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'[EE]: Lithium Ion Batteries.. I told Ya So'
2006\08\15@112119 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
I told everyone here that unless the safety issues with Lithium Ion
batteries can be resolved,
there will be a push on to stop using them. In addition to Dell
recalling 4.1M laptop batteries,
the FAA is reviewing whether to allow Li-Ion-based laptops on board
airplanes at all.

I told ya so, about 14 months ago.

--Bob

2006\08\15@115342 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
On 8/15/06, Bob Axtell <spam_OUTengineerTakeThisOuTspamneomailbox.com> wrote:
> I told everyone here that unless the safety issues with Lithium Ion
> batteries can be resolved,
> there will be a push on to stop using them. In addition to Dell
> recalling 4.1M laptop batteries,
> the FAA is reviewing whether to allow Li-Ion-based laptops on board
> airplanes at all.

This is finally normal. A Li-Ion explodes with a lot of fire and is
very difficult to
damp. Even a small phone battery is dangerous if explodes inside the house.

Vasile

2006\08\15@132317 by Walter Banks

picon face

Li-Ion was banned from use in ELTs on general aviation aircraft a few years ago for two or three years
before being re-certified. This is the second Dell battery recall in the last 5 years

w..

Bob Axle wrote:

> I told everyone here that unless the safety issues with Lithium Ion
> batteries can be resolved,
> there will be a push on to stop using them. In addition to Dell
> recalling 4.1M laptop batteries,
> the FAA is reviewing whether to allow Li-Ion-based laptops on board
> airplanes at all.
>
> I told ya so, about 14 months ago.

2006\08\15@132708 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: .....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu [piclist-bouncesspamKILLspammit.edu]
>Sent: 15 August 2006 16:21
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: [EE]: Lithium Ion Batteries.. I told Ya So
>
>
>I told everyone here that unless the safety issues with Lithium Ion
>batteries can be resolved,
>there will be a push on to stop using them. In addition to Dell
>recalling 4.1M laptop batteries,
>the FAA is reviewing whether to allow Li-Ion-based laptops on board
>airplanes at all.
>
>I told ya so, about 14 months ago.

I don't see that limiting/preventing the use on planes is an indicator that their use will be terminated for all applications.  There is simply nothing to replace them at the moment, in terms of cost vs energy density.  Out of interest, do you known if they are considering banning mobile phones on planes?

Regards

Mike

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2006\08\15@141119 by John Ferrell

face picon face
Li-Ion are pretty tame compared to Li-Po technology.

John Ferrell    W8CCW
"My Competition is not my enemy"
http://DixieNC.US

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Rigby-Jones" <.....Michael.Rigby-JonesKILLspamspam.....bookham.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <EraseMEpiclistspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 1:27 PM
Subject: RE: [EE]: Lithium Ion Batteries.. I told Ya So


>
>
>>{Original Message removed}

2006\08\15@142821 by Marc Nicholas

picon face
Roll-on personal nuclear!! ;-)

-marc

2006\08\15@144347 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face
{Quote hidden}

I think most modern phones use Li-Po though?  They are certainly very thin batteries anyway.

Regards

Mike


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not make any use of this information, or copy or show it to any
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2006\08\15@151020 by Stephen R Phillips

picon face


--- Bob Axtell <spamBeGoneengineerspamBeGonespamneomailbox.com> wrote:

> I told everyone here that unless the safety issues with Lithium Ion
> batteries can be resolved,
> there will be a push on to stop using them. In addition to Dell
> recalling 4.1M laptop batteries,
> the FAA is reviewing whether to allow Li-Ion-based laptops on board
> airplanes at all.
>
> I told ya so, about 14 months ago.
>
> --Bob
The problem is that safe LI-ION batteries have been available for a
while now.  Many ompanies simply haven't done there homework or don't
wish to change or see no reason to change.  After dealing with Staples
I can safely say NEVER let the product be developed by an executive.
They ruined a perfectly good product to 'save money', and no you never
will see it either (long dead now).

see
http://www.valence.com/saphion.asp
for much safer LI-ION technology.

