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'[EE]: Project testing'
2003\03\05@102518 by Jochen Feldhaar

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face
Jai Dhar wrote:

> Hi all,

<snip>

> testing the +5V rail for now. So with 10 ohms, I figured connected the
> resistor connected right from +Vcc to GND would draw (V/R: 5V/10ohms) 0.5A.
> Well within the capabilities of the regulator, rectifier and transformer.
> While watching the level on the rail with my DMM, I turned it on, and
> basically saw it hit 1V and then keep dropping. Obviously not good. I touched
> the regulator (the MAX787) and pretty much burnt my fingers on it. After
> letting it cool down and removing the resistor, I discovered that I fried my
> regulator. I switched otu the MAX787 for another one, and the same thing
<unsnip>


I have looked at the schematic, and I do not see a electrolytical
capacitor of some size after the rectifier bridge. Is this just omitted
in the diagram or is the diagram an accurate sketch of the breadboard?

What frequency does the MAX787 use. An inductor of 50 mH seems to me to
be a bit high......

Just my 0.02 cents (Euro!)

Jochen Feldhaar

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2003\03\05@103238 by Jai Dhar

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I am using the schematics both from National's datasheet and Maxim's - in
which I have included the appropriate capacitors before the regulators. The
50mH inductor is also what maxim recommends. I have copied links to the
datasheets so you can see for yourself:
For the MAX787:
http://pdfserv.maxim-ic.com/arpdf/MAX787-MAX789.pdf (page 1)
For the LM350:
http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM150.pdf (page 7)

Thanks,

Jai

Quoting Jochen Feldhaar <spam_OUTj.feldhaarTakeThisOuTspamTELEJET.DE>:

{Quote hidden}

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2003\03\05@103828 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> I only had
> 10 ohm 10 W resistors on hand, so I thought I would just try this for
> starters. Keep in mind I am only testing the +5V rail for now. So with
> 10 ohms, I figured connected the resistor connected right from +Vcc to
> GND would draw (V/R: 5V/10ohms) 0.5A. Well within the capabilities of
> the regulator, rectifier and transformer. While watching the level on
> the rail with my DMM, I turned it on, and basically saw it hit 1V and
> then keep dropping. Obviously not good. I touched the regulator (the
> MAX787) and pretty much burnt my fingers on it. After letting it cool
> down and removing the resistor, I discovered that I fried my regulator.
> I switched otu the MAX787 for another one, and the same thing happened
> (with the resistor in). So I can't figure out what's going on (and I
> only have one more MAX787 left, heh).

Something is obviously wrong under load, but you say it maintains the
correct voltage with no load.  Work up to higher current slowly.  You
should be able to catch the problem before something gets fried.

Are you sure the resistor is really 10ohm, not 1ohm?  That could explain a
few things.  On the other hand, unless this is a high volume product with
a well known captive load, the power supply should be able to protect
itself from a load trying to draw more than rated current.

> Also on a side note, my circuit is current on a solderless breadboard.
> Are these things suitable for handling currents up to 1.5A?

No.

> Could this be the problem?

Probably not.


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2003\03\05@103830 by hael Rigby-Jones

picon face
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jai Dhar [SMTP:.....jdharKILLspamspam@spam@ENGMAIL.UWATERLOO.CA]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 2:24 PM
> To:   PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject:      [EE]: Project testing
>
>
> Also on a side note, my circuit is current on a solderless breadboard. Are
> these things suitable for handling currents up to 1.5A? Could this be the
> problem? I have tried looking on google and Epanorama for testing
> procedures
> used in the field, but haven't found anything useful. I really appreciate
> all
> your time and help,
>
>
A solderless breadbord is pretty much the worst thing you could use to build
a switch mode supply.  You really need big, low impedance grounds and
supplies to make a switcher work properly, and the solderless breadboards
just don't provide this.  To get good results first time take a look at the
manufacturers eval board if they make one.  This shows you how to lay out
the grounding for best performance.

