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'[EE]: Is a 20Mhz Oscilliscope any good?'
2003\05\19@002329 by john chung

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I am currently hunting an oscilloscope. I am currently doing PIC programming and hopefully some audio projects in the future. In my country a
tektronics oscilloscope cost around USD 250.00 more than in US. The model that I am referring to is Tektronics TS 1000.

I have just received a price list for analog oscilloscopes manufactured by Iwatsu. The range start from 20 MHz to 100 MHz. I can afford the 20 MHz and
40 MHz only. The 100 MHz is a bit too much.

The main question is that:
1) should I just wait until i can buy a 100 MHz oscilloscope(which is expensive). I may want to do so some computer interfacing project in the future.

2) is analog oscilloscope any good?
3) any opinions on Iwatsu?

I am really just interesting in obtaining an oscilloscope for my projects ranging from PIC,audio,computer interfacing and (tv repair??).

Thanks for your advise and time.

Regards,
John

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2003\05\19@040511 by Nigel Orr

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> I have just received a price list for analog oscilloscopes
> manufactured by Iwatsu. The range start from 20 MHz to 100
> MHz. I can afford the 20 MHz and
> 40 MHz only. The 100 MHz is a bit too much.

When my previous oscilloscope died, I took the advice I've seen here before
and looked on ebay for a replacement.

After a few failed auctions, I got a dual channel Tek 453A 60MHz scope, a
few decades old, for under 100UKP including carriage, about half of what I
would have paid for a new single channel 20MHz scope made by some company
I'd never heard of before.

The Tek service manuals are on the net, and I expect it to last somewhat
longer than my previous one, even if I never use the circuit diagrams to
fix it!  It's also got a much sharper trace and better triggering
facilities than my previous 'scope.

It's certainly worth a look, there was no shortage of well known test
instruments when I was looking, and, being second hand, a quick search on
google groups should give you an idea if a given make and model is
considered to be reliable.

Nigel
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2003\05\19@040722 by

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Hi.
Are you only looking at new scopes ?
I bought a used HP 54602B (2 chan, 150 Mhz)
for 350 EUR (about $400 USD) a couple of
month ago. Works perfectly...

Jan-Erik.
PS.
Just a tip, use your ENTER key now and then to keep
your lines below about 70 chars in lenght...
DS.



john chung wrote :
> I have just received a price list for analog
> oscilloscopes manufactured by Iwatsu. The range
> start from 20 MHz to 100 MHz. I can afford the
> 20 MHz and 40 MHz only. The 100 MHz is a bit too much.

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2003\05\19@044713 by john chung

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Jan-erik Söderholm (QAC) wrote:

> Hi.
> Are you only looking at new scopes ?

  Yeap, I am looking at new scopes. I find that new scopes are
outttt of hobbyist range in terms of $$$.


>
> I bought a used HP 54602B (2 chan, 150 Mhz)
> for 350 EUR (about $400 USD) a couple of
> month ago. Works perfectly...
>

  I am quite tempted in buying second hand scopes for
myself.....

{Quote hidden}

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2003\05\19@193031 by Herbert Graf

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{Quote hidden}

       Personally I'd strongly consider EBay, VERY good deals on scopes can be
found there. TTYL

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2003\05\19@193451 by David VanHorn

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>
>> 2) is analog oscilloscope any good?
>> 3) any opinions on Iwatsu?

We had an Iwatsu in the lab once, couldn't get anyone to use it.

Analog's fine, as long as you're dealing with repetitive signals.
If it's one-shot, you really need a DSO or logic analyzer.

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2003\05\19@214950 by Matt Pobursky

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> > > 2) is analog oscilloscope any good?
> > > 3) any opinions on Iwatsu?


> We had an Iwatsu in the lab once, couldn't get anyone to use it.


> Analog's fine, as long as you're dealing with repetitive signals.
> If it's one-shot, you really need a DSO or logic analyzer.