Stephen R. Phillips was here
Please be advised what was said may be absolutely wrong, and hereby this disclaimer follows.  I reserve the right to be wrong and admit it in front of the entire world.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

2006\08\15@154224 by Gus S Calabrese

face picon face
All that this demonstrates .....  is what idiots most government  
drones are.
Use of laptops is too valuable to throw off planes.  In a free market,
( as there should be ) , airlines would come up with ways to handle
fires.  I would gladly fly on  a plane loaded with laptops, personal
firearms, repulsors, knives, and nail clippers.  As long as I did not  
have
to go thru a security check.  I currently do not fly because of asinine,
ineffective, worthless, intrusive security checks at airports.
What kind of engineering brain can see an ROI for current airport
security systems ?  I dream of stolen camel heads.

Gus

On 2006-Aug 15, at 11:27hrs AM, Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:



> {Original Message removed}

2006\08\15@154348 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Well, if you think it over that before this Dell issue explosion of a Li-Ion
or Li-Po battery was not very common (used by millions in their celluar
phones and other portable devices) it is completely understandable not to
bother the new technologies. Why to use safer fuel if cars are not very
likely to be exploded (I am not talking about films :-).

So if a product manager could save $20 on a single laptop it is a huge
saving in the entire production so that he will save that money and that's
his job to do so, that's what the shareholders expect from him. The bad
thing is that there was a really badly constructed series that not just
affected the expenses of Dell (recalling, loss of reputation of the
trademark) but also very dangerous to us.

Tamas


On 15/08/06, Stephen R Phillips <TakeThisOuTcyberman_phillipsEraseMEspamspam_OUTyahoo.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\08\15@170901 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:
>  
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: piclist-bouncesEraseMEspam.....mit.edu [EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspammit.edu]
>> Sent: 15 August 2006 16:21
>> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>> Subject: [EE]: Lithium Ion Batteries.. I told Ya So
>>
>>
>> I told everyone here that unless the safety issues with Lithium Ion
>> batteries can be resolved,
>> there will be a push on to stop using them. In addition to Dell
>> recalling 4.1M laptop batteries,
>> the FAA is reviewing whether to allow Li-Ion-based laptops on board
>> airplanes at all.
>>
>> I told ya so, about 14 months ago.
>>    
>
> I don't see that limiting/preventing the use on planes is an indicator that their use will be terminated for all applications.  There is simply nothing to replace them at the moment, in terms of cost vs energy density.  Out of interest, do you known if they are considering banning mobile phones on planes?
>  
I don't know. All I DO know is that the FAA meets and discusses this
repeatedly.

I agree, the weight to energy storage ration is higher than anything.

--Bob

{Quote hidden}

2006\08\15@171530 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Aug 15, 2006, at 11:14 AM, John Ferrell wrote:

> Li-Ion are pretty tame compared to Li-Po technology.
>
I hear that, generally from the model plane community where they're
in the habit of using cells without any electrical protection, and
with very little in the form of mechanical protection. (in an
application where the mechanical protection might be important.)
But the technology is very similar to li-ion, and I'm not convinced
that they're fundamentally "less tame."

(likewise, the last laptop battery pack I stripped for it's cells
happened to have LiPo cells rather than li-ion cells, so it's hard
to tell which is which...)

BillW

2006\08\15@171820 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
>> The problem is that safe LI-ION batteries have been available
>> for a while now.  Many ompanies simply haven't done there
>> homework or don't wish to change or see no reason to change.

And since the "safe" cells have somewhat lower capacity, the
customers won't buy them, either (especially the ones planning
on using their laptops on airplanes.)

BillW

2006\08\15@172800 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
>
> And since the "safe" cells have somewhat lower capacity, the
> customers won't buy them, either (especially the ones planning
> on using their laptops on airplanes.)


std 110 outlet at each seat would help a lot.

2006\08\15@173734 by Sean Schouten

face picon face
On 8/15/06, David VanHorn <RemoveMEdvanhornEraseMEspamEraseMEmicrobrix.com> wrote:
>
>
> std 110 outlet at each seat would help a lot.
>



As in: "Leave your batteries at home"?

2006\08\15@175106 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
>
>
> As in: "Leave your batteries at home"?


That, or very energy-limited ones that would run for maybe 5 minutes.

