or 10000 pieces, prototyping quantities are not available and I had
one
{Quote hidden}

attributes;
{Quote hidden}

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2000\08\13@055123 by Chris Carr

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Thank you for the suggestion. I had a look. Their products may be what the
other gentleman is seeking but they don't have anything suitable for my
application. The search continues......

{Original Message removed}

2000\08\13@152631 by Oliver Broad

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I've had no problem getting the VN02N (ST) part through Farnell. I presume
you'd need the VN05N, though maybe the package type is unsuitable
(pentawatt/TO220-5).

Oliver.
{Original Message removed}

2000\08\13@184948 by David Duffy

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Thanks to the various people who replied to my question. The TI ones look
promising - will have to see if actually available easily & at what price/MOQ.
This project is in the feasibility stage at present. I need to control
about 100
common-earthed loads via a PIC. (maybe only 1 at a time though)
Regards...

Ling SM wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\08\14@055148 by mike

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On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:50:57 +1000, you wrote:

>Thanks to the various people who replied to my question. The TI ones look
>promising - will have to see if actually available easily & at what price/MOQ.
>This project is in the feasibility stage at present. I need to control
>about 100
>common-earthed loads via a PIC. (maybe only 1 at a time though)
>Regards...
In which case you want the driver to be very cheap, i.e. a transistor
or mosfet,  and do the protection 'once' on the supply to the
switches.
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2000\08\14@183719 by David Duffy

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Mike wrote:

> >Thanks to the various people who replied to my question. The TI ones look
> >promising - will have to see if actually available easily & at what
> price/MOQ.
> >This project is in the feasibility stage at present. I need to control
> >about 100
> >common-earthed loads via a PIC. (maybe only 1 at a time though)
>
>In which case you want the driver to be very cheap, i.e. a transistor
>or mosfet,  and do the protection 'once' on the supply to the
>switches.

Sounds simple(ish) & obvious!  Hmmm, why didn't I think of it?  :-)
I may be able to get away with a power resistor in series with the
supply line (between battery & drivers) to limit the current. A lamp
would work even better but can't afford an O/C filament to stop the
unit from working. The battery supply is 24Vdc and the unit will be
for firing fireworks "electric matches" or igniters by remote control.
Regards...

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2000\08\15@020412 by Dwayne Reid

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At 08:33 AM 8/15/00 +1000, David Duffy wrote:

>Sounds simple(ish) & obvious!  Hmmm, why didn't I think of it?  :-)
>I may be able to get away with a power resistor in series with the
>supply line (between battery & drivers) to limit the current. A lamp
>would work even better but can't afford an O/C filament to stop the
>unit from working. The battery supply is 24Vdc and the unit will be
>for firing fireworks "electric matches" or igniters by remote control.

The fireworks / pyro control systems that my company manufactures does
things a little differently: the channel 'arm' relay connects one side of
the igniter to the high side of the battery.  A current sense FET (IRCZ24)
is turned on when the channel is to be fired.  The current limit is set to
about 6 amps or so.

Both sides of the ignitor are shunted by the normally closed contacts of
the arm relay while the channel is not armed.  In addition, both sides of
the ignitor are floated above ground by a few volts and monitored to look
for ground shorts or leakage.  Its kind of a bridge circuit - if something
upsets the balance, that channel is locked out and a fault indication is
sent back to master control.

Each firing channel uses 3 sections of LM2901 quad comparitor (2 sections
for the bridge and 1 section for continuity detector), 1 section of LM2904
dual op-amp (FET driver / current limit), 1 section of NEC EPE series dual
relay (great little dual 30 Amp SPDT relay), 1 IRCZ24 FET, and about 1/4 of
a EPM7032SLC-44 epld from altera.  The epld does all the timing and serial
communications as well as the fault / arm / fire logic required.

In a nutshell, that is how I did our system.

Look over your requirements carefully - there may be no need to use a high
side driver.  It is dead simple to build a current limited low side driver
using a sense FET and a single section of op-amp.  As a bonus, the op-amp
takes care of level translation from your logic supply to the drive
required for the FET.  The caveat is that you must control what happens
with the high side supply.  My system monitors for faults before it allows
the ignitor to be connected to the high side, but this requires an arm
relay for each channel.  This is a tradeoff that I was happy to accept.

dwayne



Dwayne Reid   <EraseMEdwaynerspamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

Celebrating 16 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2000)

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2000\08\15@022343 by David Duffy

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Dwayne Reid wrote:
{Quote hidden}

The reason I was going for a high side driver was that this unit is to replace
a manual switch firing unit that uses a common ground system on the
firing rails (right name for them?). Each rail has 20 outputs on it with a D25
connector. I suppose I could use the existing rails but the +/- markings on
each channel would be back to front . (Actually red/black spring terminals)
Getting 100 channels in a small space is going to be difficult & expensive.
Regards...