BTW, if you ever need to post a line drawing such as a schematic, try to ise
GIF or simmilar lossless encoding,  Jpeg compression really makes a mess of
crisp edges.

Regards

Mike




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2003\03\05@104034 by Dave Dilatush

picon face
Jai wrote...

[details snipped]

>...I figured connected the
>resistor connected right from +Vcc to GND would draw (V/R: 5V/10ohms) 0.5A.

That's correct: a 10 ohm resistor connected across 5 volts will
draw 1/2 ampere.

[tragic tale of fried regulator chip snipped]

>...So I can't figure out what's going on (and I
>only have one more MAX787 left, heh). Is this not a good way to draw current
>from the circuit?

It's a perfectly valid way to test your supply.

>Also on a side note, my circuit is current on a solderless breadboard. Are
>these things suitable for handling currents up to 1.5A? Could this be the
>problem?

Solderless breadboards are [allegedly] good for some things, but
they sure aren't any good for building high-current switching
regulator circuits: the connections have way too much contact
resistance, meaning there will be large, unintended voltage drops
everywhere along the current path.  I would be extremely
surprised if the circuit worked at all, and very unsurprising if
it malfunctioned destructively.  This could indeed be the
problem.

The data sheet for the MAX787 shows a typical application
circuit, and this circuit uses a 50 uH (50 microhenry) inductor.
Yet your schematic shows a 50 mH (50 MILLIhenry) inductor.  What
gives?  You should be strictly following the inductor selection
guidelines given by the chip manufacturer.  If you really are
using a 50 mH inductor, this absolutely, positively will not
work.

Dave D.

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2003\03\05@104906 by Tal

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Dave is right
in my PSU I use 47uH (farnell) inductor.
Tal

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list [EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On
Behalf Of Dave Dilatush
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:40 PM
To: PICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [EE]: Project testing


Jai wrote...

[details snipped]

>...I figured connected the
>resistor connected right from +Vcc to GND would draw (V/R: 5V/10ohms) 0.5A.

That's correct: a 10 ohm resistor connected across 5 volts will
draw 1/2 ampere.

[tragic tale of fried regulator chip snipped]

>...So I can't figure out what's going on (and I
>only have one more MAX787 left, heh). Is this not a good way to draw
current
>from the circuit?

It's a perfectly valid way to test your supply.

>Also on a side note, my circuit is current on a solderless breadboard. Are
>these things suitable for handling currents up to 1.5A? Could this be the
>problem?

Solderless breadboards are [allegedly] good for some things, but
they sure aren't any good for building high-current switching
regulator circuits: the connections have way too much contact
resistance, meaning there will be large, unintended voltage drops
everywhere along the current path.  I would be extremely
surprised if the circuit worked at all, and very unsurprising if
it malfunctioned destructively.  This could indeed be the
problem.

The data sheet for the MAX787 shows a typical application
circuit, and this circuit uses a 50 uH (50 microhenry) inductor.
Yet your schematic shows a 50 mH (50 MILLIhenry) inductor.  What
gives?  You should be strictly following the inductor selection
guidelines given by the chip manufacturer.  If you really are
using a 50 mH inductor, this absolutely, positively will not
work.

Dave D.

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2003\03\05@105112 by Jai Dhar

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Quoting Olin Lathrop <@spam@olin_piclistKILLspamspamEMBEDINC.COM>:

> > I only had
> > 10 ohm 10 W resistors on hand, so I thought I would just try this for
> > starters. Keep in mind I am only testing the +5V rail for now. So with
> > 10 ohms, I figured connected the resistor connected right from +Vcc to
> > GND would draw (V/R: 5V/10ohms) 0.5A. Well within the capabilities of
> > the regulator, rectifier and transformer. While watching the level on
> > the rail with my DMM, I turned it on, and basically saw it hit 1V and
> > then keep dropping. Obviously not good. I touched the regulator (the
> > MAX787) and pretty much burnt my fingers on it. After letting it cool
> > down and removing the resistor, I discovered that I fried my regulator.
> > I switched otu the MAX787 for another one, and the same thing happened
> > (with the resistor in). So I can't figure out what's going on (and I
> > only have one more MAX787 left, heh).
>
> Something is obviously wrong under load, but you say it maintains the
> correct voltage with no load.  Work up to higher current slowly.  You
> should be able to catch the problem before something gets fried.
>

Yup, definitely maintains the proper voltage with no or very little load. I
don't see how 500mA is a heavy load, but anyway.... as long as the resistor is
the correct way to go, then I will try what you said and work up little by
little.