2006\08\15@180530 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Usually who uses LiPo or LiIon batteries for an airplane uses electric
motors (with 2s, 3s or even 4s packs). For those you have to use a speed
controller with a BEC that makes the 5V for the radio and I am not sure
others but for example I have one that specially designed for LiIon/LiPo
batteries so that it measures it I do not know how many times in a second
and shuts the system (nearly) completly down if anything is wrong -- well,
it does not measure the temperature of the battery which might be a good
idea. I am also using a cell equalizer for charging and a quite expensive
charger that also measures the battery several times a second but I know
lots of others do not care about of that -- as far as I know the cell
equalizer is nothing about the safety but the durability of the battery,
however, using an improper charer has a risk of having an explosion. Well,
mechanical protection... when I smashed my plane into the ground at around
60 Km/h the battery itself had not even scratched as it was housing in a
styroplast strengthened by fibre glass -- I think it is much more protective
than a mobile phone or a laptop battery, so i do not know, when you drop it
onto to a hard floor I think you have a better chance to happen something.

Tamas


On 15/08/06, William Chops Westfield <RemoveMEwestfwspam_OUTspamKILLspammac.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\08\15@195147 by Tim

picon face
I believe that in most cases related to radio controlled aircraft the
rather spectacular failures that are reported occur when the LiPoly
cells are improperly charged.

Tim


Tamas Rudnai wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> --

2006\08\15@200543 by Gaston Gagnon

face
flavicon
face
Tim wrote:
> I believe that in most cases related to radio controlled aircraft the
> rather spectacular failures that are reported occur when the LiPoly
> cells are improperly charged.
>
>  
Here is a quite spectacular example of Lipo battery being overcharged.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3690260570423705609

Gaston

2006\08\15@201801 by Zik Saleeba

face picon face
Yes, damaged LiPos are common in radio control. This is nearly always
due to them being shorted out or developing a charging issue rather
than physical damage though. Often the charger connections are in the
form of banana plugs which can be easily touched together by mistake.
That's all it takes for a LiPo to swell up and become a "bomb".

The solution to this problem adopted by the battery and charger
manufacturers is to have disclaimers all over their gear saying that
you should only charge it outdoors. R/C people are used to their
planes crashing so batteries that explode just add to the fun!

Cheers,
Zik

On 8/16/06, William Chops Westfield <EraseMEwestfwspamspamspamBeGonemac.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\08\16@012747 by Denny Esterline

picon face
<snip>
> to go thru a security check.  I currently do not fly because of asinine,
> ineffective, worthless, intrusive security checks at airports.
> What kind of engineering brain can see an ROI for current airport
> security systems ?  I dream of stolen camel heads.
>
> Gus

I was with you, right up to the camel heads.?.?
-Denny


2006\08\16@021220 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>> std 110 outlet at each seat would help a lot.

> As in: "Leave your batteries at home"?

As in

   "Electrolyse water right at your seat at 3am ...",
   "Generate chlorine right at ...",
   "Make things really really hot ...",
   "Charge up the high value capacitors built into your shoes and
clothing ..."
   "Energise you local electric fences ..."
    ... .  *

(At present you can to go to the toilets and use the energy sources
there to do these things, so it would be no great change, but N people
could do it at once at locations which were most convenient.

FWIW some airlines, within the last year, still handed out full sets
of metal utensils at meal times.

A relatively wimpy electric fence in the right place at the right
time, especially if unexpected, could be a very useful means of
keeping you separated from people who didn't like your face during
certain important periods.

A few distributed farads charged to a few hundred volts could make
manual restraint difficult or provide an 'unarmed' person with certain
compelling advantages.

The largely unprobable internal volume and necessary electronic
content of a laptop seem likely to make it a proscribed item in due
course. A modern high duration lithium ion battery, (and things which
look like them but largely aren't),  is quite large and probably
essentially XRay opaque. If it contained material which shielded
fields liable to resonate certain high energy chemical bonds,
especially if the shielding was highly selective and tailored to
specifically appropriate bonds, then it's likely this could be made
relatively non-apparent. As long as one had ?Dave or equivalent along
with suitable surrogate substances on his hands at the same time as a
confounder one should be able to be adequately 'safe'.



       RM

* some / most of these sound pretty bizarre to me.
Other things which used to sound bizarre are now accepted as viable
'tools' without murmur.



