Searching \ for '[EE]: How to make a transformer' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/power.htm?key=transformer
Search entire site for: 'How to make a transformer'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[EE]: How to make a transformer'
2002\08\21@094029 by Justin Grimm

flavicon
face
hi everyone
Does anyone know (or know where to get info) on how to design an inverter
transformer?
Its input is 24-0-24 V square wave 100kHz or 20kHz (havn't decided yet)
Its outputs are- 1x 432 V at 2400W
and 1x 12 V at 6W.
The turns ratio is 1:18. Do I use a ferrite core? It needs to be as small as
possible.

How do I design this transformer?

Thanks
Justin G

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2002\08\21@100130 by tcs

face picon face
You are NOT up to the task if you have to ask.
Designing a 3,000 watt inverter, is a NON-trivial task.
Finding a core that can handle that gauss will be a daunting challange.
BTW: 48 volts times 18 is NOT 432 volts.
Trying to wind a 50 AMP primary is a good challange too.

> {Original Message removed}

2002\08\21@100344 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Does anyone know (or know where to get info) on how to design an inverter
> transformer?
> Its input is 24-0-24 V square wave 100kHz or 20kHz (haven't decided yet)
> Its outputs are- 1x 432 V at 2400W
> and 1x 12 V at 6W.
> The turns ratio is 1:18. Do I use a ferrite core? It needs to be as small
as
> possible.


That's a very specialist transformer due to the power level.
You will need tape windings or similar and great care with things like
leakage inductance.

Philips had some good application notes on high frequency power transformer
design.

Details about how you are intending to drive it and why would help people
give better answers.

eg

At 2400w and 24v the average current is 100+ amps - not a design to be
undertaken lightly.

What sort of switching devices did you intend to use?
Why?
What sort of "inverter" circuit?
Where did you get the circuit from?
What is the intended load?
Are you using the AC as is or rectifying or ... ?
... ?


       Russell McMahon

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2002\08\21@100547 by Jim

flavicon
face
Take a look at the extensive library here:

http://www.mag-inc.com/library.asp

There is a section labled "General Information"
on this page that might provide a start with
some back ground information.

There are also product and material selector
guides that can assit you in selecting suitable
core material for a transformer.

Others may have more specific pointers/advice, but
in the meantime this is my input on this subject!

RF Jim

{Original Message removed}

2002\08\21@113718 by Justin Grimm

flavicon
face
The input is a push pull arrangement so there will be 24 v at any time on
the input.

Justin

-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Sefranek [spam_OUTtcsTakeThisOuTspamcmcorp.com]
Sent: Thursday, 22 August 2002 0:00
To: .....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [EE]: How to make a transformer


You are NOT up to the task if you have to ask.
Designing a 3,000 watt inverter, is a NON-trivial task.
Finding a core that can handle that gauss will be a daunting challange.
BTW: 48 volts times 18 is NOT 432 volts.
Trying to wind a 50 AMP primary is a good challange too.

{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2002\08\21@115630 by Eisermann, Phil [Ridg/CO]

flavicon
face
       I highly advise you to
       1) rethink using a push-pull for 3kW (there *will* be losses and it
is not 100% efficient), and
       2) read at least some introductory material

Please understand that point 2 is not meant to be derisive. But this is an
extremely involved process. You cannot separate the transformer from you
topology. They are intertwined. And ferrite selection is also influenced by
the topology. In fact, ferrite selection and transformer design tend to be
somewhat iterative. You need to understand why you might not want to use a
push-pull at these power levels. A decent introductory book is by Abraham
Pressman. There are a lot of other books, but this one is pretty good at
explaining the basic differences between the topologies and providing
general background

To reiterate, this is NOT a trivial subject. There is a lot of information
you need to know. There are massive amounts of books and college courses
(mainly post-grad, at least in my time) aimed at this subject. No one book
is really complete with all the details. The list cannot realistically hope
to give you all of this information. There is just too much of it. You need
at least a background so you can ask more specific questions.

And finally, there is no answer to your question, because it really depends
on the rest of the design.


