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'[EE]: Powering PIC from RF (Radio waves!)'
2003\01\22@183739 by Kyrre Aalerud

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I have now moved my little 4 meter wire (antenna) a little up the wall and
am actually getting 180mV DC over a resostor that is supposed to simulate my
PIC.  The resistor is 238 kOhm and would equal a PIC using 15 uA at 3 volts,
running at 32 kHz.  (Approx specs for 16F62x using internal clock.)

So, I am actually pulling down 98 nW and need about 45 uW so roughly 460
times as much :-)

I was wondering if I would gain alot if i made a tuned antenna to a specific
frequency as it might remove cancelation of waves in the antenna.

I'm really gunning for the "Perpetuum Mobile" prize hehe...  It's not really
that wonderful, but it would not require any other fuel...

If anyone has any experience or any more info on how to do this I'd be very
happy.
Need all the help I can get on this one!

   KreAture

   KreAture

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2003\01\23@014846 by Also-Antal Csaba

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Kyrre Aalerud wrote:
>
> I have now moved my little 4 meter wire (antenna) a little up the wall and
> am actually getting 180mV DC over a resostor that is supposed to simulate my
> PIC.  The resistor is 238 kOhm and would equal a PIC using 15 uA at 3 volts,
> running at 32 kHz.  (Approx specs for 16F62x using internal clock.)
>
> So, I am actually pulling down 98 nW and need about 45 uW so roughly 460
> times as much :-)

The voltage is to small to do anything. But, if you put on the wire a
small rf transformer.... maybe you can kick up to usable level.

udv
Csaba

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2003\01\23@080149 by Kyrre Aalerud

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The power I receive won't increase by a transformer.
I will get more volts, less amps.

All I think I need is a better antenna.

Unloaded the voltage gets up to 30 volts!

   KreAture

{Original Message removed}

2003\01\23@085100 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> > So, I am actually pulling down 98 nW and need about 45 uW so roughly
460
> > times as much :-)
>
> The voltage is to small to do anything. But, if you put on the wire a
> small rf transformer.... maybe you can kick up to usable level.

That might increase the voltage, but he is still left with 460 times less
power than required.


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(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2003\01\23@124047 by Roman Black

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Kyrre Aalerud wrote:
>
> I have now moved my little 4 meter wire (antenna) a little up the wall and
> am actually getting 180mV DC over a resostor that is supposed to simulate my
> PIC.  The resistor is 238 kOhm and would equal a PIC using 15 uA at 3 volts,
> running at 32 kHz.  (Approx specs for 16F62x using internal clock.)
>
> So, I am actually pulling down 98 nW and need about 45 uW so roughly 460
> times as much :-)


You were on the right track with the first design, ie
charge a cap under no load and run the PIC for a
short burst every few minutes. :o)
-Roman

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2003\01\23@151646 by Peter L. Peres

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On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Kyrre Aalerud wrote:

*>If anyone has any experience or any more info on how to do this I'd be
*>very happy. Need all the help I can get on this one!

Run a wire fence just under a HV line in your neighborhood for 100-200
meters and you can power your entire house with it.

Peter

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2003\01\23@153510 by Chris Loiacono

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The last person I know of that documented experiments on this was Nikola
Tesla. (of course not with PICs...)
The USAF supposedly has a station in Alaska that is a large working version
of Tesla's dome. It transmits RF into the atmosphere that is used to power
remote devices of some secret sort. Just buy the books on his designs and
patents (all long expired) at bn.com

CL

> *>If anyone has any experience or any more info on how to do
> this I'd be
> *>very happy. Need all the help I can get on this one!

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2003\01\23@193238 by Andy Kunz

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At 09:38 PM 1/23/03 +0200, you wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Kyrre Aalerud wrote:
>
>*>If anyone has any experience or any more info on how to do this I'd be
>*>very happy. Need all the help I can get on this one!
>
>Run a wire fence just under a HV line in your neighborhood for 100-200
>meters and you can power your entire house with it.