By far the most favorite/valuable piece of test equipment in my lab is the HP (Agilent) 54645D Mixed Signal 'scope I bought in 1997. It cost me ~$5000 (out of my own pocket even!) and I wouldn't trade it for anything for general purpose microcontroller development work. I was skeptical that any piece of equipment would be worth that much to me until I laid my hands on one at the '97 Microchip Masters conference (HP was doing a class on them).

Having two 100 MHz analog channels AND 16 logic analyzer channels with deep memory is beautiful. Add to that the capabilities of triggering combinations of analog and digital and you have an instrument that can capture almost anything within it's bandwidth and can be generated by your circuit. It makes serial (UART, SPI, I2C) a piece of cake to debug. Power up/down problems, glitches, LCD timing, you name it. It's
an investment that's paid for itself many times over.

If I ever have a fire, you'll see me running buck nekkid from my lab carrying that scope! :-)
Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

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2003\05\19@223501 by Tom Messenger

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At 08:47 PM 5/19/03 -0500, you wrote:
>
>If I ever have a fire, you'll see me running buck nekkid from my lab
>carrying that scope! :-)
>
>Matt Pobursky
>Maximum Performance Systems

Matt, just why is it that you would be in your lab "buck nekkid"?  What
exactly do you do in your lab? Just curious...

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2003\05\19@224532 by john chung

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Matt Pobursky wrote:

{Quote hidden}

  After a few days thinking about it, I have decided to get a "good" oscilloscope
for my hobby. It will take me months or years to get a reasonable one for me(second hand).
I intend to get a 60 MHz with 2 probes. The 4 probes oscilloscope(brand new) will cost me
way too much. Lets say that a 4 probes scope will make me a popper a year!!!!!

  Since this is a hobby I am willing to settle on 2 probes and HP/Tektronics.
I haven't heard anything good about Iwatsu... The main concern that
I have with Iwatsu is that it may be as nuts like my Sunwa DMM. This little
DMM(pocket size) of mine is nuts. Really nuts. On the DMM and test the VAC it
just reports an Overload. Not acceptable b'cos the range is up to 500VAC.
Now test resistance and then VAC it reads 240Vs...... Very dangerous!!!!
My fluke reads with no problems.

Thanks guys for all your input.

*Keep on contributing on this thread I will like to read your
experience with your scopes :) *

>
> Matt Pobursky
> Maximum Performance Systems
>
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2003\05\19@234706 by Matt Pobursky

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On Mon, 19 May 2003 19:30:21 -0700, Tom Messenger wrote:
> At 08:47 PM 5/19/03 -0500, you wrote:
> > If I ever have a fire, you'll see me running buck nekkid from my
> > lab carrying that scope! :-)
> > 
> > Matt Pobursky Maximum Performance Systems

> Matt, just why is it that you would be in your lab "buck nekkid"?
> What exactly do you do in your lab? Just curious...

Hahaha... after posting that message I just KNEW someone would ask...
(I figured it would be Jinx though!)
Actually, my lab is a converted spare bedroom in my house just down the
hall from my master bedroom. I figure any fire I have to react quickly
to will be at night, I sleep in the buff (yeah TMI, I know). Ok, not a
pretty picture I admit it! ;-)
My point was that it would be the first thing I'd save, regardless of
personal embarr(ass)ment.

Matt

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2003\05\20@005345 by David VanHorn

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>
>My point was that it would be the first thing I'd save, regardless of
>personal embarr(ass)ment.

Kids, Wife, Scope.  Mine's a TDS-420

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2003\05\20@023842 by hael Rigby-Jones

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: David VanHorn [SMTP:.....dvanhornKILLspamspam@spam@CEDAR.NET]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 12:34 AM
> To:   PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject:      Re: [EE]: Is a 20Mhz Oscilliscope any good?
>
> >
> >> 2) is analog oscilloscope any good?
> >> 3) any opinions on Iwatsu?
>
> We had an Iwatsu in the lab once, couldn't get anyone to use it.
>
> Analog's fine, as long as you're dealing with repetitive signals.
> If it's one-shot, you really need a DSO or logic analyzer.
>
I bought an Iwatsu dual trace scope from my last workplace when it went
faulty and was considered BEC.  The primary on the mains transformer had
gone OC but I managed to rewind it.  Not a bad scope for an analogue unit,
unbeliveable amount of triggering options and even a cheesy DMM built into
the top of the unit.  Only cost me 20UKP and has served me very well.  At
work I use Agilent Infinium digital scopes and IMO they are excellent
devices.