> {Original Message removed}

2002\08\21@121423 by Justin Grimm

flavicon
face
>What sort of switching devices did you intend to use?

It will be switched with mosfets

>Why?
>What sort of "inverter" circuit?

dc to dc converter

>Where did you get the circuit from?

My circuit

>What is the intended load?

2400w

>Are you using the AC as is or rectifying or ... ?

dc to dc converter then chopped up again with IGBTs


I'm not experienced with trannies but need to find some docs on building
them. All the suppliers Ive tried wont touch it.

Justin




{Original Message removed}

2002\08\21@130701 by Jason Neudorf

flavicon
face
"Magnetics" may have adequate cores.  http://www.mag-inc.com/   Look at
their catalog, and you will see various calculations.  The standard "WaAc"
calculations are useful, but not definitive--with air cooling, you can put
more current through the copper than you could otherwise.  If you do use
100kHz, you will definitely need to pay attention to things like "skin
effect" as well--the copper losses will be significant, unless you use thin
foil.

I'd be interested to find what you're using to drive this thing:  the
devices we use for a similar application are big and not cheap.

Of course, you could always hire someone to design something like this.   If
you're rich enough to buy a few thousand, I'm sure that "Electronic
Craftsmen" (my division's parent company) would be happy to help you.

Jason Neudorf
Microcontroller Specialist
Power Vector (a division of Electronic Craftsmen)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Grimm" <EraseMEJustin.Grimmspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTSOUTHCORP.COM.AU>
To: <PICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [EE]: How to make a transformer


> The input is a push pull arrangement so there will be 24 v at any time on
> the input.
>
> Justin
>
> {Original Message removed}

2002\08\21@140152 by eronica Merryfield

flavicon
face
There are cores that will handle this. TDK do a good range.
I would use a resonant full bridge at this power and frequency.
Approx 3Kw at 24v implies 120A. There are mosfets that
can handle this from IR and TI (Old unitrode) and others. Control
ICs (Unitrode) that will do resonants as will Motorola and others.
You will need plannar or copper strip wound cores. Skin effect and
losses will need to be taken care off. 1% loss in these apps is a lot
of heat.

However, the transformer is just one part of this project.

Do not under-estimate what you are doing here. If you are new
to switch modes and high power ones at that, it is not a weekend
project. It takes a lot of time and effort to learn about these
technologies and you risk some 'interesting' times if it goes wrong.

Having said that, there is a lot of good material around to help you.
Read it and digest. Unitrode seminars on Ti web site under training
then analog.
--
Veronica Merryfield, somewhere in Cambridgeshire, UK
"The best things in life aren't things"




{Original Message removed}

2002\08\21@140958 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
> I'm not experienced with trannies but need to find some docs on building
> them. All the suppliers Ive tried wont touch it.

And they *are* experienced.  That tell you anything?

Dale

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2002\08\21@142241 by eronica Merryfield

flavicon
face
> > I'm not experienced with trannies but need to find some docs on building
> > them. All the suppliers Ive tried wont touch it.
>
> And they *are* experienced.  That tell you anything?
Or been to the wrong sort. There are many comapnys that do transformers
but at lline frequency for power or audio. There aren't many doing switch
mode,
but the are about and would do 3Kw @ 100Khz.

BTW, SMPSUs at this power are known at nearer 1Mhz, such is the state of the
art.
--
Veronica Merryfield, somewhere in Cambridgeshire, UK
"The best things in life aren't things"

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2002\08\21@190710 by Pic Dude

flavicon
face
Here's a link that should provide a bunch of info, but all
disclaimers apply...
  http://members.tripod.com/~schematics/xform/xformer1.htm

Cheers,
-Neil.


> {Original Message removed}

2002\08\21@195658 by Mike Singer

picon face
Dale Botkin wrote:
> > I'm not experienced with trannies but need to
> > find some docs on building them. All the
> > suppliers Ive tried wont touch it.
>
> And they *are* experienced.  That tell you anything?
>
> Dale
>

Justin,
"100kHz or 20kHz at 432V at 2400W" could fry even
an elephant. Don't let the PICList lose its members,
please.