There was a man a few years ago who have HV lines at the back of his
property.  He built an extended-length clothes line at the edge and used
free power for years.  The power company finally sued him to force him to
stop and he lost in court.

Andy

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2003\01\23@220426 by Kyrre Aalerud

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Hehe, not such a bad idea actually :-)

My grandmother owns some land where the power company has been allowed to
put up some masts to cross over...  It's about 1800 meters with *her* land
and *their* poles.  So with this solution it would equal *her* power hehe...

   KreAture

{Original Message removed}

2003\01\23@220855 by Kyrre Aalerud

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In Norway he would have won!

As long as the power company doesn't loose power in their system from it he
isn't stealing.
The power that is radiated would be radiated anyway, and he might even get
cancer from it so if he uses that power to drive a blender it's his
buisiness.  The power is radiated across his property so he has any right to
utilize it.

I'm sure he would have won.

   KreAture


{Original Message removed}

2003\01\23@235349 by Jonathan Johnson

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Wouldn't the 'secondary' add some impedance to the main line when he adds a
load to it? miniscule but they may argue it as a point.

Out of curiosity, what basis DID they win it on?

JJ
{Original Message removed}

2003\01\24@005141 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
Hi KreAture,

Actually, that is probably not true. Antennas (whether they be intentional
antennas or an AC power transmission line) have a near field region and a
far field region. If you place a receiving antenna in the far field, it
will have very little or no effect on the transmitting antenna, so in that
case, you would be right, the power that goes out into the far field would
be radiated and lost whether there were a receiving antenna there or not.

However, the near field has components known as storage fields. These are
the electric and magnetic fields that are due simply to the inductance and
capacitance of the antenna (or power line). Normally, these result in no
net power loss (just as a pure capacitor or inductor is lossless). They are
called storage fields because they store power during part of the AC cycle
and return it to the AC line in the other half of the cycle. If you place a
receiving antenna in the storage field, you can get coupling (just like
capacitive coupling in a coupling capacitor or inductive coupling in a
transformer) which transfers a significant amount of power and does affect
the transmitter.

In order to guarantee that you are in the far field, for a long wire
antenna, you have to be at least several wavelengths away from the antenna.
At 60Hz, this would be thousands of miles away. So, anything within a few
hundred meters could certainly rob some power from the line if it were made
large enough and optimized for the task.

Sean

At 04:14 AM 1/24/2003 +0100, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2003\01\24@011819 by Also-Antal Csaba

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Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
> > > So, I am actually pulling down 98 nW and need about 45 uW so roughly
> 460
> > > times as much :-)
> >
> > The voltage is to small to do anything. But, if you put on the wire a
> > small rf transformer.... maybe you can kick up to usable level.
>
> That might increase the voltage, but he is still left with 460 times less
> power than required.

Yes. But possile to connect paralell more transformer on secunder side,
when the primer round run with separated antenna.

udv
Csaba

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2003\01\24@033051 by John Sanderson

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Hello Kyrre & PIC.ers,

I'll be begging to differ from you on this one        :)

Your entrepreneur *is* pinching power from the utility, his `antennae' is an
inductively coupled loop that presents no real (i.e. in-phase) impedence to
the overhead power line, while nothing is connected in series with it.
This remains true until he closes his loop with his own real impedence,
i.e. a resistive or other in-phase load.
Once this happens, he represents a power loss to the company and it'll be
proportional to the load he develops.
Energy is not radiated by the lines (well, it is in a small way in the RF
sense), it commences transfer because your farmer has deliberately
constructed a loop to grab the 50 Hz. magnetic field and draw energy
from it.
The energy he takes is lost by the lines, in a very real sense
and would not dissipate without his secondary loop-and-series-load.
(think transformers)

It wouldn't be too hard to prove this in court, but I'd hesitate to guess
what decision the law would end up with.


   best regards,   John

{Quote hidden}

to
>utilize it.
>
>I'm sure he would have won.
>
>    KreAture
>


eMail from the desk of John Sanderson.
JS Controls, PO Box 1887, Boksburg 1460, Rep. of S. Africa.
Tel / Voice / Fax  :  011 893 4154
email  :  jsand @pixie.co.za
Cell : 082 741 6275
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2003\01\24@081259 by Olin Lathrop

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> In Norway he would have won!
>
> As long as the power company doesn't loose power in their system from it
he
> isn't stealing.