2006\08\16@030528 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
> std 110 outlet at each seat would help a lot.
>
Doesn't scale very well.  A modern airliner has a couple hundred
seats...  I got asked about some issues on the
remote controlled power supply for our new ethernet switch.
8700 watts.  Presumably that's about 20W each for several hundred
ethernet ports (PoE), plus a thousand watts or so for the switch
itself.  Sigh.

BillW


2006\08\16@031500 by Tony Smith

picon face
>     "Make things really really hot ...",
>     "Charge up the high value capacitors built into your
> shoes and clothing ..."
>     "Energise you local electric fences ..."
>      ... .  *
>
> A relatively wimpy electric fence in the right place at the
> right time, especially if unexpected, could be a very useful
> means of keeping you separated from people who didn't like
> your face during certain important periods.
>
> A few distributed farads charged to a few hundred volts could
> make manual restraint difficult or provide an 'unarmed'
> person with certain compelling advantages.


I wonder if disposable cameras will be sold at airports soon, fairly handy
capacitor in there.

A better way is to use a couple of old-style iron core transformers.  Hook
them up to your laptop battery in reverse, i.e. a 240v to 6v transformer
will also convert 6v to 240v.  Wire up a couple in series, and you have a
handy cattle prod.  You'll need an oscillator, a DPDT relay can work here.
The output won't be pretty under a scope, but still be capable of warding
off "people who didn't like your face".

The bulk of these are a bit hard to crack open while sitting in your seat,
but that's easy circumvented.

Tony

2006\08\16@035613 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>So if a product manager could save $20 on a single laptop
>it is a huge saving in the entire production so that he will
>save that money and that's his job to do so, that's what
>the shareholders expect from him.

I doubt they will bless him for the recall of 4 million batteries ...

>The bad thing is that there was a really badly constructed
>series that not just affected the expenses of Dell (recalling,
>loss of reputation of the trademark) but also very dangerous to us.

Yeah, well, apparently it is hitting the Sony share price ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4797073.stm?ls

2006\08\16@040721 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>FWIW some airlines, within the last year, still handed
>out full sets of metal utensils at meal times.

I would maintain that I could do more damage to someones wrists with the
serrated plastic knives they hand out than I ever could with the metal
non-serrated ones.

To say nothing of the glass bottles on the drinks trolley ...

2006\08\16@083459 by Tony Smith

picon face
> > What kind of engineering brain can see an ROI for current airport
> > security systems ?  I dream of stolen camel heads.
> >
> > Gus
>
> I was with you, right up to the camel heads.?.?
> -Denny


This came up in another thread:
<www.smh.com.au/news/National/A-baggage-handler-took-my-camel-suit/20
05/04/07/1112815671754.html>

Basically, why bother with security when the baggage handlers have free
reign.

The real significance is to to with this person:
<www.theage.com.au/news/Corby-Case/Judges-say-Corby-charges-proven/20
05/05/27/1117129868479.html>.

20 years jail for importing 4kg of marijuana into Indonesia, a few months
before the 'camel head' incident.  She claimed that the baggage handlers
planted the drugs, which was denied by all and sundry - "what, they'd never
do that, honest as the day is long, those chaps".  She has a fair claim to
being innocent, you ship heroin from of Asia, not marijuana in, had no
motive (not a user or broke), well travelled so she knew the rules, was
married to a Japanese bloke, etc.

Tony

2006\08\16@100249 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Dave,

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:27:59 -0400, David VanHorn wrote:

> > And since the "safe" cells have somewhat lower capacity, the
> > customers won't buy them, either (especially the ones planning
> > on using their laptops on airplanes.)
>
>
> std 110 outlet at each seat would help a lot.

By "std 110" I presume you mean American mains sockets?  :-)  There is already a standard for low voltage DC at the seat (a real standard, with the
connector, voltage and current availability specified, and how it will react in an overcurrent situation), but most airlines don't fit it in Cattle Class, so
those of us who pay for our own flights have to rely on batteries.

Also, some laptops won't power up without a battery in place.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\08\16@100559 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Bill,

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 00:05:25 -0700, William "Chops" Westfield wrote:

> > std 110 outlet at each seat would help a lot.
> >
> Doesn't scale very well.  A modern airliner has a couple hundred
> seats...

