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'[EE]: IGBT Help'
2001\11\07@231806 by Josh Koffman

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Hi all. Has anyone here had any experience with IGBTs (Insulated Gate
Bipolar Trasistor)? Or does anyone know of any good resources on the
net? So far the best I've found is an application manual from Fuji
Semiconductor. Anyone know of anything else? I'd be particularly
interested in any real circuits or circuit fragments using IGBTs.

Thanks!

Josh Koffman

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2001\11\08@014931 by Bob Blick

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>Hi all. Has anyone here had any experience with IGBTs (Insulated Gate
>Bipolar Trasistor)? Or does anyone know of any good resources on the
>net? So far the best I've found is an application manual from Fuji
>Semiconductor. Anyone know of anything else? I'd be particularly
>interested in any real circuits or circuit fragments using IGBTs.

Hi Josh,

I've (ab)used quite a few IGBT's.

Usually if you need to switch high voltage you use a bipolar transistor.
Usually to drive high current you use a MOSFET. What if you need both?
That's where an IGBT comes in handy.

Rules of thumb regarding their use:

Used for very high voltage and high current. Think of them as a bipolar
transistor with a MOSFET driver. Unfortunately to drive them fast you must
absolutely drive the gate negative.

Do not consider them for use under 500 volts.

Avoid them unless you need them.

Cheerful regards,

Bob Blick

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2001\11\08@073414 by Josh Koffman

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Hi Bob, thanks for the reply. The reason I am looking at IGBTs is for
their use in theatrical light dimming. They seem to have huge advantages
over triac/scr dimming, and I'd like to experiment with that. If what
you say is correct (and I have no reason to doubt that it is), why are a
number of manufacturers using IGBTs instead of bipolar transistors? My
electronic design skills are completely self taught, so I just "don't
get it" when it comes to certain design issues. Have you driven the
IGBTs with a PIC? I was looking at the Fuji Semiconductor site, and they
seem to have a nice driver hybrid IC that in theory would make
triggering them quite easy. Because I'm looking at dimming, my loads
wouldn't be more than 2400 Watts at 120 volts. I understand I'd have to
use two IGBTs back to back to dim both sides of the AC wave. Fuji has a
nice 600V 50A dual pack that seems like it would meet my specs (if only
just barely :)).

Anyway, what would you reccomend? If I went with IGBTs, can you
reccomend a manufacturer and perhaps some part numbers? If bipolar
transistor, same request. I hope you can clear up some of my confusion.

Thanks!

Josh Koffman
.....joshyKILLspamspam@spam@3mtmp.com


Bob Blick wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2001\11\08@092516 by dfansler

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Hi Josh - you might check with SGS-Thompson.  I purchased 10 from them a
number of years ago that I never used.  If interested I would love to sell
them
30DB040D        IC, Transpack NPN Power Darlington Module 500V @ 45A    10      SGS


David V. Fansler
DFanslerspamKILLspamMindSpring.com
http://www.DV-Fansler.com

{Original Message removed}

2001\11\08@122908 by Harold M Hallikainen

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On Thu, 8 Nov 2001 07:48:36 -0500 Josh Koffman <.....listsjoshKILLspamspam.....3MTMP.COM>
writes:
> Hi Bob, thanks for the reply. The reason I am looking at IGBTs is for
> their use in theatrical light dimming. They seem to have huge
> advantages
> over triac/scr dimming, and I'd like to experiment with that. If
> what
> you say is correct (and I have no reason to doubt that it is), why
> are a
> number of manufacturers using IGBTs instead of bipolar transistors?

       I am also interested in views on IGBT and/or FETs for light dimming.
Thus far, I have not seen a way to do it economically when compared with
triacs or SCR solid state relay modules.
       If we stay with phase control, an IGBT or FET could eliminate the need
for chokes by doing a soft turn on. This increases dissipation in the
switch, but eliminates losses in the choke, so it may turn out similar.
       Ideally, I'd like an AC FET that goes down to zero ohms, or close.
However, the IGBT and FET circuits I've seen for AC have steering diodes
and IGBTs just plain have a pretty high saturation voltage, so losses are
no better than SCRs or triacs.
       Further, coming up with an isolated drive circuit without requiring a
separate floating supply for each dimmer channel seems difficult. Anyone
have anything we can do for the $10 per channel we're currently spending
on SCR solid state relays?
       Finally, phase control can cause power line problems (see
http://www.dovesystems.com/pages/apnotes/LDI2001/img0.htm ). It'd be nice
to do a high frequency PWM chop of the AC line and send that to the
lamps. This would be a "solid state Variac" and would present a linear
load to the AC line. However, adding required RF filtering on both the
line and load sides drives costs up again.
       So, I keep looking, but, right now, it seems almost impossible to beat
the economics of triacs or SCR modules for theatrical light dimming.
       Any other ideas?

