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'[EE]: Newbie Q. re: electrical outlet and SSR'
2002\02\06@155709 by Jinx

face picon face
> Black is the "hot" lead, and is the one that you should interrupt.
> In a series circuit, from an academic point of view, it does not
> matter, but from a safety point of view, I should never be able
> to touch a white wire that is hot. (loads of things violate this,
> but that's how it should be)

I've just repaired a couple of US-made vacuum testers. One
had Black-White-Green mains wiring, the other Blue-Blue-
Brown. Is there a standard for the US re colour-coding ? In
NZ it's Brown (A) Blue (N) and Green/Yellow stripe (E). The
striped Earth wire is so that people who are red/green colour-
blind don't confuse the Earth and brown Active

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2002\02\06@160412 by Martin Peach

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face
Definitely in US and Canada black is hot/live/painful/burnt and white is
neutral/slightly-tingly-to-the-touch. Green is earth ground. Red is used as
well when there is more than one switch in a circuit.
/\/\/\/*=Martin

{Original Message removed}

2002\02\06@160705 by Dwayne Reid

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face
At 09:57 AM 2/7/02 +1300, Jinx wrote:

>I've just repaired a couple of US-made vacuum testers. One
>had Black-White-Green mains wiring, the other Blue-Blue-
>Brown. Is there a standard for the US re colour-coding ?

Yes.

Hot (line) = black
Neutral = white
Ground = green

dwayne


Dwayne Reid   <spam_OUTdwaynerTakeThisOuTspamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
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2002\02\06@162410 by Jinx

face picon face
> Hot (line) = black
> Neutral = white
> Ground = green

Thanks. I've still got the remains of a heap of Toledo
scales from a supermarket upgrade about 20 years ago.
The mains cables on those are B-W-G. Heavy gauge
multi-strand steel 3-core, unsolderable of course, with
perishable rubber sheaths that have, um, perished

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2002\02\06@162651 by Josh Koffman

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Also, in North America, for three phase power you will have Red, Blue,
Black = all hot, White = neutral, and Green = ground. For places with
two wire service, they are usually a combination of two of the
red/blue/black colours.

Josh

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Martin Peach wrote:
>
> Definitely in US and Canada black is hot/live/painful/burnt and white is
> neutral/slightly-tingly-to-the-touch. Green is earth ground. Red is used as
> well when there is more than one switch in a circuit.
> /\/\/\/*=Martin
>
> {Original Message removed}

2002\02\06@165340 by Chris Loiacono

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face
White Neutrals are bonded to Earth Ground in the building supply panel in
N.A.
If you get tingly feelings from white wires, you may want to check the bus
bar in the main panel box before it corrodes more and things start to
smoke......Wasn't there a thread on this here a couple of months ago?
Chris

{Original Message removed}

2002\02\06@165813 by Josh Koffman

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I thought ground and neutral were bonded at the transformer or
pole...not in the building. I could be wrong though.

Josh
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completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

Chris Loiacono wrote:
>
> White Neutrals are bonded to Earth Ground in the building supply panel in
> N.A.
> If you get tingly feelings from white wires, you may want to check the bus
> bar in the main panel box before it corrodes more and things start to
> smoke......Wasn't there a thread on this here a couple of months ago?
> Chris

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2002\02\06@170733 by Chris Loiacono

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Neutrals are sometimes center taps of transformer windings tied to a ground
reference. This is often how 120V is made from 240.

Chris

{Original Message removed}

2002\02\06@181311 by Lee Jones

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face
>> Definitely in US and Canada black is hot/live/painful/burnt and
>> white is neutral/slightly-tingly-to-the-touch. Green is earth
>> ground. Red is used as well

Frequently, the ground wire is bare copper (no green insulation).
Not so much in power cords, but quite often in in-wall wiring.

Black is hot.  If the cable has multiple hot phases, other hot
wires should be red, blue, yellow, etc.  Note -- in the US, high
volume sales of 2 conductor plus ground romex make it really
cheap.  This wire has black, white, & ground (bare or green).
If it is used for a 240V service with 2 hot phases, the white is
_supposed_ to be tape wrapped black/red/blue/etc.  Don't bet the
installer always did the right thing.