Actually the latest ones are pushing 500!

> I got asked about some issues on the
> remote controlled power supply for our new ethernet switch.
> 8700 watts.  Presumably that's about 20W each for several hundred
> ethernet ports (PoE), plus a thousand watts or so for the switch
> itself.  Sigh.

Why on Earth would an ethernet switch need a kilowatt?  Is it actually running hundreds of ports in one device?

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\08\16@101430 by olin piclist

face picon face
Howard Winter wrote:
> Why on Earth would an ethernet switch need a kilowatt?  Is it actually
> running hundreds of ports in one device?

Full power over ethernet means the switch has to source about 15(?) watts
per port.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2006\08\16@103746 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
I suppose that's a gigabit one?

On 16/08/06, Olin Lathrop <RemoveMEolin_piclistKILLspamspamembedinc.com> wrote:
>
> Howard Winter wrote:
> > Why on Earth would an ethernet switch need a kilowatt?  Is it actually
> > running hundreds of ports in one device?
>
> Full power over ethernet means the switch has to source about 15(?) watts
> per port.
>
>
> ******************************************************************
> Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
> consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products
> -

2006\08\16@104747 by peter green

flavicon
face

> Doesn't scale very well.  A modern airliner has a couple hundred
> seats...
a virgin pendalino train also has a couple of hundred seats, didn't stop
them offering standard british 240V sockets for passenger use (marked as
"laptops and mobile phones only" but people use other small appliances too
and noone seems to care).

i don't know how many laptops they can power at once per carrige but i've
never heared of them tripping out. I guess a buisness or first class section
on a plane may have a higher density of laptop users than a train though so
lets do some sums assuming a pretty extreme case.

lets say a laptop averages 50W (and i reckon they average quite a bit lower
than that unless everyones gaming, don't forget if batteries are banned then
there won't be battery charging to worry about) and 50% of the users on a 3
class configures A380 are using them (again i think this many laptop users
would be rare). Thats a total of 27.5KW. I wouldn't think thats all that
much for a plane of that size. Also a laptop user is unlikely to be using
the in flight entertainment which i'd think could easilly be drawing as much
as a laptop.




2006\08\16@105930 by olin piclist

face picon face
Tamas Rudnai wrote:
>> Full power over ethernet means the switch has to source about 15(?)
>> watts per port.
>
> I suppose that's a gigabit one?

No just plain old power over ethernet, which many modern switches are
capable of.  I just checked, and if the switchs grants the highest power
level, a device can count on just about 13W, so 15W budget on the switch
side is probably a little too conservative.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2006\08\16@130320 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face

On Aug 16, 2006, at 1:05 AM, William Chops Westfield wrote:

>> std 110 outlet at each seat would help a lot.
>>
> Doesn't scale very well.  A modern airliner has a couple hundred
> seats...  I got asked about some issues on the
> remote controlled power supply for our new ethernet switch.
> 8700 watts.  Presumably that's about 20W each for several hundred
> ethernet ports (PoE), plus a thousand watts or so for the switch
> itself.  Sigh.

For any airline flying internationally, "110" isn't the standard  
everywhere, so that'd be silly anyway.

But this website seems to think that some airline already does it...
http://www.seatguru.com/articles/in-seat_laptop_power.php

Looks like the most popular is 15VDC.

--
Nate Duehr
nateSTOPspamspamspam_OUTnatetech.com



2006\08\16@151507 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Tony Smith wrote:

> 20 years jail for importing 4kg of marijuana into Indonesia, a few months
> before the 'camel head' incident.  She claimed that the baggage handlers
> planted the drugs, which was denied by all and sundry - "what, they'd
> never do that, honest as the day is long, those chaps".  

What I always wonder about is how lightly people take it these days when
traveling to places with a less than reliable legal system. I mean...
people know how things are in many places, yet they go there for a two
weeks resort vacation?!?

Gerhard

2006\08\16@152723 by John Ferrell

face picon face
I observed a pair of LiPo packs that were discharged too fast "plump up" due
to heat buildup at the US AMA Precision Aerobatics contest this year. As an
official I suggested the contestant remove them from the aircraft and place
them a distance away from us frail humans as well. He concurred and
carefully and quickly carried them away by the leads.