Of course he's taking power from their system.

> The power that is radiated would be radiated anyway,

Radiated maybe, but this is certainly not far field "radiation".  Clearly
there is direct coupling between the power line and the pickup wire.  The
pickup wire is essentially the secondary of a transformer.

Nonetheless if the power company floods your property with strong E and B
fields, it seems a bit strange that you shouldn't be allowed to harness
those fields.


*****************************************************************
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(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2003\01\24@095658 by Roman Black

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Olin Lathrop wrote:

> >
> > As long as the power company doesn't loose power in their system from it
> he
> > isn't stealing.

> Nonetheless if the power company floods your property with strong E and B
> fields, it seems a bit strange that you shouldn't be allowed to harness
> those fields.


I'm on the power company's side here. He has made an
air cored transformer, and any competent EE witness in
court would back up the theory that this is the same
transformer principle used by EVERY transformer between
the power company and it's customers to deliver power
from those transmission lines to each customer.

The fact that his home made transformer looked funny
won't cut it. If he had made ANY type of AC transformer
which directly drained power from the power company's
equipment he is stealing their joules plain and simple.
It could be demonstrated that joules he gained were
lost from their system.
-Roman

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2003\01\24@101811 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
Hi Roman,

As much as I agree with you that it is a transformer and that it will cause
a noticeable drain from the power line, I'm not sure I'm on the power
company's side. In essence, if you go along with what you say, then you are
saying that having a power line going near your property restricts your
right to build what you want on your property. So, for example, if I have a
200 meter long field which does NOT go by a power line, I am completely
free to build a long metal wire structure (fence, antenna, whatever) but if
the power company decides to put a power line nearby, I no longer have that
right?

If it were dangerous (i.e., if my metal structure caused overheating of the
power line) or if it made the power distribution economically infeasible
(i.e., drew huge amounts of power from the power line), then I think it
would be clear-cut. However, if it makes very little economic difference to
the power company and causes no danger, I think it makes sense to just say
that everyone has the right to put up what they want on their property.

Sean

At 01:48 AM 1/25/2003 +1100, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2003\01\24@105254 by Roman Black

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Hi, yes it's on his property but the court deals
with INTENT.

If he built the gizmo and it accidentally robbed
power he could claim ignorance, but in the case
we're discussing he deliberately built the gizmo
to get power, and was using it to run equipment.
It had no other purpose. It would be obvious that
his intent was to obtain free power from the power
company, entirely at their expense.

I can't see this as any different from attaching a
wire to their transmission line if it crossed his
property. They are moving power from A to B, he
stole some of it during transit. By electrical or
magnetic coupling is irrelevant as there is very
little difference with AC power.
-Roman



Sean H. Breheny wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2003\01\24@114248 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Sean H. Breheny wrote:
> Hi Roman,
>
> As much as I agree with you that it is a transformer and that it will
> cause a noticeable drain from the power line, I'm not sure I'm on the
> power company's side. In essence, if you go along with what you say,
> then you are saying that having a power line going near your property
> restricts your right to build what you want on your property. So, for
> example, if I have a 200 meter long field which does NOT go by a
> power line, I am completely free to build a long metal wire structure
> (fence, antenna, whatever) but if the power company decides to put a
> power line nearby, I no longer have that right?
[snip]


If the truck full of potatoes travels 10 times a day in front of your
house, and every time falls out one potato just to your front door, what
happens?

Will you be happy and courteous to grab those 10 potatoes (not even paying
attention to the other 2 thousand potatoes all over the road), and drive
your car to the farm just to return the potatoes?

Will you be happy about the gently offer of the farm's owner and eat those
10 potatoes?

