Searching \ for '[EE]: Homemade PCB fabrication' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/pcbs.htm?key=pcb
Search entire site for: 'Homemade PCB fabrication'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[EE]: Homemade PCB fabrication'
2001\03\28@135225 by Simon Ethier

flavicon
face
I'd like to know how you guys do your PCB at home ?  Tell me how
1- How do you reproduce the schematic on your PCB ? (transfert sheet like Dynaarts -I don't like them...- etc...)
2- you etch do you use ferric chloride, etc... (did you make a container with buble, heat etc... if so could you describe it ? how do you place the PCB ? face down with bubble coming right from the bottom,  PCB un the side with bubble from the bottom, etc...)
3- For 2 layers, how do you connect the 2 layers ?  4- Do any of you put that sort of green mask or whatever you call it ? If so, how do you do and what exactly is it ?
5- Do you cover your tracks with anything or you just leave them with the coper ?


Any other info, tips or anything would be great !!

thanks
---
Simon Ethier

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\03\28@151452 by Eisermann, Phil [Ridg/CO]

flavicon
face
       Well, I seldom bother anymore :) Considering the cost of chemicals,
time, and effort involved, i'd rather spend the <$100.00 for some quick-turn
prototypes. If you make a lot of boards at home, it might be worth setting
up a home shop.

       Ok, so here is my setup, when I do use it...

       I use precoated photoresist. I find the transfer sheets just don't
turn out very well. Looks like crap. Maybe it's my technique, but I do have
and use the Super-Fuser thing. I'd hate to try it with the iron.

       If sloppy-looking is ok, then yes, you can make a useable board with
transfer paper, provided your traces are generously large. But as long as
they are large and some imperfections don't bother you, I have found that
Epson photo paper for laser jets (#S041141) also works. It won't do lines as
fine as dyna-art, and leaves some rough edges on the tracks. Then again,
dyna-art doesn't work too well for me. And the Epson paper is a lot cheaper.

       Ok, so that aside: For the photoresist stuff, I print the image on
transparancy. Usually, I expose the image onto high-contrast photocopy film.
I use Datak NEG-FAST Film. Electronix Express carries it. Sometimes I go
directly from the transparancy to the photoresist. It somewhat depends if I
am using positive or negative photoresist. I find the Datak gives much finer
lines than just transparancies, so usually when I go through the trouble of
making a board at home, i will go through the extra step of exposing the
contrast film. I expose both the Datak and the photoresist using a #2
photoflood bulb, available at any camera shop for a few dollars. I think I
paid about $3 two years ago.

       I built a rectangular etchant tank out of 1/4" plexiglass. It holds
about one gallon of etchant. I used a wood router to put rabbets on the
edges. It's more work, but it allows a significant amount of slop with no
leaks. I drilled a large hole in one of the narrow sides, about one inch
from the bottom. The hole is large enough for a fish-tank heater. That heats
up the acid. Then I drilled two small holes. One on the left side, one on
the right side. These smaller holes are below the heater. The holes accept
ridgid airline tubing. Two plastic air bubblers create motion.

       The final touch is the lid/board holder I build. The fine bubbles
cause acid to mist out the top. So I built a cover. The cover has two
plexiglass pegs that extend down into the acid. These pegs have lettuce
clips attached to them. It's hard to explain what it looks like. Maybe I'll
have to borrow a camera and take a picture. Anyway, these lettuce clips are
from my salt-water tank. They have suction cups that attach to the glass,
for feeding lettuce and seaweed to herbrivorous fish like Tangs. The suckers
wear out, so I used them for the etchant tank. Remove the suction cup and
use a plastic bolt to hold the clips onto the pegs. Works like a charm.

       If anyone is interested in seeing a picture, let me know. Otherwise,
I won't bother. I need to borrow a camera to take a picture, but I have to
do that anyway for the insurance on my new motorcycle.

       As for the other questions: I connect two layers with wires inserted
through the holes. When I am laying out a board for myself, I try very hard
to minimize the number of through holes, because aligning the layers is such
a pain. Not as much as drilling all those through holes, and then shoving
#30 wire through them. I could make the holes bigger i suppose.