{Quote hidden}

As for the comment made about breadboards being the worst way to go... keep in
mind I'm just testing it now, I don't plan on boxing this up and using it with
a breadboard :-) I will be hopefully either a) creating my own PCB if I can
get a hold of an etchant tank, or if not, b) using veroboard. The reason I
haven't soldered this up is because I am seeing how much the regulators heat
up under full load (or trying to).. if they heat up quite a bit, then I will
stick a fan in there. Otherwise, I don't need one...
{Quote hidden}

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2003\03\05@105703 by Jai Dhar

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My mistake (as I said, I'm new to schematics and am prone to make some
mistakes along the way :-) I am in fact using a 50uH inductor... otherwise as
you said, it absolutely wouldn't work, heh.

Quoting Tal <KILLspamkooterKILLspamspam012.NET.IL>:

> Dave is right
> in my PSU I use 47uH (farnell) inductor.
> Tal
>
> {Original Message removed}

2003\03\05@105850 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>As for the comment made about breadboards being the worst way to
>go... keep in mind I'm just testing it now, I don't plan on boxing
>this up and using it with a breadboard :-)

I suspect the problem is the breadboard. This is allowing all sorts of
horrible lead lengths at places they should not be, which is allowing the
switchmode chip to oscillate in all sorts of uncontrolled ways, and this is
what has destroyed your chips.

The only way you are going to sort this is to go straight to a PCB which has
been laid out with current paths and suitable sized tracks straight off.
Then you will get something that will approach the stability you require.

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2003\03\05@111551 by Dave Dilatush

picon face
Jai wrote...

>As for the comment made about breadboards being the worst way to go... keep in
>mind I'm just testing it now, I don't plan on boxing this up and using it with
>a breadboard :-)

It doesn't matter WHY you're using a solderless breadboard now;
the problem is that your circuit is very unlikely to work AT ALL
if you attempt to build it that way.

Regarding this 50 uH inductor you're using: is it the right kind
of inductor, one meant for switching regulator application?  Not
all inductors are the same, you know.  You need one which is
rated to handle the peak current in-circuit without saturating.

One other comment: the 220 uF capacitor in your circuit,
following the rectifier- are you sure it's big enough?  I know
that's the value Maxim shows on their schematic for the MAX787,
but that's not the only thing you should consider.  You need to
use a capacitor large enough that the instantaneous capacitor
voltage will not droop too low in between peaks of the mains AC
input.  The LM350 requires a certain minimum input voltage to
keep its output regulated, and you need to ensure you maintain
that minimum under full load conditions.  My subjective judgement
(i.e., educated guess) is that you need a capacitor at least ten
times as large as the one you're using.

Dave D.

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2003\03\05@114328 by Jai Dhar

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Quoting "Alan B. Pearce" <RemoveMEA.B.PearceTakeThisOuTspamRL.AC.UK>:

> >As for the comment made about breadboards being the worst way to
> >go... keep in mind I'm just testing it now, I don't plan on boxing
> >this up and using it with a breadboard :-)
>
> I suspect the problem is the breadboard. This is allowing all sorts of
> horrible lead lengths at places they should not be, which is allowing the
> switchmode chip to oscillate in all sorts of uncontrolled ways, and this is
> what has destroyed your chips.
>
> The only way you are going to sort this is to go straight to a PCB which has
> been laid out with current paths and suitable sized tracks straight off.
> Then you will get something that will approach the stability you require.
>

Does veroboard have tracks suitable for this application? Seems to be my only
option now, unless I reduce the capabilities of my supply.