Will you just say it is not your problem and will live with 10 rotten
potatoes a day in you front door?

Magnetic field is not a potato, but even your car parked into the field
will steal lots of energy.  Even the ground wire that travels along with
the phase wires steal magnetic energy.

I think the main issue is responsibility of the potato farm's owner, to
increase the truck's sidewalls to avoid losing potatoes along the road.

This is an endless discussion, it goes to RF signals you "must not" tune,
satellite descrambling, etc.  All go to the same point.  By the
incompetence of some, that are not able to protect better their interest,
you are always forbidden to do whatever you want with something that is
INSIDE your own home, based on a law on paper.

This is at least stupid.  People buy my products not because there is a
written law about it, they buy because my product has lower price, better
quality, better support, delivery and so on.

The horse-shoe-maker stated a warning notice that you must not drive your
horse over rocky roads, with penalty of a horse falls and cause traffic
jam.  So, even being the short distance, you could not be horsing around
the rock paved road.  It is your problem or the horse-shoe-maker problem?
Why he didn't produce a rubber shoe in first place?  because he lacks
technology? hmmmm, and it is YOUR fault.

This is the same for car air-bags.  You must not carry a small child in
front seats because in case of accident, the air-bags explosion can kill a
baby or infant.  Now, the first point is;  what is the age of the infant,
where you can feel comfort to sit him/her behind an air-bag?  hmmm, ah, 8
years old? 10? 15? what about yourself?  So, if you have cardio-conditions,
you can be killed by an air-bag explosion, right?  So, you just kick the
back bumper of a "pinto" at 30km/h, enough to deform your front bumper and
kick shoot the air-bag that will kill you, nice huh?  And that, is your
fault.  Yeah, right!

Wagner.

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2003\01\24@120744 by Dave Tweed

face
flavicon
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"Sean H. Breheny" <.....shb7KILLspamspam@spam@CORNELL.EDU> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I'm with Olin and Sean. By choosing open-wire lines for transmission, the
power company has decided to accept a certain amount of energy loss to the
environment. It's just economics -- shielding the lines would cost more
than the value of the energy recovered.

If my body and property are inundated with these fields, I see no valid
argument that I shouldn't be able to make use of them. I use the same
argument with regard to the microwaves that are coursing through my body
from satellites (including pay-TV) and wireless communication towers.

I do, however, accept restrictions on reselling that energy (or data) to
others.

-- Dave Tweed

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2003\01\24@121552 by Kyrre Aalerud

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Amen!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Tweed" <picspamKILLspamDTWEED.COM>
To: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [EE]: Powering PIC from RF (Radio waves!)


> "Sean H. Breheny" <EraseMEshb7spam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTCORNELL.EDU> wrote:
> > At 01:48 AM 1/25/2003 +1100, Roman wrote:
> > > Olin Lathrop wrote:
> > > > Nonetheless if the power company floods your property with strong E
and B
> > > > fields, it seems a bit strange that you shouldn't be allowed to
harness
{Quote hidden}

cause
> > a noticeable drain from the power line, I'm not sure I'm on the power
> > company's side. In essence, if you go along with what you say, then you
are
> > saying that having a power line going near your property restricts your
> > right to build what you want on your property. So, for example, if I
have a
> > 200 meter long field which does NOT go by a power line, I am completely
> > free to build a long metal wire structure (fence, antenna, whatever) but
if
> > the power company decides to put a power line nearby, I no longer have
that
> > right?
> >
> > If it were dangerous (i.e., if my metal structure caused overheating of
the
> > power line) or if it made the power distribution economically infeasible
> > (i.e., drew huge amounts of power from the power line), then I think it
> > would be clear-cut. However, if it makes very little economic difference
to
> > the power company and causes no danger, I think it makes sense to just
say
{Quote hidden}

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2003\01\24@123226 by rad0

picon face
> > > The fact that his home made transformer looked funny
> > > won't cut it. If he had made ANY type of AC transformer
> > > which directly drained power from the power company's
> > > equipment he is stealing their joules plain and simple.
> > > It could be demonstrated that joules he gained were
> > > lost from their system.
> >

How could you demonstrate this?  Where would you put the meter
to measure this?


thanks

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2003\01\24@130708 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, Kyrre Aalerud wrote:

*>Hehe, not such a bad idea actually :-)
*>
*>My grandmother owns some land where the power company has been allowed to
*>put up some masts to cross over...  It's about 1800 meters with *her* land
*>and *their* poles.  So with this solution it would equal *her* power hehe...