       The "green stuff" you talk about is solder mask. When doing it at
home, no I don't use it. For home made PCB's I have never used it, nor do I
ever plan to. The only time you need it is if you are doing machine
soldering to prevent bridging. But you won't be putting your home made
boards through an assembly line! It helps on soldering the smaller SMD stuff
with a lot of leads, like a QFP-52. Or those extra-narrow op-amps from
Burr-Brown. But I doubt you can hand-make PCB's  with lines small enough to
actually use those types of components, so it shouldn't be an issue. I've
hand-soldered QFP-52 without soldermask, and it can be done. But mask would
make it so much easier.

       For coating, I usually use some sort of electroless tin plating. The
name 'Tinit' rings a bell. It's fairly nasty stuff. I always take it to work
and use it in a fume hood, complete with goggles and rubber gloves. Never at
home. It apparantly causes cancer in California. How the chemical knows it
is in California, I'll never know *grin* I'd stay clear from it. I'm just
using it up since I paid for it (consumer guilt). But then again, I have
access to a fume hood. Maybe I'm being overly paranoid, but I really don't
care to get cancer from a hobby.


{Original Message removed}

2001\03\28@165041 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
> I'd like to know how you guys do your PCB at home ?
> Tell me how

The cheapest ways require you to be really good or you get bad results.

> 1- How do you reproduce the schematic on your PCB ? (transfert sheet
> like Dynaarts -I don't like them...- etc...)
I use "Press'n'Peel Blue" from http://www.techniks.com and you must use a
good laser printer, not a copier.

> 2- you etch do you use ferric chloride, etc... (did you make a
> container with buble, heat etc... if so could you describe it ? how do
> you place the PCB ? face down with bubble coming right from the
> bottom, PCB un the side with bubble from the bottom, etc...)

If you place it copper up in the fecl and slosh it for what seems like
forever that works. Preheating the fecl in a microwave makes it etch
faster but I don't like the taste.

3- For 2 layers, how do you connect the 2 layers ?

Unless you're really a masochist forget 2 layers.

4- Do any of you put that sort of green mask or whatever you call it ? If
so, how do you do and what exactly is it ?

Solder mask? No, these are home made, remember.

5- Do you cover your tracks with anything or you just leave them with the
coper ?

Plain.

Cheers,

Bob

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\03\28@165415 by Jinx

face picon face
> From: Simon

> I'd like to know how you guys do your PCB at home ?
> Tell me how

Tony Nixon and I both posted our pages yesterday. I don't know
how you missed it

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/0makepcb.html

http://www.picnpoke.com/projects/pcb.html

> 3- For 2 layers, how do you connect the 2 layers ?

Links. It's not easy doing through-plating at home. And measure
carefully from a reference point when doing double-sided boards.
0.5mm out can be a big stuff-up

> 4- Do any of you put that sort of green mask or whatever you call it ?
> If so, how do you do and what exactly is it ?

I've never needed to use any masking (solder, component or
whatever) for home prototypes. That's something probably more
useful for a manufacturing run when it will be someone else is
assembling the boards for example

> 5- Do you cover your tracks with anything or you just leave them
>with the coper ?

Sometimes I tin tracks, sometimes I don't. I'm moody like that

> Any other info, tips or anything would be great !!
> Simon Ethier

It might just be my bad experience but I've never like phenolic PCB,
I prefer GRP. The copper-board bonding seems to be better

And don't under-estimate space need for components. A board
1cm bigger is a lot easier to work on

Although Eagle will do Gerber, many commercial PCB houses
can use a good printout to make negatives. You can get this by
outputting a .tiff from Eagle's CAM processor

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\03\28@180849 by mike

flavicon
picon face
On  at , Jinx wrote:

> From:                 Jinx <spam_OUTjoecolquittTakeThisOuTspamCLEAR.NET.NZ>
> Subject:              Re: [EE]: Homemade PCB fabrication
> To:                   .....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>
> > From: Simon
>
> > I'd like to know how you guys do your PCB at home ?
> > Tell me how
>
There are less ways to skin a cat, but here's how I do it for double
sided boards.

I use EAGLE pcb program ( http://www.cadsoft.de )
Ferric chloride in a double bath. the inner bath has the ferric and
the outer bath has tap hot water to raise the FeCl temp.

design the board using eagle, but hand route the vias so that
component leads can be used instead, but don't have a top track
going to an IC socket, its difficult to solder to the top of an IC socket
pin ;-)

print out the drawings of the layout
1. the top track, with pads
2 the bottom track with pads ( invert the printout to get the correct
orientation)
3, the top , just the pads
4, the silk and pads

trim the pads printout to the pcb size.
attach firmly to the board to be etched. then using a .05mm drill in a
pinchuck or, as I do, in a homemade pillar drill built from a cassette
player motor, a pin chuck and some scrap aluminium,  drill out all
the pad holes.

using a very fine grit "wet and dry" abrasive paper remove the burrs
from the pcb, thouroughly de-grease the board with Carbon
Tetrochloride or similar, dont touch the board after cleaning.