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2000\08\15@031334 by Dwayne Reid

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At 04:23 PM 8/15/00 +1000, David Duffy wrote:

>The reason I was going for a high side driver was that this unit is to replace
>a manual switch firing unit that uses a common ground system on the
>firing rails (right name for them?). Each rail has 20 outputs on it with a D25
>connector. I suppose I could use the existing rails but the +/- markings on
>each channel would be back to front . (Actually red/black spring terminals)
>Getting 100 channels in a small space is going to be difficult & expensive.

Makes perfect sense, then.  You have a matrix system and you really don't
want to have to go into the firing slats and turn all those steering diodes
around.

What exactly is your goal?  I'm assuming that your existing system fired
only one channel at a time?  How many channels at a time do you want to
fire?  How are they being fired?  Is it a simple sequencer or do you need
random access?

Blue Smoke out of Calgary does something similar - they have 16 channels on
each of 16 common lines for a total of 256 channels.  They can fire any or
all of the 16 channels associated with each common line but can't fire
channels that span multiple commons in the same instant.  Not much of a
problem for fireworks shows.

Just how many high side drivers do you need?  20?  How long is your firing
pulse?  You might consider doing it the 'brute force' method - TIP32
transistors with small emitter resistors and 2n4403 transistors doing the
classic 2 transistor current limit.  If you limit your fire pulse duration,
you don't need to worry about heatsinking the transistors.

You will want to have monitoring to detect a shorted transistor.  This is
simply having pull down resistors at the rail outputs and ensuring that
there is no voltage present when the high side driver is supposed to be
off.  Disable the ground (common) lines if there is a fault.

You really should use relays for the ground switching.  This gives you the
mechanical air gap that a lot regulations require and if you do wind up
firing multiple channels simultaneously, they can handle the required
current.  I'm quite partial to the T90 series from P&B as well as the EPE
series from NEC.  The EPE relay is really nice - 2 fully independent SPDT
30 Amp relays in a package about the same size as the T90.  I have welded
the contacts on those, however, when a screwdriver fell onto the PCB and
shorted out the current limit stages.  Again, fault detection is a good
idea.  In my units, a fault at the relay disables the current limit drivers
and a fault in the current limit drivers disables the relays.

Your choice of 24V is good.  That is the only regret I have with our system
- the client insisted that 12V was good enough when we were commissioned to
design the system some 10 years ago.  Now they use it with 400 foot long
drop lines (outdoor stadiums) and the low voltage limits the number of
devices they can fire on each cue.  A future re-design will jump that to
24V.  I had considered doing a 300V capacitor discharge version at one time
but never did get around to it.

Do let us know how you make out.  Best of luck!

dwayne



Dwayne Reid   <RemoveMEdwaynerEraseMEspamEraseMEplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

Celebrating 16 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2000)

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2000\08\15@032616 by Chris Carr

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How about using a High Level Driver in the common +ve supply to limit the
current, detect fault conditions etc. Then use P channel Power Fets to
switch the individual outputs on and off.

I would also question the use of D25 connectors in this application. I
cannot remember seeing any current rating for these connectors, but then I
have only used them for carrying data signals. Also they have a limited
lifespan in terms of the number of matings. The cheap ones are particularly
bad in this respect.