Just don't do anything stupid, like exerimenting with an 'insulated'
broomstick to see how much voltage you can get. This is the kind of
experiment that nets Darwin awards every time. Benjamin Franklin was
extremely lucky imho. He did have a couple of close calls though.

Peter

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2003\01\24@132713 by Wagner Lipnharski

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rad0 wrote:
>>>> The fact that his home made transformer looked funny
>>>> won't cut it. If he had made ANY type of AC transformer
>>>> which directly drained power from the power company's
>>>> equipment he is stealing their joules plain and simple.
>>>> It could be demonstrated that joules he gained were
>>>> lost from their system.
>>>
>
> How could you demonstrate this?  Where would you put the meter
> to measure this?


You don't need to.

A magnetic field is a close circuit, there is no such thing of open
magnetic field lines, they always return to the point of origin. If during
the travel, they are captured and transformed in electric current, in
overall they return weak and it will demand more energy at the source, so,
consuming electric current that generated it.

When you take a fluorescent lamp close to a RF transmitter antenna, using a
tuned LC tank, the lamp "turns on white", the RF just excites ions over the
mercury vapor and produce UV, the UV over the phosphor creates visible
light. Well, if that is not stealing RF energy, than you found out the cure
for the world darkness.  Just install a thousand fluorescent lamps around a
10W transmitter and you will have light equivalent to 40kW consume...

The real thing is that you need a 200W or more RF transmitter power to
light one 40W lamp, if you approach a second lamp and LC tank, both lamps
will turn on, but both will get dim, and so on.  It demonstrate that a RF
stealing at the left of an antenna, reduces power transmitted to the right
of it.  Energy is distributed equally, but it needs its own support to get
going.  If the left support wears out, then the right can't be pushed with
the same strength.

You can not think as "Well, the RF at this side of the antenna goes toward
that mountain, so it will be wasted..."  wrong, it will not be wasted, it
serves as push support for the other direction too.  Stealing RF energy
between the antenna and the mountain, will reduces the direct push of such
RF energy immediately exiting the antenna to the other direction.

Am I thinking wrong during the last 40 years?

Wagner.

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2003\01\24@134700 by Kyrre Aalerud

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face
LOL, yeah.
I got my lesson the first time.

   KreAture

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter L. Peres" <plpspamspam_OUTACTCOM.CO.IL>
To: <@spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: [EE]: Powering PIC from RF (Radio waves!)


> On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, Kyrre Aalerud wrote:
>
> *>Hehe, not such a bad idea actually :-)
> *>
> *>My grandmother owns some land where the power company has been allowed
to
> *>put up some masts to cross over...  It's about 1800 meters with *her*
land
> *>and *their* poles.  So with this solution it would equal *her* power
hehe...
{Quote hidden}

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2003\01\24@142956 by Matt Pobursky

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He should have counter-sued the power company for "leaking excess
energy" onto his property which he had to dispose of at the current
electrical rate! ;-)
Matt Pobursky Maximum Performance Systems
On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:14:21 -0500, Andy Kunz wrote:
> There was a man a few years ago who have HV lines at the back of his
> property.  He built an extended-length clothes line at the edge and
> used free power for years.  The power company finally sued him to
> force him to stop and he lost in court.
 

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2003\01\24@151922 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Sat, 25 Jan 2003, Roman Black wrote:

*>I'm on the power company's side here. He has made an
*>air cored transformer, and any competent EE witness in
*>court would back up the theory that this is the same
*>transformer principle used by EVERY transformer between
*>the power company and it's customers to deliver power
*>from those transmission lines to each customer.