Harold
(Dove Systems Engineering)



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2001\11\08@142548 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 09:00 AM 11/8/01 -0800, you wrote:
>        So, I keep looking, but, right now, it seems almost impossible to
beat
>the economics of triacs or SCR modules for theatrical light dimming.

I think you are right if cheapness is the main issue. Look up "reverse phase
control" for some improvements over thyristors. You need a device that can be
turned OFF to use these. I think you'll also find that the efficiency of
IGBTs is not quite as good as thyristors due to the higher voltage drop.

The idea with reverse phase control is to turn the IGBT "on" at the
beginning of
the cycle, and let the natural increase of the sine wave take place, then
turn the IGBT "off" when the filament has gottent enough energy this cycle.
Because you don't get the high di/dt turn-on there is less filament singing
and it may be easier to reduce EMI with a filter.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
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2001\11\08@184034 by Josh Koffman

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Hi Harold. How was LDI? I sent a couple of friends to say hi to you from
me, but apparently you were at lunch when they wandered by the Dove
booth. They did get me a nifty Dove Systems pin, which promptly broke in
their baggage hehe. I guess the moral is, if you want nice freebies, get
them yourself. I was wondering if I could send you a couple of offlist
questions about something else? Now, on to the task at hand...

I think Sphero hit the nail on the head with his reply to this thread.
It isn't so much cost or voltage drop that you win with, it's that you
can do reverse phase control. By turning the lamp on at the beginning of
the half cycle, and off in the middle, you don't end up with a huge
inrush current, so the current ramps up gradually in the lamp. This
means less emi and less filament sing. Check out Entertainment
Technologies (used to be independant, then were bought by Rosco, now
independant again, all in under a year). They came out with their IPS
dimmer and the Capio system, both of which use reverse phase controlled
IGBTs. Their dimmers are also pretty intelligent, capable of detecting
all sorts of things about their load, and even capable of switching into
forward phase control should the need arise. Personally I just want to
play around with reverse phase control. I know I'm not good enough to
add that much intelligence to my dimmers.

When you talk about PWM on the AC line, do you mean varying the width of
the half cycle, but spacing the same? For example, 120 half cycles per
second, but you squeeze the wave into a portion of each cycle so there
are times when there are periods of no power? I hope that is clear
enough.

Hope to hear from you soon,

Josh Koffman

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Harold M Hallikainen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\11\09@135034 by Harold M Hallikainen

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On Thu, 8 Nov 2001 14:31:35 -0500 Spehro Pefhany <@spam@speffKILLspamspamINTERLOG.COM>
writes:
> The idea with reverse phase control is to turn the IGBT "on" at the
> beginning of
> the cycle, and let the natural increase of the sine wave take place,
> then
> turn the IGBT "off" when the filament has gottent enough energy this
> cycle.
> Because you don't get the high di/dt turn-on there is less filament
> singing
> and it may be easier to reduce EMI with a filter.
>

       I can see that perhaps since the lamp is a bit warmer at this time (how
much does lamp resistance really vary through a half cycle? Is
temperature relatively constant due to thermal mass, or does it follow
the voltage?), the resistance would be a bit higher causing the di/dt to
be lower just because the I is lower. But, again, how much does
resistance vary through a cycle? If the rise or fall time is the same
(and assuming the current at that particular point in the cycle is the
same whether using forward or reverse phase control), it seems that it
would make no difference as far as EMI is concerned whether the current
slope at the switching time is positive or negative. It seems it'd purely
be a matter of how big is it (how many amps are we changing), and how
fast are we doing it. If we are limiting di/dt because of slow turn off,
it seems that it makes little difference whether that is done at turn on
or turn off.
       So, the question, it seems, is WHY would reverse phase control be better
than forward phase control? The only reason I can think of is varying
lamp resistance through the cycle, but I wonder how much that actually
varies.

Thanks for the comments!

Harold


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2001\11\09@135112 by Harold M Hallikainen

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On Thu, 8 Nov 2001 18:54:43 -0500 Josh Koffman <KILLspamlistsjoshKILLspamspam3MTMP.COM>
writes:
> Hi Harold. How was LDI? I sent a couple of friends to say hi to you
> from
> me, but apparently you were at lunch when they wandered by the Dove
> booth. They did get me a nifty Dove Systems pin, which promptly
> broke in
> their baggage hehe. I guess the moral is, if you want nice freebies,
> get
> them yourself. I was wondering if I could send you a couple of
> offlist
> questions about something else? Now, on to the task at hand...