Regards

David Duffy wrote:
{Quote hidden}

(IRCZ24)
> >is turned on when the channel is to be fired.  The current limit is set
to
> >about 6 amps or so.
> >
> >Both sides of the ignitor are shunted by the normally closed contacts of
> >the arm relay while the channel is not armed.  In addition, both sides of
> >the ignitor are floated above ground by a few volts and monitored to look
> >for ground shorts or leakage.  Its kind of a bridge circuit - if
something
> >upsets the balance, that channel is locked out and a fault indication is
> >sent back to master control.
> >
> >Each firing channel uses 3 sections of LM2901 quad comparitor (2 sections
> >for the bridge and 1 section for continuity detector), 1 section of
LM2904
> >dual op-amp (FET driver / current limit), 1 section of NEC EPE series
dual
> >relay (great little dual 30 Amp SPDT relay), 1 IRCZ24 FET, and about 1/4
of
> >a EPM7032SLC-44 epld from altera.  The epld does all the timing and
serial
> >communications as well as the fault / arm / fire logic required.
> >
> >In a nutshell, that is how I did our system.
> >
> >Look over your requirements carefully - there may be no need to use a
high
> >side driver.  It is dead simple to build a current limited low side
driver
> >using a sense FET and a single section of op-amp.  As a bonus, the op-amp
> >takes care of level translation from your logic supply to the drive
> >required for the FET.  The caveat is that you must control what happens
> >with the high side supply.  My system monitors for faults before it
allows
> >the ignitor to be connected to the high side, but this requires an arm
> >relay for each channel.  This is a tradeoff that I was happy to accept.
>
> The reason I was going for a high side driver was that this unit is to
replace
> a manual switch firing unit that uses a common ground system on the
> firing rails (right name for them?). Each rail has 20 outputs on it with a
D25
> connector. I suppose I could use the existing rails but the +/- markings
on
> each channel would be back to front . (Actually red/black spring
terminals)
> Getting 100 channels in a small space is going to be difficult &
expensive.
> Regards...
>
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2000\08\15@035415 by David Duffy

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>David Duffy wrote:
>
>>The reason I was going for a high side driver was that this unit is to
>>replace
>>a manual switch firing unit that uses a common ground system on the
>>firing rails (right name for them?). Each rail has 20 outputs on it with
>>a D25
>>connector. I suppose I could use the existing rails but the +/- markings on
>>each channel would be back to front . (Actually red/black spring terminals)
>>Getting 100 channels in a small space is going to be difficult & expensive.
dwayne wrote:
>Makes perfect sense, then.  You have a matrix system and you really don't
>want to have to go into the firing slats and turn all those steering diodes
>around.

Yes, of course, I hadn't thought of the diodes in the rail being wrong way
- yet...

>What exactly is your goal?  I'm assuming that your existing system fired
>only one channel at a time?  How many channels at a time do you want to
>fire?  How are they being fired?  Is it a simple sequencer or do you need
>random access?

The system has 2 groups of 100 outputs. ie. 2-way common-switch and 100
probe firing points - funny how pyro's still like bed-of-nails systems. :-)
The customer asked for a sequencer to start with but maybe with a view to
having it PC controlled at a later stage.

{Quote hidden}

These are all good points to know.

>Your choice of 24V is good.  That is the only regret I have with our system
>- the client insisted that 12V was good enough when we were commissioned to
>design the system some 10 years ago.  Now they use it with 400 foot long
>drop lines (outdoor stadiums) and the low voltage limits the number of
>devices they can fire on each cue.  A future re-design will jump that to
>24V.  I had considered doing a 300V capacitor discharge version at one time
>but never did get around to it.

The same customer has a 12V unit and he complains that it doesn't work well
anymore. He's just gotten used to the 24V unit firing a few in igniters in
series
with no problem. The 12V one can't fire more than a couple in series I think.
Is this a normal thing to do? (string a few igniters in series off 1 channel)
Regards...

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2000\08\15@035627 by David Duffy

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Chris Carr wrote:
>How about using a High Level Driver in the common +ve supply to limit the
>current, detect fault conditions etc. Then use P channel Power Fets to
>switch the individual outputs on and off.

Sounds like it's worth investigating.

>I would also question the use of D25 connectors in this application. I
>cannot remember seeing any current rating for these connectors, but then I
>have only used them for carrying data signals. Also they have a limited
>lifespan in terms of the number of matings. The cheap ones are particularly
>bad in this respect.

It is a trade-off between cost & durability I guess. We made some more
rails for
his existing system and at least used metal D25 back shells to last a bit
longer!
What do other companies use for this type of application?
Regards...

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2000\08\15@081907 by mike

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On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:33:49 +1000, you wrote:

>Mike wrote:
>
>> >Thanks to the various people who replied to my question. The TI ones look
>> >promising - will have to see if actually available easily & at what
>> price/MOQ.
>> >This project is in the feasibility stage at present. I need to control
>> >about 100
>> >common-earthed loads via a PIC. (maybe only 1 at a time though)
>>
>>In which case you want the driver to be very cheap, i.e. a transistor
>>or mosfet,  and do the protection 'once' on the supply to the
>>switches.
>
>Sounds simple(ish) & obvious!  Hmmm, why didn't I think of it?  :-)
>I may be able to get away with a power resistor in series with the
>supply line (between battery & drivers) to limit the current. A lamp
>would work even better but can't afford an O/C filament to stop the
>unit from working. The battery supply is 24Vdc and the unit will be
>for firing fireworks "electric matches" or igniters by remote control.
>Regards...
Check out polyswitch fuses from Bourns and Raychem .
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