White is supposed to be neutral.  Frequently, black/white/ground
wire is used to switches.  In this case, ends of the white wire
are _supposed_ to be taped black/red/blue/etc to indicate that
both wires are hot phases.  Don't bet your life on it.


> White Neutrals are bonded to Earth Ground in the building supply
> panel in North America.

In 120V system (center tapped 240V), the neutral comes down from
the pole (or out of a conduit).  This neutral forms the panels'
neutral phase.  White wires are attached to it.  An earth ground
is _supposed_ to be provided at the entry panel and _supposed_ to
be bonded to neutral inside the panel.  Don't bet your life on it.


> If you get tingly feelings from white wires, you may want to
> check the bus bar in the main panel box before it corrodes more
> and things start to smoke...

At my location (southern California), the soil is frequently dry
(poor conductor) and rocky (very hard to drive a ground stake
into), so even if the neutral is firmly attached, you may have a
poor earth ground.  This make it real exciting if the neutral
wire in the drop cable breaks (which I've personally seen happen).

                                               Lee Jones

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2002\02\07@041911 by Attila Muhi

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That's different from one country to another. In my opinion, you should bond the wires at the transformer, or use a rod, copper plate or plumbing as ground. At home I have some volts on the ground wire coming from the electricity supplier, and when that is connected to actual ground like the plumbing by the boiler, I get almost 100 mA and quite strong magnetic fields.

SMRAN - Attila
-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
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Datum: den 6 februari 2002 22:58
Ämne: Re: [EE]: Newbie Q. re: electrical outlet and SSR


{Quote hidden}

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2002\02\07@042754 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>In NZ it's Brown (A) Blue (N) and Green/Yellow stripe (E).
>The striped Earth wire is so that people who are red/green
>colour-blind don't confuse the Earth and brown Active

This is actually an international standard, and is what you see right
through Europe as well. Any American product selling internationally should
be supplying power cords with this colour coding, or they have problems
getting approvals at the destination market.

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2002\02\07@064019 by Jinx

face picon face
> This is actually an international standard, and is what you
> see right through Europe as well

Pity that doesn't extend to plugs and wall sockets. Any moves
to standardise those or do the adapter magnates lobby too
hard ? ;-)

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2002\02\07@075429 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Pity that doesn't extend to plugs and wall sockets. Any moves
>to standardise those or do the adapter magnates lobby too
>hard ? ;-)

so long as the English plug gets ruled out at the first selection board
meeting. These horrible monster things with fuse are ......................
(fill in your own swear words)

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2002\02\07@090252 by Jon Baker

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> so long as the English plug gets ruled out at the first selection board
> meeting. These horrible monster things with fuse are
......................
> (fill in your own swear words)

I quite like the english plugs.. After living in the US and Australia for
a couple of years and being scared to death that there were no fuses
and hardly and sockets actually had grounds on them (US) let alone
switches - give me the stupid chunky heavy awkward british plugs
any day !!

Jon

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2002\02\07@093838 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Australia for a couple of years and being scared to
>death that there were no fuses and hardly and sockets
>actually had grounds on them

Well the Australian ones certainly have a ground pin, because they use the
same ones NZ uses (I'm a Kiwi), and the fuses are on the fuse board, wired
out to the room sockets in a star configuration.

The English wiring system is to run a ring main around all the sockets with
a single large circuit breaker or fuse, which has the horrible effect that a
faulty appliance can still take out the whole ring main instead of just the
faulty appliance. Hope your fridge or freezer is not on the same circuit
when the TV set blows the fuse.

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2002\02\07@103800 by David VanHorn

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>
>The English wiring system is to run a ring main around all the sockets
>with a single large circuit breaker or fuse

The English have a long standing hate-hate relationship with
electrics.   I've owned British cars.

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2002\02\07@103821 by Chris Loiacono

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face
I just got paid to design and prototype an adapter for one to plug their
appliance into, then into the wall. If you think your fused monsters are
ugly, you should see what it takes to thermally interrupt the AC line in the
case of a poor connection in the receptacle. The client wanted visible
indication of overheat and positive interruption of service.

They feel they will automatically sell millions of these by getting
insurance compnies behind them. Imagine that there are so many old apartment
buildings in the US with wiring that is literally falling apart and with
aluminum wiring. For several years during the '70's, Aluminum was to code
w/o any anti-ox goop when connected to copper terminals....that's scary.