Then using a Staedler Lumocolour 313 pen with an "S" nib
( a permenent marker pen used for overhead transparencies,
available in UK at any W H Smiths for about 60p ) draw the pads
around the drilled holes. Then, referring to the relevant printout of
the top or bottom tracks draw in the interconnecting tracks. If you
make an error you can remove the ink with a cotton bud and some
Carbon Tet.

when the tracks are laid out, take a break for a coffee, then re-
check your work for errors and rectify if nessesary.

put about 1/2" of FeCl in the inner bath ( I use a plastic icecream
tub of dimentions about 5" wide x 9" long x 4" high with a resealable
lid) put the inner bath in the outer bath and carefully fill the outer
bath with hot water until the level is sufficient to float the inner tub a
little bit. wait a few mins for the FeCl to raise its temprature to that of
the surrounding water.

Using two plastic PCB guides on the edges of the pcb held in place
with a rubber band , (guides are from an old XT case ) to prevent
the pcb from rubbing the bottom of the bath, place the pcb in the
FeCl and agitate by rocking the inner. within a few seconds you will
see the copper turn pink. carefully remove the board, rinse it in
running water and then visually check that you hav'nt left any
whiskers of resist. replace the pcb in the bath and agitate until the
copper has all gone, then agitate further for about 30 seconds to
ensure the copper is all gone.

wash the pcb in running water, KEEP AWAY from any metal fittings
in the sink, the FeCl in minute quantities will attack the chrome and
wreak havoc with the wifes workplace.
remove the resist with Carbon Tet and burnish with the wet and dry.
all done.. visually check for shorts before building the project using
the printouts of the tracks and silk layers to orientate yourself.
ensure you solder to the top where nessesary for the pseudo vias

with care I can put a track between 0.1 spaced pads without
problems using the mentioned pen. I have also made a PCB for the
AD9850 with its 0.025" spaced pins using this method, but it was a
bugger to do.

hope all this typing was useful to someone.

The usual Caveats apply with regard to FeCl, Carbon Tet, Nicotine,
Caffine etc.

atb Mike W
--
"Smile" said the Lord, "things could be worse"
so I did, and they were ;-(

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\03\28@185141 by Jinx

face picon face
> > Any other info, tips or anything would be great !!
> > Simon Ethier

One other thing re: double-sided boards. You don't HAVE to
drill through for DIP components. Turn them into big SMT parts
by simply bending the legs out flat. I've done a few boards this
way, and it cuts done drilling and dodging tracks enormously.
It can be easier to debug as well - the IC pins and the tracks
they connect to are on the same side

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/0bigsmt.html

You'll see that a 20-pin DIP and a 32-pin SMT SRAM are on
opposite sides of the board. Similarly with the 28-pin S-DIP
and the SMT gate chips. This would not have been practically
possible if I'd had to drill through. Even vias would have been
tricky. Note how the S-DIP has an SMT IC under it (just poking
out)

This prototype was made from two Eagle .tiffs. 0.010" tracks are
reproducible. Because of the board size requirements (which
would have made fitting dozens of vias very difficult) and some
ICs not being available in SMT this is an acceptable solution,
for me anyway. When this goes to full production I'll stump up
for pth and pick and place assembly

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\03\28@192404 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Jinx wrote:

> One other thing re: double-sided boards. You don't HAVE to
> drill through for DIP components. Turn them into big SMT parts
> by simply bending the legs out flat. I've done a few boards this
> way, and it cuts done drilling and dodging tracks enormously.
> It can be easier to debug as well - the IC pins and the tracks
> they connect to are on the same side

I've done this plenty of times.

I bend the DIP pins inwards and then press the chip onto the holes in a
solderless breadboard. That process neatly bends the pins over even
further and gives a nice little knee bend to solder onto a board.

The knee bends end up being lower than the tips of the pins so they
don't interfere with circuit tracks that might go under the chip.


--
Best regards

Tony

mICro's
http://www.picnpoke.com
salesspamKILLspampicnpoke.com

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\03\28@203001 by Simon Ethier

flavicon
face
I'd love to see some photos....