       Sorry I missed you! LDI was fun!

{Quote hidden}

       As I mentioned in another post here, it SEEMS that unless the lamp
resistance varies substantially through the cycle, forward and reverse
phase control would have similar inrush and EMI characteristics. The only
reason we have inrush current is because the lamp is cold. But, does it
really cool off much from cycle to cycle? I'm kinda interested in FET
control (which, it seems, should have less loss than IGBT) to allow for
controlled risetime, possibly eliminating the need for chokes (at the
expense of dissipation). We could, at that time, go to reverse phase
control pretty easily if it would do any good. I'd really like to see a
FET replacement for the dual SCR solid state relays we're using. They DO
exist, but they require an isolated power supply for each channel, thus
consuming large quantities of money...

> When you talk about PWM on the AC line, do you mean varying the
> width of
> the half cycle, but spacing the same? For example, 120 half cycles
> per
> second, but you squeeze the wave into a portion of each cycle so
> there
> are times when there are periods of no power? I hope that is clear
> enough.


       I'm thinking of high frequency PWM switching of the AC line (like maybe
50 or 100 kHz). If you chop the AC line with a duty cycle of 50%, then
run it through a low pass filter, you'd get a 60V (in the US) sine wave.
This'd require a big LPF for incoming AC and a smaller LPF on each
output, thus driving costs up considerably. The output would be a sine
wave, which would be nice, and the input current would also be
sinusoidal. It's only a matter of money...

Harold

FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules
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2001\11\09@143451 by Bob Blick

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>         I can see that perhaps since the lamp is a bit warmer at this
> time (how much does lamp resistance really vary through a half cycle?

Lamp resistance is relatively constant when any light at all is being
produced. The big change comes from zero to "just barely glowing".

Cheers,

Bob Blick

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2001\11\09@192241 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 09:03 AM 11/9/01 -0800, you wrote:

>        So, the question, it seems, is WHY would reverse phase control be
better
>than forward phase control? The only reason I can think of is varying
>lamp resistance through the cycle, but I wonder how much that actually
>varies.

On reflection, you pretty much have to be right on this. And "soft" turn on
is as possible as turn-off. You save the weight and cost of an inductor but
lose more efficiency. So, why not SCRs and a hefty series inductor?

The other possible advantage of using an IGBT is the possibility of detecting
a short or arc very quickly and shutting it down. Some are "short-circuit"
rated
for this kind of service, which is actually very hard on the IGBT, the
turn-off
can kill the IGBT if it isn't done just right. It's not possible at all with
thyristors, you have to depend on a fast and expensive I2T fuse to protect
the semiconductor.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
RemoveMEspeffTakeThisOuTspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
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2001\11\12@041019 by Alan B. Pearce

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>I'm thinking of high frequency PWM switching of the AC line (like maybe
>50 or 100 kHz). If you chop the AC line with a duty cycle of 50%, then
>run it through a low pass filter, you'd get a 60V (in the US) sine wave.
>This'd require a big LPF for incoming AC and a smaller LPF on each
>output, thus driving costs up considerably. The output would be a sine
>wave, which would be nice, and the input current would also be
>sinusoidal. It's only a matter of money...

There are IC's to do this. Motorola make one in an 8 pin package IIRC. They
are used for minimising power factor problems on switch mode supplies. This
may allow you to get a DC voltage which you can then use with chopping fets
to deal with your lamp dimming. Sorry I cannot remember the IC number.

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2001\11\12@044626 by Vasile Surducan

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On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

> >I'm thinking of high frequency PWM switching of the AC line (like maybe
> >50 or 100 kHz). If you chop the AC line with a duty cycle of 50%, then
> >run it through a low pass filter, you'd get a 60V (in the US) sine wave.
> >This'd require a big LPF for incoming AC and a smaller LPF on each
> >output, thus driving costs up considerably. The output would be a sine
> >wave, which would be nice, and the input current would also be
> >sinusoidal. It's only a matter of money...
>
> There are IC's to do this. Motorola make one in an 8 pin package IIRC. They
> are used for minimising power factor problems on switch mode supplies. This
> may allow you to get a DC voltage which you can then use with chopping fets
> to deal with your lamp dimming. Sorry I cannot remember the IC number.
>
 UC3842/43/44?

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