I agree the moment the railroads who run parallel to the power lines, and
every owner of any structure of reinforced concrete (has steel in it),
pipeline, bridge, and tin roof near the line also pays up.

Peter (who has experience troubleshooting certain kinds of ground currents
even far away from HV lines and railroads - electric railroads make even
more of those than the electric company).

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2003\01\24@151926 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, Olin Lathrop wrote:

*>> In Norway he would have won!
*>>
*>> As long as the power company doesn't loose power in their system from it
*>he
*>> isn't stealing.
*>
*>Of course he's taking power from their system.

I challenge you to prove (you being the electrical company) that a 1kW
load pinched off like this from a HV line is not due to corona, the
weather, or bad insulators. The lines would transport easily 500kW and 1kW
is just a drop in the ocean at that power. They would blame it on a dead
bird on an insulator or something like that and make a note to check that
line some time real soon (right).

Otherwise, it is probably illegal and certainly dangerous. It would be
interesting to see a transcript of a lawsuit between an engineer and an
electrical company on such a theme ;-).

Peter

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2003\01\24@151930 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, Sean H. Breheny wrote:

*>Hi Roman,
*>
*>As much as I agree with you that it is a transformer and that it will cause
*>a noticeable drain from the power line, I'm not sure I'm on the power
*>company's side. In essence, if you go along with what you say, then you are
*>saying that having a power line going near your property restricts your
*>right to build what you want on your property. So, for example, if I have a
*>200 meter long field which does NOT go by a power line, I am completely
*>free to build a long metal wire structure (fence, antenna, whatever) but if
*>the power company decides to put a power line nearby, I no longer have that
*>right?

Actually there are cases of disputes between owners of previously existing
structures and electrical and electric railroad companies. The ground
currents from the lines will favorise electrochemical corrosion and pipes,
buried cables, and metal bridges may see shortened lifespans.

There are also stories of cows and other animals being affected by too
close HV lines inducing step currents even inside barns. There was even a
US movie about this I once saw, but I know it is true. A large long barn
will pick up enough line power by induction through pipes and structure
reinforcement steel to cause measurable voltages at the end of the
building, between good grounds. There is enough power to run a normal
flashlight bulb or ten (in parallel) off it.

Peter

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2003\01\24@154359 by Herbert Graf

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face
> On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> I challenge you to prove (you being the electrical company) that a 1kW
> load pinched off like this from a HV line is not due to corona, the
> weather, or bad insulators. The lines would transport easily 500kW and 1kW
> is just a drop in the ocean at that power. They would blame it on a dead
> bird on an insulator or something like that and make a note to check that
> line some time real soon (right).
>
> Otherwise, it is probably illegal and certainly dangerous. It would be
> interesting to see a transcript of a lawsuit between an engineer and an
> electrical company on such a theme ;-).

       While difficult to detect that does not change the fact that it IS illegal,
and people have been sucessfully procescuted for doing it. TTYL

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2003\01\24@170151 by Andy Kunz

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At 03:52 PM 1/24/03 +1000, you wrote:
>Wouldn't the 'secondary' add some impedance to the main line when he adds a
>load to it? miniscule but they may argue it as a point.
>
>Out of curiosity, what basis DID they win it on?

Theft.  Utility theft is taken rather seriously in the USA.

Andy

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2003\01\24@170451 by Andy Kunz

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>Just don't do anything stupid, like exerimenting with an 'insulated'
>broomstick to see how much voltage you can get. This is the kind of
>experiment that nets Darwin awards every time. Benjamin Franklin was
>extremely lucky imho. He did have a couple of close calls though.

Actually he did an awful lot RIGHT, such as using silk, staying inside a
dry building, etc.

