Searching \ for '[EE]: Laptop battery fading' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/power/batterys.htm?key=battery
Search entire site for: 'Laptop battery fading'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[EE]: Laptop battery fading'
2002\06\01@065422 by Pic Dude

flavicon
face
Between my 2 main batteries, and 1 aux battery, I used to get over
8 total hours of laptop usage, but that's down to less than 1 hour
nowadays, as the battery life is fading.  I once invested some time
in manually fully discharging and fully recharging one battery about
5 times, and it pick up a lot of life, but again it's fading.  Used to do
that with model airplane nicads, but it apparently worked for these
Li-Ion's.

Discharging involved leaving the laptop on until it warns of battery
failure and then puts itself to sleep, then I'd re-awaken it and let
it drain some more.  At some point, it just died.  Then I would put
it back to charge fully.  Needless to say, I didn't like letting the OS
die un-gracefully.

There's got to be a better way -- is there some form of battery
cycler that I can purchase or build that will work for these (IBM
Thinkpad 600x) batteries?

Cheers,
-Neil.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\06\01@080428 by Jinx

face picon face
> There's got to be a better way -- is there some form of battery
> cycler that I can purchase or build that will work for these (IBM
> Thinkpad 600x) batteries?

I don't know if this will work with Li batteries (I don't know the
failure mechanism of them), but I've just resurrected the NiCd
battery pack for my camcorder. It had suddenly plummeted
from a couple of hours to a few minutes usage time. The pack
had to be cut open and then individual cells are zapped with
a charged capacitor (10000uF @ 20V) to punch through the
dendrite barrier. Often it's just one cell going funny that stops a
pack charging. Works fine on cordless drill and Dustbuster
packs too, and worth a go considering the price of a new one.
There are commercial zappers around that use a neon/strobe
type arrangement, but that's simply a convenient means to
an end

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\06\01@114653 by Rick C.

flavicon
face
Discharging Li-Ion's deeply (to zero) is not necessary and will be too much
of a cycle and you could be reverse charging a weaker cell. A slow discharge
using a resistive load such as a lamp at a current of around 5% of normal
discharge will suffice with NiCad or NiMh but not Li-Ion. It is not necessary
to cycle Li-Ion because they don't have the so-called "memory" effect.(see
links)

www4.tomshardware.com/mobile/01q1/010126/notebooks-08.html
http://www.batteryoutlet.com/comps.htm

Rick


Pic Dude wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\06\01@115225 by Jim

flavicon
face
I'll second the successful zapping technique as
used on NiCds ...

I just brought back to life 2 cells from a
3 cell stack in a cordless electric screwdriver
by zapping *individually* the cells that would
not take a charge - even an attepmt at a brief
HEAVY charge (which I have had postitive results
with at times).

Tool of choice was a "Sprague Powerlytic" 76,000 uF
cap rated at 40 V *but* only charged to 20 V for the
purposes of this resurrection attempt.

I also immediately apply nominal charging current
right after the zap - usually by using a suitable
current limiting resistor in series with the 20 V
charging supply. This resistor also serves to
limit the charging current of the cap when the
20 V supply is turned-up.

Jim


{Original Message removed}

2002\06\01@182051 by Jinx
face picon face
> I also immediately apply nominal charging current
> right after the zap - usually by using a suitable
> current limiting resistor in series with the 20 V
> charging supply. This resistor also serves to
> limit the charging current of the cap when the
> 20 V supply is turned-up.

An alternative to zapping is that you can apply a high
(eg 15V) voltage to the cell while keeping a very close
eye on a voltmeter. The cell will sit there for a short while,
perhaps a few seconds, perhaps a minute, soaking it up
until the voltage across it will rise suddenly. That's a good
time to take the 15V away very quickly;-)  Hopefully the
cell should take a normal charge after that. If this technique
doesn't work, zap it

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\06\01@183245 by Tal Bejerano - AMC

flavicon
face
I didn't sew the original post, but in my country there is some factories
that open the pack in a special way and replace the dead cells.
I did it 3 year ago with electric drill and the batteries work very good
until now.

Regards

Tal Bejerano
AMC - ISRAEL


{Original Message removed}

2002\06\01@185646 by Jinx

face picon face
> I didn't sew the original post, but in my country there is
> some factories that open the pack in a special way and
> replace the dead cells. I did it 3 year ago with electric
> drill and the batteries work very good until now.