Mike


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2003\05\20@033556 by Jinx

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> Matt, just why is it that you would be in your lab "buck nekkid"?
> What exactly do you do in your lab? Just curious...

Hahaha... after posting that message I just KNEW someone would
ask...(I figured it would be Jinx though!)

Jinx didn't have to ask. Jinx knows. So do The Shadow

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2003\05\20@103551 by Dwayne Reid

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At 12:23 PM 5/19/03 +0800, john chung wrote:
>I am currently hunting an oscilloscope. I am currently doing PIC
>programming and hopefully some audio projects in the future. In my country
>a tektronics oscilloscope cost around USD 250.00 more than in US. The
>model that I am referring to is Tektronics TS 1000.
>
>I have just received a price list for analog oscilloscopes manufactured by
>Iwatsu. The range start from 20 MHz to 100 MHz. I can afford the 20 MHz and
>40 MHz only. The 100 MHz is a bit too much.
>
>The main question is that:
>1) should I just wait until i can buy a 100 MHz oscilloscope(which is
>expensive). I may want to do so some computer interfacing project in the
>future.

Nope - don't wait.

>2) is analog oscilloscope any good?

Quite frankly, if you are doing a significant amount of analog work, you
want an analog scope anyways.  I find the DSOs to be painful to use for
analog work - too noisy and the display rate on most older DSOs is too slow.

On the other hand, the DSO is absolutely invaluable when it comes to
dealing with non-repetitive or  slow signals.

I keep a Tek 465 on my bench - it is the first thing I reach for when
looking at something that does not work.  I also keep a couple of Fluke
8050 DMMs on the same bench - but the scope gets used more.

There are 5 working analog scopes in my shop and 1 DSO.  The DSO is idle
most of the time, 3 of the 5 analog scopes are in use most all the time.

>3) any opinions on Iwatsu?

I've used their 15 MHz scope (same as the Metermaster line) - it is capable
and has worked without any problems for at least 15 years.

>I am really just interesting in obtaining an oscilloscope for my projects
>ranging from PIC,audio,computer interfacing and (tv repair??).

Hard to say which is going to be more useful - analog scope or DSO.  Based
upon my experience, I'd say the analog scope would suit you better.  Others
will disagree.

dwayne

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2003\05\20@120535 by Herbert Graf

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> >I am really just interesting in obtaining an oscilloscope for my projects
> >ranging from PIC,audio,computer interfacing and (tv repair??).
>
> Hard to say which is going to be more useful - analog scope or DSO.  Based
> upon my experience, I'd say the analog scope would suit you
> better.  Others
> will disagree.

       Well I went an "interesting" way. I own a 30? year old HP 100MHz analog
scope (dual trace, delayed sweep and more, very sweet), but the one that
gets used the most is a single channel Velleman pocket scope. It has alot to
be desired but it's so portable and handy it almost always is enough for the
job at hand. It is very useful for debugging serial issues and anything one
shot. When I DO need the extra "power" I whip out my 100MHz HP an off I
go... :) Not for everybody, but when a scope is as small as a POS terminal
it really changes when one pulls out the DMM. TTYL

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2003\05\20@124427 by Tal

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Take a look at eBay, you can find a good deal from a reputable seller.

Here is for example a guy that misspelled Oscilloscope in the item title
and is less likely to get many bids ;-)

cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2532484161&category=4
677

My favorites are Tektronix low end DSO such as

cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2531607437&category=4
677

In addition to being great scopes, they can also digitally measure
voltage (P2P and RMS, frequency, pulse width and some of them even do
FFT). In addition, you can connect them to a PC (software extra) and
capture and print signals (great for documentation).

In any case, check the seller feedback before you commit.

Tal


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