I also wrote a re-cert standard for residential-re-connects for the city of
Homestead FL immediately after Hurricane Andrew destroyed the place back in
'92, I think.
Houses were lireally ripped apart - lot's of wet wiring from rain through
what used to be a roof in some cases, ground water rising in others. The
real need was to certify that a house was free of ground faults before
re-connecting the service.
During the couple of days I was given to survey the situation, I saw horrors
that I could not imagine. Some brand spanking new homes had wiring done in
all different colors. Others had no ground bond, others yet had connections
made with black tape. The older homes were worse.
It was pretty neat that there were linesmen from many different states
working to get electrical service back to the city, but it was even more
scary to see several of these guys drunk as skunks while doing so.
My favorite was the skeleton of a rat in one panel box that had chewed
through a feed wire's insulation. In any case, the older homes were a little
better. It was certainly a surreal experience, like the old Max Headroom TV
show. Tt's to my amazement that the entire state of Florida doesn't just
burn down.

And, yes, by order of law (the U.S. participates in the ISO program through
a number of sanctioned agencies, and while it's pretty common knowledge that
ANSI and ISO standards are being harmonized - many UL standards are being
re-labeled as ANSI/UL - all products commercially sold in the us are
SUPPOSED to be in compliance with ANSI/UL safety standards. There is a major
effort ongoing to harmonize these standards until there can be agreement on
one set, such as ISO, as if that will ever happen...It's starting to smell
like international law making) we'll all be seeing the same color wires -
inside devices, but I wouldn't look for much change in structure wiring any
time soon. I don't recall seeing anything about GRN/YE grounds in my latest
copy of the NEC...and the NFPA that publishes it isn't about to let anyone
tell them what to write....

I don't know for sure, perhpas this is a good thing - today if your US
product doesn't cut it according to one standard, you simply try to pass the
next. As long as you comply with something, your insurance company will
cover you, so who cares, burn the planet down...
Too much stinking politics...

Sorry for the long post...It's just a subject close to my heart  (Grrrr..)
Chris

{Original Message removed}

2002\02\07@103844 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

But a TV would have about a 5 Amp fuse in the plug, so it's likely to blow
somewhat faster than the 30 Amp ring main fuse in the distriubution panel.

Having seen and used US plugs, they seem amazingly flimsy, especialy as they
presumably have to pass twice the current that the UK ones do?  That said,
besides the size of UK plugs, there is another draw back, as anyone who has
accidently stepped on one (prongs up!) with bare feet will testify!  And of
course the fact that on certain styles, virtualy no-one remebers that you
have to fit the cover onto the flex before screwing the conductors in.
That's when the knife/sidecutters usualy come in play...

Mike

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2002\02\07@110028 by Jon Baker

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> accidently stepped on one (prongs up!) with bare feet will testify!  And
of
> course the fact that on certain styles, virtualy no-one remebers that you
> have to fit the cover onto the flex before screwing the conductors in.
> That's when the knife/sidecutters usualy come in play...

You had to bring that up didn't you.. " Duraplugs" oh how I tried to forget
those things !!

Jon

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2002\02\07@112244 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>But a TV would have about a 5 Amp fuse in the plug, so it's likely to blow
>somewhat faster than the 30 Amp ring main fuse in the distriubution panel.

Yeah, till someone fits a higher rated fuse "because the other one keeps
blowing" :)) Where have I heard that before?

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2002\02\07@114034 by Martin Peach

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In Canada all the 120V circuits are supposed to have 15A fuses at the main
entry box. The older houses have screw-in fuses that tend to get replaced by
20A or 30A when someone finds that the kettle and the toaster and the TV
don't work together on the same multiplug. Newer installations use breaker
switches that are harder to replace by the electrically inept. In the UK
system there is a danger of people adding more and more thin extension cords
that eventually overheat and burn the place down. Maybe that's why there is
more stone and brick construction there...
/\/\/\/*=Martin

{Original Message removed}

2002\02\07@114047 by Martin Peach

flavicon
face
I guess it doesn't matter what standards exist because there is a strong
tradition in North America of building or at least extending your own house.
Nobody ever checks the wiring except maybe the insurance folks look at your
breaker box the first time you apply, but then a lot of people don't have
insurance either.
/\/\/\/*=Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Loiacono" <@spam@chrisKILLspamspamMAIL2ASI.COM>
To: <KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: [EE]: Newbie Q. re: electrical outlet and SSR