As to the type of inductor that I'm using, what is the 'correct' type? I
wasn't aware that a special type of inductor was required for this
application, so I would appreciate knowing what type of inductor I ned to
obtain.

Regarding Jochen mentioning that I need a bigger capacitor after the
rectifier... do I really need something as big as 4700? The biggest cap I have
seen used after a rectifier is a 2200 (at least looking at the example
schematics on psu's). And yes, I did use heatsinks :-)

While all these are great suggestions in improving my design, are any of these
explanations as to why my regulator fried when I simply put in an appropriate
resistor? It seems like all these suggestions could *improve* my design, but
from what I understand, none of them seem to address why drawing 500mA would
fry my regulator. I must be missing something.

Nevertheless, thank you for all of your input thus far,

Jai
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2003\03\05@122129 by John Dammeyer

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Hi Jai,

Switching supplies can be incredibly simple with the new devices that
are out there and they can easily deliver the expected current with the
suggested circuit from the Maxim data sheet.

However,  there are some fundamental rules that need to be followed.
You're dealing with a high frequency, high power design and so circuit
layout becomes an important issue.  That means if you are having
problems, the breadboard or vero board would be the first suspicious
element to remove.

***  So a proper layout is very important to how well this type of
circuit will function.  ***

I haven't checked the recommended inductor on the data sheet but usually
a number of inductor manufacturers and their part numbers are listed.
If sounds like, from your response on the inductor issue that you aren't
clear on saturation current of an inductor.  I suspect you don't have a
scope to look at waveforms either.

So a bit of theory.  When you apply a voltage across an inductor and
measure the voltage at that instant in time, you will measure the
applied voltage.  If at that same instant in time you measure the
current it will be 0.  After an infinite amount of time the voltage will
be zero and the current will be infinite.  That's the theoretical
inductor.

In reality, the inductor has a certain amount of resistance and the
power supply has limitations on current so one of two things will
happen: the current increases to a point where the I^2R of the inductor
wire is exceeded and it heats up and goes open circuit;  the power
supply goes into current limit and holds the current at Xi and the
voltage drops to the I*R value across the inductor.

So far pretty simple.

What happens in-between is what is interesting.  Simply put, if you were
to watch the current flow on a scope you'd see an exponential increase
in current but when the magnetic field created by this current saturates
the core,  there will be a dramatic almost avalanche like increase in
current without any subsequent increase in energy storage.  The coil
heats up and could toast the driver transistor.

So if you are using a 47uH inductor that saturates at 20ma then trying
to run 500ma through the inductor will probably toast the regulator
because the current will increase way beyond the specifications of the
device before it has a chance to shut down the current; unless the
inductor burns out first.

When specifying an inductor,  make sure that the current rating of the
inductor is at least the value of the regulation device.  For example:
The Talema inductors listed as being suitable for National Semi Simple
Switchers in the DigiKey catalog has and inductor 54uH at 1A and another
one 53 uH at 3A.  The amperage rating has far more to do with core
saturation than wire size and heating since the 1A coil has a DCR of
0.20 Ohms while the 3A device has a DCR of 0.13 Ohms.

Hope that helps.

John Dammeyer


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> {Original Message removed}

2003\03\05@130947 by Jai Dhar

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Thank you John, that was exactly what I was looking for... a reasonable
explanation as to why my regulator would blow out. I knew all the theoretical
characteristics of inductors, but unfortunately have not been exposed to the
practical side yet. Veroboard will have to do since I don't have access to
board making accessories, however, I will definitely replace that inductor
with one capable of handling an appropriate amount of current. This should
hopefully help.

Thank you all,

Jai

Quoting John Dammeyer <spamBeGonejohndspamBeGonespamAUTOARTISANS.COM>:

{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

2003\03\05@133232 by John Dammeyer

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face
You're welcome.  I watched this phenomena when I designed the inductor
for a capacitive Discharge Ignition used in Honda Engine conversions for
Homebuilt Aircraft.  It was pretty easy to create a design that had 85mJ
of energy and 350V stored into a capacitor.