The application runs at about 40 volts and 60+ amps...

John Ferrell    W8CCW
"My Competition is not my enemy"
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2006\08\16@171914 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Aug 16, 2006, at 7:05 AM, Howard Winter wrote:

>
> Why on Earth would an ethernet switch need a kilowatt?

Power-hungry asics, tcams, and gbit phys ?  I don't know the
exact number for the switch power consumption; I'm just guessing.
>
> Is it actually running hundreds of ports in one device?
>
Yes.  In one rackmount box, anyway.  The internal interconnects
may be such that identifying a single "device" is difficult.

http://www/en/US/products/hw/switches/ps708/index.html

    The Catalyst 6500 Series currently supports up to 288
    Class 3 (15.4W) Power over Ethernet (PoE) devices, plus
    up to 1152 10/100-Mbps, 576 10/100/1000-Mbps, or 32 10-Gbps
    Ethernet ports in a single chassis, and system scalability
    up to 720 Gbps, providing 40 Gbps/slot (half-duplex).
    Additional choices include 3, 4, 6, 9, and 13-slot chassis
    options and several WAN interface module options.

BillW

2006\08\16@221811 by Randy Glenn

picon face
You might want to replace the "http://www/" with
"http://www.cisco.com/". Not all of us are on the inside of their
network :)

On 8/16/06, William Chops Westfield <spamBeGonewestfwSTOPspamspamEraseMEmac.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\08\17@120903 by Dave Lag

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Randy Glenn wrote:
> You might want to replace the "http://www/" with
> "http://www.cisco.com/". Not all of us are on the inside of their
> network :)
>
I've spent some time with their account managers- I don't think they are
aware of this :) :)


2006\08\18@144952 by David VanHorn

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On 8/16/06, John Ferrell <KILLspamjohnferrellspamBeGonespamearthlink.net> wrote:
>
> I observed a pair of LiPo packs that were discharged too fast "plump up"
> due
> to heat buildup at the US AMA Precision Aerobatics contest this year. As
> an
> official I suggested the contestant remove them from the aircraft and
> place
> them a distance away from us frail humans as well. He concurred and
> carefully and quickly carried them away by the leads.


Geez.. Holler when you're gonna be in town, will ya!?
KC6ETE here, on 146.73- 146.85- 441.9+


'[EE]: Lithium Ion Batteries.. I told Ya So'
2006\09\07@100500 by alan smith
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OK...so whats the BEST next choice for power density, etc....if Lithium Ion are not the best....NiMHy ?

               
---------------------------------
Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com.  Check it out.

2006\09\07@114337 by John Ferrell

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The last I heard the satellites are still using NiCads....
NiMh beats them in both power density & cost though.

John Ferrell    W8CCW
"My Competition is not my enemy"
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2006\09\07@120653 by William Chops Westfield

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On Sep 7, 2006, at 7:04 AM, alan smith wrote:

> so whats the BEST next choice for power density, etc...

Depends on what all "etc" includes, I'm afraid.  NiMH is next
in power density, but it's harder to detect end-of-charge and
doesn't have the shelf-life of Li-ion (which to ME is a HUGE
advantage for Li-ion!)

There are the "safer" Li-ion styles (iron phosphate instead of
cobalt oxide, IIRC.  "Saphion" is one brand.)  They have lower
voltage and lower AH capacity than "regular", but I think they're
still ahead of NiMH, especially on a per-gram basis.

BillW

2006\09\07@134245 by Bob Axtell

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Yes. Some variants of NiMH are very strong (3000maH in 'AA' size, for
example). They have
improved monthly since Lithium Ion was released. There have been few (if
any) improvements
in Li-Ion during that same period.

To use NiMH instead of Li-Ion would require cellphone redesigns all over
the world, and a SLIGHT
increase in weight- but the safety benefits are major.

I expect an announcement stopping the carrying of Li-XXX cellphones on
airplanes within 6 months;
watch for it.  

--Bob

alan smith wrote:
> OK...so whats the BEST next choice for power density, etc....if Lithium Ion are not the best....NiMHy ?
>
>                  
> ---------------------------------
> Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com.  Check it out.
>  

2006\09\07@141313 by David VanHorn

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>
> To use NiMH instead of Li-Ion would require cellphone redesigns all over
> the world, and a SLIGHT increase in weight- but the safety benefits are
> major.