Andy

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2003\01\24@170656 by Andy Kunz

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>There are also stories of cows and other animals being affected by too
>close HV lines inducing step currents even inside barns. There was even a

We have a man in our church who must keep his pregnant or breeding cows in
a pasture located far from the power lines that traverse his property.  He
learned this the hard way - he lost all the calves one year.

Andy

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2003\01\24@170901 by Andy Kunz

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>        While difficult to detect that does not change the fact that it IS
>illegal, and people have been sucessfully procescuted for doing it. TTYL

Precedence is a lot weightier than technical merit in a court of law!

Andy

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2003\01\24@174329 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> You can not think as "Well, the RF at this side of the antenna goes
toward
> that mountain, so it will be wasted..."  wrong, it will not be wasted,
it
> serves as push support for the other direction too.  Stealing RF energy
> between the antenna and the mountain, will reduces the direct push of
such
> RF energy immediately exiting the antenna to the other direction.

This is only true if you are extracting the energy from the near field.
Once you are far enough away, the power has irreversibly left the antenna
system and tapping it on one side has no effect on the radiation pattern
on the other side.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2003\01\25@075958 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, Andy Kunz wrote:

*>>Just don't do anything stupid, like exerimenting with an 'insulated'
*>>broomstick to see how much voltage you can get. This is the kind of
*>>experiment that nets Darwin awards every time. Benjamin Franklin was
*>>extremely lucky imho. He did have a couple of close calls though.
*>
*>Actually he did an awful lot RIGHT, such as using silk, staying inside a
*>dry building, etc.

You will find that humid silk in normal conditions (water impurities etc)
is a rather good conductor at kV voltages.

Peter

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2003\01\25@081038 by Roman Black

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rad0 wrote:
>
> > > > The fact that his home made transformer looked funny
> > > > won't cut it. If he had made ANY type of AC transformer
> > > > which directly drained power from the power company's
> > > > equipment he is stealing their joules plain and simple.
> > > > It could be demonstrated that joules he gained were
> > > > lost from their system.
> > >
>
> How could you demonstrate this?  Where would you put the meter
> to measure this?


I see a court room with a simple air cored AC transformer
setup, demonstrating that AC power CAN be stolen by the
right type of coil or pickup placed in close proximity. :o)
-Roman

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2003\01\25@121235 by Jonathan Johnson

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you didnt!!!! noooo ROFLMAO.... at those voltages a wooden broomstick may as
well be a length of copper pipe, ever had a play with tesla coils and
voltage multipliers? you need ceramic/glass or plastic insulators. Whats
wood made of? carbon mostly, and carbon is a conductor, just like holding
onto a giant pencil lead and sticking it into a very large power point :-)

I still cant beleive you lived KreAture......

cheers,

JJ
{Original Message removed}

2003\01\25@164547 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
   you need ceramic/glass or plastic insulators. Whats
   wood made of? carbon mostly, and carbon is a conductor,

While your conclusion (don't poke wooden broomsticks at high-voltage things)
is fine, the above statement is completely bogus:

Carbon is a semiconductor, much like silicon.

Plastic has about as much carbon as wood.  Glass is "mostly silicon" by
the same logic.

The fact that carbon might conduct has very little to do with whether carbon
compounds (wood, or plastic, or carbon dioxide, or carbon tetrachloride)
might conduct...

BillW

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2003\01\25@172529 by Matthew Miller

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On Sat, Jan 25, 2003 at 01:45:29PM -0800, William Chops Westfield wrote:
>     you need ceramic/glass or plastic insulators. Whats
>     wood made of? carbon mostly, and carbon is a conductor,
>
> While your conclusion (don't poke wooden broomsticks at high-voltage things)
> is fine, the above statement is completely bogus:
>
> Carbon is a semiconductor, much like silicon.
>
> Plastic has about as much carbon as wood.  Glass is "mostly silicon" by
> the same logic.
>
> The fact that carbon might conduct has very little to do with whether carbon
> compounds (wood, or plastic, or carbon dioxide, or carbon tetrachloride)
> might conduct...