What was more difficult was getting specifications on inductor core
saturation.  I started with small inductor cores that became larger and
larger until finally I ended up using two large toroids stacked with a
proper number of turns.  I then was able to run 10A into this inductor
before it started saturating.  That energy,  when the current was shut
off, was dumped into the capacitor and then when the time was right,
the 350V was applied through a triac into the ignition coil.  One
awesome spark with a battery voltage of 8 volts during cranking at -40C.

Regards,

John Dammeyer

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http://www.autoartisans.com/products
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Ph. 1 250 544 4950


> {Original Message removed}

2003\03\05@202212 by Jai Dhar
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Just as a sort of update, I tried it with 20 ohms resistance... hoping to draw
5/20 or 250mA. I couldn't even draw this much! I watched the voltage across
the rail and dropped right to 2V, and then I shut it off immediately
(considering what happened to my last 2). Could this really be the inductor,
even with this little amount of current? What are typical inductors rated at
(sorta like normal resistors are usual 1/4 watt)... it has no markings on it.
It's pretty small, probably .5cm in diameter.

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2003\03\05@212322 by Dave Dilatush

picon face
Jai wrote...

>Just as a sort of update, I tried it with 20 ohms resistance... hoping to draw
>5/20 or 250mA. I couldn't even draw this much! I watched the voltage across
>the rail and dropped right to 2V, and then I shut it off immediately
>(considering what happened to my last 2). Could this really be the inductor,
>even with this little amount of current? What are typical inductors rated at
>(sorta like normal resistors are usual 1/4 watt)... it has no markings on it.
>It's pretty small, probably .5cm in diameter.

Don't confuse the load current with the inductor current; they're
not the same thing.  Even though your 20 ohm resistor is drawing
only 250 mA (at 5 volts), the instantaneous current through the
inductor is likely several times this value.

Looking at the MAX787 data sheet, I don't see any information on
inductor requirements- pretty disappointing, as Linear Technology
and National Semiconductor both normally include detailed
inductor information in their chip data sheets.  Why Maxim didn't
do this for the MAX787, I can't figure.

You need to find an inductor which will handle the peak current
without saturating, since as soon as the inductor saturates it's
current will rapidly shoot up, causing your circuit to
malfunction and probably self-destruct.

This one, from Schott,

http://www.schottcorp.com/products/pdfs/simple_switcher/67126980.pdf

is specifically intended for National's LM2577, but might work
for the MAX787.  You can poke around their website for more, and
they should be available at Digi-Key.

Dave D.

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2003\03\05@231922 by David W. Gulley

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face
Dave Dilatush wrote:
> Jai wrote...
>
>
>>Just as a sort of update, I tried it with 20 ohms resistance... hoping to draw
>>5/20 or 250mA. I couldn't even draw this much! I watched the voltage across
>>the rail and dropped right to 2V, and then I shut it off immediately
>>(considering what happened to my last 2). Could this really be the inductor,
>>even with this little amount of current? What are typical inductors rated at
>>(sorta like normal resistors are usual 1/4 watt)... it has no markings on it.
>>It's pretty small, probably .5cm in diameter.
<SNIP>
> Looking at the MAX787 data sheet, I don't see any information on
> inductor requirements- pretty disappointing, as Linear Technology
> and National Semiconductor both normally include detailed
> inductor information in their chip data sheets.  Why Maxim didn't
> do this for the MAX787, I can't figure.
<SNIP>

Somewhere in the MAX787 literature I saw a recommendation to look at the
MAX724 data sheet:
http://pdfserv.maxim-ic.com/arpdf/MAX724-MAX726.pdf

On page 6 it give an itemized list of suggested components.
Why they didn't just put this in the MAX787 data sheet,
I do not know ...