Well.. At least the boiling electrolyte blasting out the end of the cell
isn't flammable.  Just very caustic.

2006\09\07@150521 by Bob Axtell

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David VanHorn wrote:
>> To use NiMH instead of Li-Ion would require cellphone redesigns all over
>> the world, and a SLIGHT increase in weight- but the safety benefits are
>> major.
>>    
>
>
>
> Well.. At least the boiling electrolyte blasting out the end of the cell
> isn't flammable.  Just very caustic.
>  
Yep.

2006\09\07@180839 by Matt Pobursky

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face
On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 10:42:29 -0700, Bob Axtell wrote:
> I expect an announcement stopping the carrying of Li-XXX cellphones
> on airplanes within 6 months; watch for it.

And lappy's, PDA's, MP3 players, portable DVD players... all of which
pretty much use Li-Ion or Li-Poly batteries these days.

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems


2006\09\07@182123 by David VanHorn

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I just saw an article in the news where prisoners had been found with cell
phones inserted rectally.. Boy I shudder at the thought, in so many ways.

2006\09\07@214052 by Howard Winter

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Dave,

On Thu, 7 Sep 2006 18:21:18 -0400, David VanHorn wrote:

> I just saw an article in the news where prisoners had been found with cell
> phones inserted rectally.. Boy I shudder at the thought, in so many ways.

Well they were "cell" phones, after all!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\09\08@074241 by olin piclist

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David VanHorn wrote:
> I just saw an article in the news where prisoners had been found with
> cell phones inserted rectally..

Geesh, isn't cell phone reception bad enough already?

They must have learned that from a salesman.  They always seem to be on a
cell phone talking out their ass.

Imagine being in a parole hearing and your butt starts ringing.

Did they set their ring tones to make fart sounds?

At least we know politicians can't do this.  There's no room with the brick
already up there.

Charging the phone could be a real pain in the butt.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2006\09\08@084451 by Russell McMahon

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> Geesh, ...

Failed the humo[u]r test.
Try hard quotient too high.
Good try though.
Con D for effort.
Next please ...


       RM

2006\09\08@100234 by alan smith

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OK..lets look at it this way.  I have a new product to design.  Its not really a portable device like a cell phone, more of  laptop but much less power requirements.  Balancing costs vs safety vs what the product manager wants or needs......should I attempt to convince them that NiMH is the best way to go?  Ive taken over this from a now departed engineer so there is some history that I am not really privy to, but I did make mention that charging Li-Ion is a tricky thing to do and they all said...yes yes we've been made aware of....etc.  They also want fast charging of the cells if possible.

Bob Axtell <EraseMEengineerspamEraseMEneomailbox.com> wrote: Yes. Some variants of NiMH are very strong (3000maH in 'AA' size, for
example). They have
improved monthly since Lithium Ion was released. There have been few (if
any) improvements
in Li-Ion during that same period.

To use NiMH instead of Li-Ion would require cellphone redesigns all over
the world, and a SLIGHT
increase in weight- but the safety benefits are major.



alan smith wrote:
> OK...so whats the BEST next choice for power density, etc....if Lithium Ion are not the best....NiMHy ?
>
>    
> ---------------------------------
> Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com.  Check it out.
>  

2006\09\08@102607 by olin piclist

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Russell McMahon wrote:
> Failed the humo[u]r test.
> Try hard quotient too high.
> Good try though.
> Con D for effort.
> Next please ...

Oh well, you can't please (entertain) all the people all the time.

Strange though as I never got my message back from the list.  I was
wondering whether I was having some sort of email problem with the PIClist
again.  Hmm, maybe I am actually.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2006\09\08@111133 by David VanHorn

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...yes yes we've been made aware of....etc.  They also want fast charging
> of the cells if possible.


1C charging is best actually,  The window is 0.5C to 2C, outside that the
termination events get fuzzy pretty fast.