> I just got paid to design and prototype an adapter for one to plug their
> appliance into, then into the wall. If you think your fused monsters are
> ugly, you should see what it takes to thermally interrupt the AC line in
the
> case of a poor connection in the receptacle. The client wanted visible
> indication of overheat and positive interruption of service.
>
> They feel they will automatically sell millions of these by getting
> insurance compnies behind them. Imagine that there are so many old
apartment
> buildings in the US with wiring that is literally falling apart and with
> aluminum wiring. For several years during the '70's, Aluminum was to code
> w/o any anti-ox goop when connected to copper terminals....that's scary.
>
> I also wrote a re-cert standard for residential-re-connects for the city
of
> Homestead FL immediately after Hurricane Andrew destroyed the place back
in
> '92, I think.
> Houses were lireally ripped apart - lot's of wet wiring from rain through
> what used to be a roof in some cases, ground water rising in others. The
> real need was to certify that a house was free of ground faults before
> re-connecting the service.
> During the couple of days I was given to survey the situation, I saw
horrors
> that I could not imagine. Some brand spanking new homes had wiring done in
> all different colors. Others had no ground bond, others yet had
connections
> made with black tape. The older homes were worse.
> It was pretty neat that there were linesmen from many different states
> working to get electrical service back to the city, but it was even more
> scary to see several of these guys drunk as skunks while doing so.
> My favorite was the skeleton of a rat in one panel box that had chewed
> through a feed wire's insulation. In any case, the older homes were a
little
> better. It was certainly a surreal experience, like the old Max Headroom
TV
> show. Tt's to my amazement that the entire state of Florida doesn't just
> burn down.
>
> And, yes, by order of law (the U.S. participates in the ISO program
through
> a number of sanctioned agencies, and while it's pretty common knowledge
that
> ANSI and ISO standards are being harmonized - many UL standards are being
> re-labeled as ANSI/UL - all products commercially sold in the us are
> SUPPOSED to be in compliance with ANSI/UL safety standards. There is a
major
> effort ongoing to harmonize these standards until there can be agreement
on
> one set, such as ISO, as if that will ever happen...It's starting to smell
> like international law making) we'll all be seeing the same color wires -
> inside devices, but I wouldn't look for much change in structure wiring
any
> time soon. I don't recall seeing anything about GRN/YE grounds in my
latest
> copy of the NEC...and the NFPA that publishes it isn't about to let anyone
> tell them what to write....
>
> I don't know for sure, perhpas this is a good thing - today if your US
> product doesn't cut it according to one standard, you simply try to pass
the
> next. As long as you comply with something, your insurance company will
> cover you, so who cares, burn the planet down...
> Too much stinking politics...
>
> Sorry for the long post...It's just a subject close to my heart  (Grrrr..)
> Chris
>
> {Original Message removed}

2002\02\07@114418 by Dale Botkin

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face
On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, David VanHorn wrote:

> >
> >The English wiring system is to run a ring main around all the sockets
> >with a single large circuit breaker or fuse
>
> The English have a long standing hate-hate relationship with
> electrics.   I've owned British cars.

Ples re-snd, I hae a Lucas cble modem...

Daldcwnj bt4n b bn6mh5n h

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2002\02\07@115008 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Maybe that's why there is
>more stone and brick construction there...

Nah, its because they don't know any better...

There was a house program on TV awhile back where the presenter had quite a
down on houses with timber frames and plaster wall linings - made me laugh,
especially when I look at the hoo-haa I will need to go to just to move a
light switch about a foot - anyone got a kango hammer, I need to make a
groove in the brickwork here....

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2002\02\07@120611 by Bob Barr

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On Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:43:00 -0600, Dale Botkin wrote:

>On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, David VanHorn wrote:
>
>> >
>> >The English wiring system is to run a ring main around all the sockets
>> >with a single large circuit breaker or fuse
>>
>> The English have a long standing hate-hate relationship with
>> electrics.   I've owned British cars.
>
>Ples re-snd, I hae a Lucas cble modem...
>
>Daldcwnj bt4n b bn6mh5n h

Now, that's cold. Funny, but cold. :=)

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2002\02\07@123544 by Josh Koffman

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Similar note, I believe BX (metal clad cable, aka MC, or armoured cable)
is code in New York...because of rats nibbling on the insulation...