David W. Gulley
Destiny Designs

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2003\03\06@015212 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Jai Dhar wrote:
>
> Just as a sort of update, I tried it with 20 ohms resistance... hoping to draw
> 5/20 or 250mA. I couldn't even draw this much! I watched the voltage across
> the rail and dropped right to 2V, and then I shut it off immediately
> (considering what happened to my last 2). Could this really be the inductor,
> even with this little amount of current? What are typical inductors rated at
> (sorta like normal resistors are usual 1/4 watt)... it has no markings on it.
> It's pretty small, probably .5cm in diameter.


You said this is a Farnell part, which part number
and value is it? I have used their inductors before
and one range they have is very suited for 1A or 500mA
use.
-Roman

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2003\03\06@083613 by Jai Dhar

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David, thanx for the reference to the datasheet. I will look for some of those
inductors now :-)

Quoting Roman Black <RemoveMEfastvidspamTakeThisOuTEZY.NET.AU>:

{Quote hidden}

I believe someone else mentioned that they used Farnell. I just picked up the
first 50uH inductor that I saw at the local store - obviously wasn't a good
idea :-)

> -Roman
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2003\03\06@085036 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> Just as a sort of update, I tried it with 20 ohms resistance... hoping
> to draw 5/20 or 250mA. I couldn't even draw this much! I watched the
> voltage across the rail and dropped right to 2V, and then I shut it off
> immediately (considering what happened to my last 2).

What it the *input* voltage to your regulator doing at this time?


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2003\03\06@200801 by Jai Dhar

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Quoting Olin Lathrop <RemoveMEolin_piclistspam_OUTspamKILLspamEMBEDINC.COM>:

> > Just as a sort of update, I tried it with 20 ohms resistance... hoping
> > to draw 5/20 or 250mA. I couldn't even draw this much! I watched the
> > voltage across the rail and dropped right to 2V, and then I shut it off
> > immediately (considering what happened to my last 2).
>
> What it the *input* voltage to your regulator doing at this time?

Before I connect the load, the input voltage is ~21.8V. As soon as I put the
load in, it only drops to about 20V. This seems to be what it should be doing,
correct.. indicating a problem with the regulator?

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2003\03\07@075725 by Olin Lathrop

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> Before I connect the load, the input voltage is ~21.8V. As soon as I
> put the load in, it only drops to about 20V. This seems to be what it
> should be doing, correct.. indicating a problem with the regulator?

Yes, that's fine.  I just wanted to make sure the input supply was OK,
else it would be pointless chasing problems in the regulator.


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2003\03\08@143023 by jim barchuk

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Hi Jai!

On Wed, 5 Mar 2003, Jai Dhar wrote:

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The 'glue parts to blank PCB' idea was best. Try to arrange things as they
will be on the final PCB. HF is weird. I once built a proto switcher, was
told 'make it as small as possible.' I asked 'are you sure you want it
*really* small?' and was told 'which part of 'as possible' didn't you
understand?' :) So I made a little appx 3 or 4 in^3 (yes, cubic in)
thingie using almost no wires, just soldering parts to each other. It was
so compact that 'interior' part scould not have been changed without
unsoldering/disassembling everything 'around' it. They loved it, worked
like a charm on the first try. Then they layed it out in appx 10 or 15
in^2 (square inches, flat PCB,) and it 'mostly worked.' It had what they
called the 'funny mode' where it simply wouldn't power up maybe 5% of the
time. They tried changing a few parts but never did fix that rev of the
board. And it was a very large multilayer board, very expensive to mess
around with revisions. Other versions I think they rearranged things and
fixed it.

Have a :) day!

jb

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2003\03\12@172324 by Jai Dhar

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I would like to just thank you for all of your help - I finally got some 47uH
inductors that can handle 4A from Digikey, and I drew 500mA with no
problems!!! This was definitely more than I could before, heh. Thank you all
once again.

Jai

Quoting "David W. Gulley" <KILLspamdgulleyspamBeGonespamDESTINYDESIGNS.COM>:

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