My nephew was given an old Konica camcorder, partly
I think because the battery was poked. The replacement
was an outrageous price, so I picked up some cheap NiCd
AAs. Saved > $100, and the only giveaway is an epoxy
glue line along the battery case. I think someone around
Auckland takes old power tools and reconditions the
battery packs - when you can pick up a new cordless drill
for NZ$50, tossing out the old one or flicking it off for $10
(if you're lucky) is a no-fuss option for your average DIYer
or tradesman

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\06\01@191116 by Tal Bejerano - AMC

flavicon
face
in addition  to what Jinx replied let me add my private case, new original
battery pack cost about 120Us$, I pay for *BETTER* batteries Ni-metal
instead of the original "Makita" Nicad pack only 25Us$!!!
120Us$ is about 65% of the tool cost. figure it out....
I don't want to use bad language...but think what I thought about Makita
when they ask for this outrageous price....

Regards

Tal Bejerano
AMC - ISRAEL


{Original Message removed}

2002\06\01@192812 by Jim

flavicon
face
   "An alternative to zapping is that you can apply
    a high (eg 15V) voltage to the cell while
    keeping a very close eye on a voltmeter."

Given Ohms Law - I think you can count on quite a
bit of something called 'current' to flow -

- this isn't like trying to charge a dead, stone
cold Lead-Acid cell ...

I'm not going to recommend nor try this approach.

Jim


{Original Message removed}

2002\06\01@193239 by Jinx

face picon face
> I don't want to use bad language...but think what I thought
>  about Makita when they ask for this outrageous price....

Perhaps it's like that deal with printers - you can get a
very reasonable printer for good $$$, but they get you
on the ink cartridges (and especially now that cartridges
have built-in smarts that defeat refilling). Maybe it's just as
simple as economy of scale, although you'd have to wonder
about the profit margin on a $49.95 drill. I did pick up some
at a local builder's merchants when they had a sale, which
I have to say is against my normal practise of buying the best
tools I can afford - but $50 vs $250 is very very tempting

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\06\01@193819 by Jinx

face picon face
>     "An alternative to zapping is that you can apply
>      a high (eg 15V) voltage to the cell while
>      keeping a very close eye on a voltmeter."

> I'm not going to recommend nor try this approach

I understand your caveat. It does work but you DO NOT
wander off and make a cuppa or answer the phone.
Immediately the voltage starts to rise you disconnect
the 15V. Zapping is a safer option

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\06\01@200325 by Jinx

face picon face
>     "An alternative to zapping is that you can apply
>      a high (eg 15V) voltage to the cell while
>      keeping a very close eye on a voltmeter."
>
> Given Ohms Law - I think you can count on quite a
> bit of something called 'current' to flow -
>
> - this isn't like trying to charge a dead, stone
> cold Lead-Acid cell ...
>
> I'm not going to recommend nor try this approach.

I should add that "suddenly" is actually over about 3-4
seconds. You can quite easily disconnect the high voltage
when the voltmeter reads 1.5V or less. Maybe you don't
have a big cap lying around, but you do have a car battery.

Take a little care and no harm will be done, like so many
other things in life (as a non-EE example I'm sick and tired
of people who don't look where they are going - walking is
not inherently dangerous but being careless on the road
or the pavement is)

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\06\01@200334 by Jim

flavicon
face
   "Immediately the voltage starts to rise
    you disconnect the 15V."

'splain to me how this works again - minding
Ohm's Law?

See - the 'shorts' these cells develop still
show some resistivety (my expereince) and indeed
show some voltage drop when a charging current
is 'forced' into them ... an attempt to 'flow'
whatever current a power supply set for 15 volts
will, I think, given my experience, IMMEDIATLY
show a voltage in excess of 1.5 V with a current
well over an Ampere or two - in fact, at the limit of
the supply I might add!

This limited-current (be it 2, 3 or 4 Amps) still
won't approach what the 'Cap Method' is capable
of and is, IMO, dangerous insofar as the potential
for explosion of the cell under such conditions ...

The Cap Method provides a fairly controlled zap
(in both the amount of energy to be used AND the
peak currents) in contrast to something a human
being could guage by 'dead reckoning' and simple
observation. I don't believe this is a case where
I want a "Human in the Loop" ...