Your right. WRT wood, it isn't the carbon containing compounds that will be
conducting current, but the moisture in the wood. Even kiln dried wood will
contain a few percent water by weight.

Matthew

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2003\01\25@190613 by Kyrre Aalerud

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I didn't do anything *that* stupid.

I made a rectifier/capacitor setup and a antenna setup with a antenna
totaling 5 meters.
I made it in my house, nowhere near any high power lines.

I connected antenna to rectifier and then ground to rectifier.  (To make
sure I didn't move the potentials close to each other before I knew I was
ready.

At 0 load I got the cap up to 65-139 volts DC.  I hadn't measured this and
soldered on 2 wires for a load.  I hadn't removed the isolation in the other
end of the two wires and since they were jointed (produced as a strip of 2
with insulation melted together) I used my mouth and just ripped of the end.
This was when I noticed I actually had some power in that capacitor!  My
lips were numb for quite some time but I got no scars or burns from it.

I wasn't expecting that much voltage, only 2-5 volts.

   KreAture



{Original Message removed}

2003\01\26@151745 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Sat, 25 Jan 2003, Roman Black wrote:

*>> How could you demonstrate this?  Where would you put the meter
*>> to measure this?
*>
*>I see a court room with a simple air cored AC transformer
*>setup, demonstrating that AC power CAN be stolen by the
*>right type of coil or pickup placed in close proximity. :o)

Yes, but DID he steal it or is it just another action by the prosecution
to mislead the jury ?

Peter

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2003\01\27@181339 by M. Adam Davis

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Dave Tweed wrote:

>I'm with Olin and Sean. By choosing open-wire lines for transmission, the
>power company has decided to accept a certain amount of energy loss to the
>environment. It's just economics -- shielding the lines would cost more
>than the value of the energy recovered.
>
>If my body and property are inundated with these fields, I see no valid
>argument that I shouldn't be able to make use of them. I use the same
>argument with regard to the microwaves that are coursing through my body
>from satellites (including pay-TV) and wireless communication towers.
>
>
The valid argument is that public utilities are given certian right of
way rights such that you may own the land over, under, around, or near a
public utility service, but the state and local governments have given
the utility rights to pass their structures over, under, around or
nearby your property and have given them legal protection from the
occupants of the land.

Whether you agree that these are good laws or not, you risk fines and
liability if you do not abide by them until they are changed.  You could
certianly disobey, but since there isn't a very strong movement in favor
of removing such right of way laws then I doubt you'll ever get back
your legal fees and fines in electrical 'savings'.

These sorts of arrangments are held 'for the common good', indicating
that if these activities weren't illegal then the HV lines would be
practically useless transmission meduims, which would be detrimental to
the general public in terms of availability, cost, etc.  You can't claim
that it's cost effective to build electrical transmission systems that
don't emit magnetic, rf & emf fields that are as cheap and as safe as
the current techniques.  Perhaps in the near future these issues will be
moot when we can generate our own power from more easily/safely/cheaply
moved resources.

Those who claim that it's free may as well also claim that once I get a
device (legally) with a PIC in it, I'm free to employee whatever methods
I choose to 'free' the code and do with that code as I please.  We are
all producers, whether you're talking about electricity, code, hard
goods, or music and movies.  While I believe that producers have too
many rights, and consumers too few right now, the scales do tend to
balance pretty well over the long run and I still believe that producers
should be afforded limited rights to their products, depending on the
product type.  We happen to be in a consumer unfriendly swing right now,
though...

>I do, however, accept restrictions on reselling that energy (or data) to
>others.
>
>
What, exactly, is the difference?  You profit from the energy in either
case - either personally or financially.  Is there really a
distinction?  I steal stuff from my neighbors yard, but I /never/ sell
it to the pawn shop - It would be wrong to convert their product into cash.

It's ok, however, to convert their product into light, heat, mechanical
energy, etc and profit from those resources.  You cannot convince me
that you believe your use of their magnetic field, wanted or not, does
not deprive them of part of their primary product.

-Adam

>-- Dave Tweed
>
>
>

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