Josh
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completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
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Martin Peach wrote:
> In the UK
> system there is a danger of people adding more and more thin extension cords
> that eventually overheat and burn the place down. Maybe that's why there is
> more stone and brick construction there...
> /\/\/\/*=Martin

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2002\02\07@125238 by Chris Loiacono

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BX was banned from NYC, also in the 70's - it was widely used for that
reason, but NY Electricians couldn't cut the armor without nicking the inner
jackets and shorting it out.
Same few years as aluminum to copper wiring....Homes and buildings  built in
the 70's in the US, NY especially - is often aggravating to RE agents
because inspections reveal these two problems - usually just before closing.
OK, who's gonna pay for the re-wiring job?

>Similar note, I believe BX (metal clad cable, aka MC, or armoured cable)
>is code in New York...because of rats nibbling on the insulation...
>
>Josh

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2002\02\07@125822 by Kevin Blain

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So long as they take out those nasty european schuko too. The fact that
you can plug in an appliance needing earth into the two pin shaver
socket in the bathroom .......

> {Original Message removed}

2002\02\07@130434 by Martin Baker

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face
Actually, this leads into a similar problem we run into in northern California.
Many areas here are cursed with Adobe soil which never dries out, not even
after eight years of drought. Code here permits/requires the ground rod be
placed under the concrete, usually in the garage, as close to the service
entrance as possible. In moist ground, subjected to the alkali leach from
the concrete, they literally dissolve in 2-3 years. I have put in two new
ones that have already vanished, away from the concrete... and I have been
here only ten years.

What this means, is that in a Modern home in  California, The Earth ground
is a myth. The phone company grounds their lines in sand filled holes......

Martin

" But Sahib, he must be a very powerful magician, for eah night, in his
tent, he produces a wooden box and connects it to a box smelling of
brimstone, and the wooden box is filled with glass bottles containing fire
demons who speak to him in many languages"



At 01:02 PM 2/7/02 -0800, you wrote:
>BX was banned from NYC, also in the 70's - it was widely used for that
>reason, but NY Electricians couldn't cut the armor without nicking the inner
>jackets and shorting it out.
>Same few years as aluminum to copper wiring....Homes and buildings  built in
>the 70's in the US, NY especially - is often aggravating to RE agents
>because inspections reveal these two problems - usually just before closing.
>OK, who's gonna pay for the re-wiring job?

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2002\02\07@140153 by Attila Muhi

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>The English have a long standing hate-hate relationship with
>electrics.   I've owned British cars.

Lucas - the inventor of darkness ?

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2002\02\08@011254 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> >The English wiring system is to run a ring main around all the sockets
> >with a single large circuit breaker or fuse
>
> The English have a long standing hate-hate relationship with
> electrics.   I've owned British cars.


Joe Lucas says "Don't go out at night" :-)




       RM

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2002\02\08@025105 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
>> Hot (line) = black
>> Neutral = white
>> Ground = green
>
>Thanks. I've still got the remains of a heap of Toledo
>scales from a supermarket upgrade about 20 years ago.
>The mains cables on those are B-W-G. Heavy gauge
>multi-strand steel 3-core, unsolderable of course, with
>perishable rubber sheaths that have, um, perished

Please use two or three letter abbreviations for colors, to avoid
confusions. I'm just saying this because I got bitten by schematics
documented by myself with 1-letter color codes. After a long enough time
passes, you may as well not have written it yourself ...

B = black ? brown ? blue ? -> bk/blk, bw/bwn, bl/blu

G = green ? grey ? -> gn/grn, gr/gry

I think that there is a standard for this (colors) too but I don't know
which.

Peter

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2002\02\08@031438 by Jinx

face picon face
> >> Hot (line) = black
> >> Neutral = white
> >> Ground = green
> >
> >Thanks. I've still got the remains of a heap of Toledo
> >scales from a supermarket upgrade about 20 years ago.
> >The mains cables on those are B-W-G. Heavy gauge
> >multi-strand steel 3-core, unsolderable of course, with
> >perishable rubber sheaths that have, um, perished
>
> Please use two or three letter abbreviations for colors

I was referring to the colours at the top from the post I replied
to, which is why they are on the screen at this very moment

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