Jim



{Original Message removed}

2002\06\01@205922 by Jinx

face picon face
>     "Immediately the voltage starts to rise
>      you disconnect the 15V."
>
> 'splain to me how this works again - minding
> Ohm's Law?

I agree that zapping is more applicable in general - it may
take several goes but should work eventually, and this is
my preferred method. My experience with the brute force
voltage method is that you can do this with a cell that shows
0.00 or thereabouts after normal charging has been tried. It
will take several seconds to break down the dendrites. Limiting
the current available will minimise risk, but there has to be
enough to punch through that barrier. As mentioned in the other
post, this is an alternative to zapping, as very large caps
probably aren't in many people's spare parts department

Don't get the idea that I regard this as some Extreme Games
event - if you don't watch what you're doing you could come
unstuck

> - this isn't like trying to charge a dead, stone
> cold Lead-Acid cell ...

Aren't dead Pb batteries dead forever ? I've always been
led to believe that significant sulphate formation is irreversible,
and leaving Pb batteries discharged for any length of time
is unwise

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\06\01@212450 by Jim

flavicon
face
  "Aren't dead Pb batteries dead forever ?"

Lead-Acid batteries or gel-cells?

Lead-Acids, when dead, don't conduct and then something
in excess of the 'normal' is required to begin the process
of getting something back into 'the water' ... I've seen
this more than just a few times in my life, and, no, it's
not good for the battery ...

The times I've done this the battery was 'killed' over-
night by the *usual* means!

Jim

PS. I have used the "crudely pulsed high current"
technique before - I found I get the best results (and
only use the) 'Cap Method' nowadays using my specially
set-up 76,000 uF 40 V "Srague Powerlytic" whose sole
duty in life now is to zap NiCds back into 'productive
behavior' ...


{Original Message removed}

2002\06\01@221414 by Jinx

face picon face
>    "Aren't dead Pb batteries dead forever ?"
>
> Lead-Acid batteries or gel-cells?

> Lead-Acids, when dead, don't conduct and then something
> in excess of the 'normal' is required to begin the process
> of getting something back into 'the water' ... I've seen
> this more than just a few times in my life, and, no, it's
> not good for the battery ...

http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq.htm

Take a look at Section 16 - "How can I revive a sulphated
battery ?". I'd say it would be impossible to do this with a
gel cell

btw, when in town the other day I picked up gel cells at
an alarm supplier (Intek in Normanby Rd for anyone in
Auckland - used to be Alexander Batteries then Newsec)
for 1/4 the price of the local retailer (DSE). If I had a $64
battery I'd probably try to revive it somehow. A $16 battery ?
Nah, bin it (properly of course)

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\06\01@233037 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
What do you mean?  If I put a good regulated 15V across a battery pack
I'd better dang well get 15V.  When will the voltage rise?

Either you're saying put a constant current across the battery (and you
don't tell us what that current is) or you're saying put an unregulated
15V and small amperage transformer based supply across the battery (in
which case you're over speccing the transformer and you'll destroy that
in the process)

Perhaps you meant put 15V across it and measure the current (waiting for
the current to suddenly go up)?

-Adam

Jinx wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\06\02@094354 by Jim

flavicon
face
Jinx, I'm not talking death due to sulphation
here (something which apparently takes *time* to
occur as opposed to a Lead-Acid cell simply being
discharged overnight) but rather the re-charge
charactertistics of a standard Lead-Acid cell/battery.

You will find that the cell impedance goes UP on a
dead lead-acid cell - THAT's my point.

It's a matter of 'range and domain' as far as what I'm
discussing here Jinx - I'm not addressing sulphation
or gel-cells but rather the re-charge characteristics
of Lead-Acid cell ...

Jim

{Original Message removed}

2002\06\03@091517 by Rex Byrns

flavicon
face
Hi Neil,

Most laptops have an option in the bios the synchronize the battery level
indicator.  You put the pc in this mode and it automatically drains the
battery and then recharges it, noting the time and current levels of the
recharge.

P.S. - If you have added a palmtop and installed active sync, there is a bug
that will keep your recharger from working properly on many laptops.  Had a
vendor recently who bought 2 or 3 batteries before he found this out.

> {Original Message removed}

2002\06\03@092350 by Rex Byrns

flavicon
face
I have had success using this method as well.  I dont use charge caps, I
just drain the nicad then give it a quick zap from a large UPS battery that
I keep around.  Be careful to move quickly so as not to let the zap wire
fuse to the battery and cause small explosion hazard.  This worked great on
the little Black and Decker stick battery things.