2006\09\08@124825 by Bob Axtell

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alan smith wrote:
> OK..lets look at it this way.  I have a new product to design.  Its not really a portable device like a cell phone, more of  laptop but much less power requirements.  Balancing costs vs safety vs what the product manager wants or needs......should I attempt to convince them that NiMH is the best way to go?  Ive taken over this from a now departed engineer so there is some history that I am not really privy to, but I did make mention that charging Li-Ion is a tricky thing to do and they all said...yes yes we've been made aware of....etc.  They also want fast charging of the cells if possible.
>  
There's more to this than meets the eye. Some battery pack makers will
insist that the chargers to be used meet engineering standards. There
are several NiMH charger chips that qualify well; LT has several.

I suggest that your redesign include the charger as part of the product;
that precludes the user putting a raw wallwart on it and blowing it up.
NiMH's fast charge quite well, but temperature MUST be monitored. Most
chargers handle this properly. The switching type are particularly nice,
because they eliminate charger pass-element heat losses.

The NiMH knee is no more complex to handle than the Li-Ion knee (dip at
end-of-charge point).

BTW, I think I have seen some reputable firms offering 3300mAH 'AA'
cells. Sanyo and Sony have very good cells.

--Bob

{Quote hidden}

2006\09\08@131745 by Tony Smith

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> Russell McMahon wrote:
> > Failed the humo[u]r test.
> > Try hard quotient too high.
> > Good try though.
> > Con D for effort.
> > Next please ...
>
> Oh well, you can't please (entertain) all the people all the time.


Tough crowd.  And there's always a heckler, no matter where you go.

Tony

2006\09\08@134042 by David VanHorn

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>
>
> BTW, I think I have seen some reputable firms offering 3300mAH 'AA'
> cells. Sanyo and Sony have very good cells.


Panasonic as well, has good cells and good data.
GP has good cells, and less good data.

The galaxy power web site used to have a lot of gleanable info, but they're
gone.   Cadex has lots of gleanable data.

2006\09\08@142246 by Bob Axtell

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David VanHorn wrote:
>> BTW, I think I have seen some reputable firms offering 3300mAH 'AA'
>> cells. Sanyo and Sony have very good cells.
>>    
>
>
> Panasonic as well, has good cells and good data.
> GP has good cells, and less good data.
>
> The galaxy power web site used to have a lot of gleanable info, but they're
> gone.   Cadex has lots of gleanable data.
>  
Yes.

What I am saying... maybe too quietly... is that while Li-Ion is the
superior technology, Li-Ion technology
is less forgiving than NiMH, and manufacturing errors / inferior
products create some intolerable safety
problems. I think everyone assumed that China would recognize the
seriousness of the problem and stop
the false labelling. The hoaxers are so good that the hoaxed cells
cannot be distinguished from the genuine
ones.

As engineers, sometimes we have to look farther to protect our
respective clients. This is one of those times.

--Bob

2006\09\08@201408 by William Chops Westfield

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>> I think I have seen some reputable firms offering 3300mAH 'AA'
>> cells. Sanyo and Sony have very good cells.

Really?  Got a manufacturer web site and spec sheet?  Another
forum recently expressed the opinion that anything labeled
more than 2700mAH was being very optimistic and perhaps was
a counterfeit.  (One of the things that happens with higher
quality manufacturers is that the actual energy delivery matches
the spec sheets more closely...)

BillW

2006\09\08@212321 by Bob Axtell

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William Chops Westfield wrote:
>>> I think I have seen some reputable firms offering 3300mAH 'AA'
>>> cells. Sanyo and Sony have very good cells.
>>>      
>
> Really?  Got a manufacturer web site and spec sheet?  Another
> forum recently expressed the opinion that anything labeled
> more than 2700mAH was being very optimistic and perhaps was
> a counterfeit.  (One of the things that happens with higher
> quality manufacturers is that the actual energy delivery matches
> the spec sheets more closely...)
>
> BillW
>  
Understandable. I think I saw it from a house that packages cells into
packs. I'll look around.

--Bob

2006\09\08@225906 by Zik Saleeba

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Here's the story with an amazing x-ray photo:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/phones--pdas/pass-the-phone-amigo/2006/09/09/1157222362436.html

Cheers,
Zik

On 9/8/06, David VanHorn <spamBeGonedvanhornspamKILLspammicrobrix.com> wrote:
> I just saw an article in the news where prisoners had been found with cell
> phones inserted rectally.. Boy I shudder at the thought, in so many ways.

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