Mike.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2002\08\22@044603 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
> Does anyone know (or know where to get info) on how to design an inverter
> transformer?
> Its input is 24-0-24 V square wave 100kHz or 20kHz (havn't decided yet)
> Its outputs are- 1x 432 V at 2400W
> and 1x 12 V at 6W.

You mentioned elsewhere that there will be IGBT's on the output. It seems to
me that there is a better way of doing this. What is the end use of the
output voltage?

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2002\08\22@094235 by Justin Grimm

flavicon
face
Its for a general purpose 240 v sine wave out put to power my house : )

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan B. Pearce [@spam@A.B.PearceKILLspamspamRL.AC.UK]
Sent: Thursday, 22 August 2002 18:12
To: KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [EE]: How to make a transformer


> Does anyone know (or know where to get info) on how to design an inverter
> transformer?
> Its input is 24-0-24 V square wave 100kHz or 20kHz (havn't decided yet)
> Its outputs are- 1x 432 V at 2400W
> and 1x 12 V at 6W.

You mentioned elsewhere that there will be IGBT's on the output. It seems to
me that there is a better way of doing this. What is the end use of the
output voltage?

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2002\08\22@134816 by Mike Singer

picon face
part 1 624 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit)

Justin Grimm wrote:
>
> Its for a general purpose 240 v sine wave output to
> power my house :)
>

There are many 12v/24v DC to 240v AC inverters on
a market. APS (not APC) line by Tripp Lite for example.

Google said  ( ATTACHED without ".gif"s ):
Inverters - TrippLite
... INVERTERS WITH INTEGRATED BATTERY CHARGERS
PowerVerterR APS Series APS units
automatically sense and switch AC output between outside
power (utility or ...
http://www.poweruptech.com/tl_inv.html - 49k - Cached - Similar pages

Look at
PV 2400FC/24  $519.00 24 Volts 2400 Watts 4800 Watts

Mike.



part 2 5963 bytes content-type:application/x-compressed; (decode)

part 3 131 bytes
--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2002\08\22@172650 by eronica Merryfield

flavicon
face
Where's the 24V 120A coming from??????
--
Veronica Merryfield, somewhere in Cambridgeshire, UK
"The best things in life aren't things"




----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Grimm" <RemoveMEJustin.GrimmTakeThisOuTspamSOUTHCORP.COM.AU>
To: <spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: [EE]: How to make a transformer


> Its for a general purpose 240 v sine wave out put to power my house : )
>
> {Original Message removed}

2002\08\22@174405 by Justin Grimm

flavicon
face
Its coming from batteries. BTW thanks for those links, there's a wealth of
info there.

Justin

-----Original Message-----
From: Veronica Merryfield [TakeThisOuTveronica.merryfieldEraseMEspamspam_OUTTESCO.NET]
Sent: Friday, 23 August 2002 7:28
To: RemoveMEPICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [EE]: How to make a transformer


Where's the 24V 120A coming from??????
--
Veronica Merryfield, somewhere in Cambridgeshire, UK
"The best things in life aren't things"




----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Grimm" <Justin.GrimmEraseMEspam.....SOUTHCORP.COM.AU>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: [EE]: How to make a transformer


> Its for a general purpose 240 v sine wave out put to power my house : )
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan B. Pearce [RemoveMEA.B.PearceEraseMEspamEraseMERL.AC.UK]
> Sent: Thursday, 22 August 2002 18:12
> To: RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EE]: How to make a transformer
>
>
> > Does anyone know (or know where to get info) on how to design an
inverter
> > transformer?
> > Its input is 24-0-24 V square wave 100kHz or 20kHz (havn't decided yet)
> > Its outputs are- 1x 432 V at 2400W
> > and 1x 12 V at 6W.
>
> You mentioned elsewhere that there will be IGBT's on the output. It seems
to
{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2002 , 2003 only
- Today
- New search...