> {Original Message removed}

2002\06\03@115640 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Sat, 1 Jun 2002, Jim wrote:

>    "Immediately the voltage starts to rise
>     you disconnect the 15V."
>
>'splain to me how this works again - minding
>Ohm's Law?

;-) NZ benchtop power supplies have current limiting (the foldback kind).
Jinx also probably uses thin crocodile wires to connect the cell. <g>

Peter

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2002\06\03@115654 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Jinx wrote:

>> I don't want to use bad language...but think what I thought
>>  about Makita when they ask for this outrageous price....
>
>Perhaps it's like that deal with printers - you can get a
>very reasonable printer for good $$$, but they get you
>on the ink cartridges (and especially now that cartridges
>have built-in smarts that defeat refilling). Maybe it's just as
>simple as economy of scale, although you'd have to wonder
>about the profit margin on a $49.95 drill. I did pick up some
>at a local builder's merchants when they had a sale, which
>I have to say is against my normal practise of buying the best
>tools I can afford - but $50 vs $250 is very very tempting

If the drill is manufactured and assembled in a certain country the profit
may be some 30% for the reseller, 30% for the importer and the rest to the
manufacturer, as the production cost (including materials and packing and
inland shipping) is in the $10 range (at most).

Peter

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2002\06\03@131609 by Brandon Fosdick

flavicon
face
Pic Dude wrote:
>
> Between my 2 main batteries, and 1 aux battery, I used to get over
> 8 total hours of laptop usage, but that's down to less than 1 hour
> nowadays, as the battery life is fading.  I once invested some time
> in manually fully discharging and fully recharging one battery about
> 5 times, and it pick up a lot of life, but again it's fading.  Used to do
> that with model airplane nicads, but it apparently worked for these
> Li-Ion's.
>
> Discharging involved leaving the laptop on until it warns of battery
> failure and then puts itself to sleep, then I'd re-awaken it and let
> it drain some more.  At some point, it just died.  Then I would put
> it back to charge fully.  Needless to say, I didn't like letting the OS
> die un-gracefully.
>
> There's got to be a better way -- is there some form of battery
> cycler that I can purchase or build that will work for these (IBM
> Thinkpad 600x) batteries?

I have the same problem, in fact lots of people with a Thinkpad 600 have the
same problem. The packs are just bad and unless the machine is still under
warranty IBM doesn't care. You can find refurbished batteries on ebay for about
half price (around US$100), but even they die eventually.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2002\06\03@191108 by Jinx

face picon face
> If the drill is manufactured and assembled in a certain country
> the profit may be some 30% for the reseller, 30% for the
> importer and the rest to the manufacturer, as the production
> cost (including materials and packing and inland shipping)
> is in the $10 range (at most)

I've no doubt you're absolutely correct - and don't forget those
dollar-a-day wages. That's a whole can of worms I wouldn't
want to open here

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2002\06\03@192135 by Jim

flavicon
face
Isn't that guy (or gal) probably glad to HAVE that job?

And you would want to abolish it?

Jim

PS. Are those worms to be roasted, toasted or ingested live?

{Original Message removed}

2002\06\04@192736 by Pic Dude

flavicon
face
Are suggesting this for Li-Ion or Nicad batteries?
-Neil.



-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[spam_OUTPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Jinx
Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 6:38 PM
To: .....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [EE]: Laptop battery fading


>     "An alternative to zapping is that you can apply
>      a high (eg 15V) voltage to the cell while
>      keeping a very close eye on a voltmeter."

> I'm not going to recommend nor try this approach

I understand your caveat. It does work but you DO NOT
wander off and make a cuppa or answer the phone.
Immediately the voltage starts to rise you disconnect
the 15V. Zapping is a safer option

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email listservspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\06\04@193645 by Jinx

face picon face
> Are suggesting this for Li-Ion or Nicad batteries?

NiCad I know it works for. The zapping is to break through
the insulating dendrites that stop the NiCad charging. Li have
a different chemistry that may/probably needs something else
to get them back to life

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email .....listservKILLspamspam.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\06\04@202244 by Jim

flavicon
face
NiCd cells.

Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pic Dude" <EraseMEpicdudespam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTAVN-TECH.COM>
To: <PICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: [EE]: Laptop battery fading


> Are suggesting this for Li-Ion or Nicad batteries?
> -Neil.
>
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2002\06\05@015411 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Jim wrote:

>Isn't that guy (or gal) probably glad to HAVE that job?
>
>And you would want to abolish it?
>
>Jim
>
>PS. Are those worms to be roasted, toasted or ingested live?

Do you mean the strolling rice or the slithering pasta ?

Peter

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
@spam@piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu


2002\06\05@035132 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Jim wrote:

>Isn't that guy (or gal) probably glad to HAVE that job?
>
>And you would want to abolish it?

It depends. Evil tongues say that there are no strikes in that country
because if you stand up it's your last time or you get a great job in
construction. Apparently they never fire anyone from those jobs. But of
course those must be just evil tongues.

Peter

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
KILLspampiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu


2002\06\05@070420 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> > Are suggesting this for Li-Ion or Nicad batteries?
>
> NiCad I know it works for. The zapping is to break through
> the insulating dendrites that stop the NiCad charging. Li have
> a different chemistry that may/probably needs something else
> to get them back to life

Lithium batteries also have the nasty habit of getting hot and catching on
fire when you abuse them.  NiCd batteries are much nicer in that they only
expolde carcinogens in your face.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu


2002\06\05@105843 by Jim

flavicon
face
Why, my good little socialist friend -

- do you too have no historical perspective
like my dear friend Russel?

Jim

{Original Message removed}

2002\06\05@164051 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, Jim wrote:

>Why, my good little socialist friend -

Ha. That was funny. Me, socialist. Ha. I'll have to tell this the guys at
work.

>- do you too have no historical perspective
>like my dear friend Russel?

Actually I do have a historical perspective and I was exposed to socialism
against my will and I am one of those who voted with their feet and never
looked back.

I think that you misunderstood what I was saying.

My utopian 'system' would preclude totalitarian countries where market
forces as they are known and accepted do not function due to party policy,
tribe laws, religious beliefs, racial discrimination, or whatever else,
from participating in the 'open', free world economy, on equal terms with
other players. Your country has waged and still does wage active war(s)
against several such countries. I guess I do not have to dot the I's for
you.

A strike is an extreme manifestation of organized labor. It was given as
an example. In most normally functioning places strikes are rare as
discontent employees can get up and leave almost at will (within economic
and legal constraints which are somewhat acceptable). Obviously this is
not the way it works in a country where you would starve immediately when
doing this, assuming no-one would try to make you toe the line on top of
that and worse. This is not your idea of freedom I hope.

After all, a certain small island off your coasts shares 95% of the
ideology and political system of the other country often implied in this
thread and yet you buy nothing from it etc. What makes the difference
between them ? If the small island would occupy USA you would have to
organise a nation-wide search to locate the invading forces in order to be
able to surrender to them (for being so few among so many). A totally
different situation exists with the other large implied country. So what
makes the difference ? Miles ? Nukes ? Remember what happened when someone
shipped nukes to the small island as a gift ? Size matters ? Like to be
officially buddies with 20% of the world population ?

Lifetime total employment with no risk of ever being fired was granted to
all concentration camp inmates too, you know. And the goods they produced
were used far away from the camps, by normal people who often did not
know where they came from. I do not imply a direct parallel with the
countries quoted but as I said I have personal experience in the domain
and I have strong opinions on the subject. Not socialist opinions. Not at
all socialist I would say.

Peter

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonespammitvma.mit.edu


2002\06\06@081725 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> >Why, my good little socialist friend -
>
> blah, blah, blah...

Enough already!  This doesn't belong under the EE topic.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\06\06@104314 by Jim

flavicon
face
Ahem ... I *did* change it to OT at one point ...

Jim


----- Original Message -----
From: "Olin Lathrop" <TakeThisOuTolin_piclistEraseMEspamspam_OUTEMBEDINC.COM>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: [EE]: Laptop battery fading


> > >Why, my good little socialist friend -
> >
> > blah, blah, blah...
>
> Enough already!  This doesn't belong under the EE topic.
>
>

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\06\06@220426 by Michael Johnston

flavicon
face
AMEN BROTHER
----- Original Message -----
From: "Olin Lathrop" <olin_piclistEraseMEspam.....EMBEDINC.COM>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: [EE]: Laptop battery fading


{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2002 , 2003 only
- Today
- New search...