----- Original Message -----
From: "Eisermann, Phil [Ridg/CO]" <.....peisermaKILLspamspam.....RIDGID.COM>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [EE]: Homemade PCB fabrication


>         Well, I seldom bother anymore :) Considering the cost of
chemicals,
> time, and effort involved, i'd rather spend the <$100.00 for some
quick-turn
> prototypes. If you make a lot of boards at home, it might be worth setting
> up a home shop.
>
>         Ok, so here is my setup, when I do use it...
>
>         I use precoated photoresist. I find the transfer sheets just don't
> turn out very well. Looks like crap. Maybe it's my technique, but I do
have
> and use the Super-Fuser thing. I'd hate to try it with the iron.
>
>         If sloppy-looking is ok, then yes, you can make a useable board
with
> transfer paper, provided your traces are generously large. But as long as
> they are large and some imperfections don't bother you, I have found that
> Epson photo paper for laser jets (#S041141) also works. It won't do lines
as
> fine as dyna-art, and leaves some rough edges on the tracks. Then again,
> dyna-art doesn't work too well for me. And the Epson paper is a lot
cheaper.
>
>         Ok, so that aside: For the photoresist stuff, I print the image on
> transparancy. Usually, I expose the image onto high-contrast photocopy
film.
> I use Datak NEG-FAST Film. Electronix Express carries it. Sometimes I go
> directly from the transparancy to the photoresist. It somewhat depends if
I
> am using positive or negative photoresist. I find the Datak gives much
finer
> lines than just transparancies, so usually when I go through the trouble
of
> making a board at home, i will go through the extra step of exposing the
> contrast film. I expose both the Datak and the photoresist using a #2
> photoflood bulb, available at any camera shop for a few dollars. I think I
> paid about $3 two years ago.
>
>         I built a rectangular etchant tank out of 1/4" plexiglass. It
holds
> about one gallon of etchant. I used a wood router to put rabbets on the
> edges. It's more work, but it allows a significant amount of slop with no
> leaks. I drilled a large hole in one of the narrow sides, about one inch
> from the bottom. The hole is large enough for a fish-tank heater. That
heats
> up the acid. Then I drilled two small holes. One on the left side, one on
> the right side. These smaller holes are below the heater. The holes accept
> ridgid airline tubing. Two plastic air bubblers create motion.
>
>         The final touch is the lid/board holder I build. The fine bubbles
> cause acid to mist out the top. So I built a cover. The cover has two
> plexiglass pegs that extend down into the acid. These pegs have lettuce
> clips attached to them. It's hard to explain what it looks like. Maybe
I'll
> have to borrow a camera and take a picture. Anyway, these lettuce clips
are
> from my salt-water tank. They have suction cups that attach to the glass,
> for feeding lettuce and seaweed to herbrivorous fish like Tangs. The
suckers
> wear out, so I used them for the etchant tank. Remove the suction cup and
> use a plastic bolt to hold the clips onto the pegs. Works like a charm.
>
>         If anyone is interested in seeing a picture, let me know.
Otherwise,
> I won't bother. I need to borrow a camera to take a picture, but I have to
> do that anyway for the insurance on my new motorcycle.
>
>         As for the other questions: I connect two layers with wires
inserted
> through the holes. When I am laying out a board for myself, I try very
hard
> to minimize the number of through holes, because aligning the layers is
such
> a pain. Not as much as drilling all those through holes, and then shoving
> #30 wire through them. I could make the holes bigger i suppose.
>
>         The "green stuff" you talk about is solder mask. When doing it at
> home, no I don't use it. For home made PCB's I have never used it, nor do
I
> ever plan to. The only time you need it is if you are doing machine
> soldering to prevent bridging. But you won't be putting your home made
> boards through an assembly line! It helps on soldering the smaller SMD
stuff
> with a lot of leads, like a QFP-52. Or those extra-narrow op-amps from
> Burr-Brown. But I doubt you can hand-make PCB's  with lines small enough
to
> actually use those types of components, so it shouldn't be an issue. I've
> hand-soldered QFP-52 without soldermask, and it can be done. But mask
would
> make it so much easier.
>
>         For coating, I usually use some sort of electroless tin plating.
The
> name 'Tinit' rings a bell. It's fairly nasty stuff. I always take it to
work
> and use it in a fume hood, complete with goggles and rubber gloves. Never
at
> home. It apparantly causes cancer in California. How the chemical knows it
> is in California, I'll never know *grin* I'd stay clear from it. I'm just
> using it up since I paid for it (consumer guilt). But then again, I have
> access to a fume hood. Maybe I'm being overly paranoid, but I really don't
> care to get cancer from a hobby.
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\03\28@203233 by Dwayne Reid

flavicon
face
At 02:13 PM 3/28/01 -0600, Eisermann, Phil [Ridg/CO] wrote:

>         As for the other questions: I connect two layers with wires inserted
>through the holes. When I am laying out a board for myself, I try very hard
>to minimize the number of through holes, because aligning the layers is such
>a pain. Not as much as drilling all those through holes, and then shoving
>#30 wire through them. I could make the holes bigger i suppose.

I (we) make a lot of proto boards here at our shop.  I worked out a
technique for registering the negatives when making double sided board that
has worked very well over the past 20 years or so.

Its so simple that I feel embarrassed to mention it, except that it
works!  Just take a scrap of the exact same PCB material that you are
exposing (with copper surfaces).  Cut it into an "L" shape, with 1 leg at
least 2" long and the other leg at least 3 or 4 inches long.  Take your
time when cutting the inside corner: make it nice and square, with smooth
edges.  We make ours about 3" x 4", with 1" wide legs.  Think of a
carpenters square.

Cut the board that you want to expose about 1/2" larger than you
need.  This leaves a border of about 1/4" of waste material you will have
to cut off when the board has been etched.  Its a PITA but you need the space.

The board you are going to expose sits in the inside corner of the
jig.  Since this little jig is made of the same material as the board, it
is the same thickness.  That is important.

Attach one of the transparencies to the jig.  Position it so that the
actual image is about 1/4" away from both arms of the jig.  Tape it to both
arms of the jig using thin Scotch Tape.

Flip the jig over and position the other transparency on the jig.  Line up
the holes in the center of the pads.  Tape only to the long side of the
jig.  You want the transparency to 'hinge' on the tape.  Take your time
aligning the transparencies - this is what determines how well the pads
will line up on the finished board.

Thats it!  To use, just tuck the sensitized board into the corner of the
jig.  Place into your expose frame (we use 2 pieces of glass and a vacuum
pump) and expose.  Turn over and expose the other side.  Develop and etch.

This might also work with toner transfer paper but I haven't tried it.  But
I suspect it would work just fine.

For what its worth, we use Riston 4315 film and a modified Ibico laminator
to sensitize our boards.  We develop using 'soda ash' (Sodium Carbonate),
etch with Ammonium Persulfate and strip the resist off with Caustic Soda
(Sodium Hydroxide).  The expose lamp is a 175 Watt Mercury Vapour lamp with
the outer envelope removed.  Its in a metal box with a motorized shutter
controlled with a timer.  We don't allow anyone to remain in the PCB room
when the shutter is open.

We've made thousands of boards over the years with extremely good
results.  But drilling all those holes is still a pain.

dwayne

PS:  We asked our local University to come up with an inexpensive technique
for safely disposing of spent Ammonium Persulfate etchant.  They succeeded
in doing so.  Check with the Chemistry department at the University of
Alberta.  I'd be happy to pass on the technique but I'd prefer you get it
from the experts.  Plus - they deserve the attention and the credit.

dwayne



Dwayne Reid   <dwaynerspamspam_OUTplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

Celebrating 17 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2001)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited
commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\03\28@203251 by Simon Ethier

flavicon
face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Blick" <@spam@bobKILLspamspamTED.NET>
To: <KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [EE]: Homemade PCB fabrication


> > I'd like to know how you guys do your PCB at home ?
> > Tell me how
>
> The cheapest ways require you to be really good or you get bad results.
>
> > 1- How do you reproduce the schematic on your PCB ? (transfert sheet
> > like Dynaarts -I don't like them...- etc...)
> I use "Press'n'Peel Blue" from http://www.techniks.com and you must use a
> good laser printer, not a copier.

Have you tried Dyna-art ? this dyna-art thing didn't work to much for me...

{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\03\28@203728 by Simon Ethier

flavicon
face
Seems I didn't receive that message ...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jinx" <RemoveMEjoecolquittTakeThisOuTspamCLEAR.NET.NZ>
To: <spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [EE]: Homemade PCB fabrication


{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\03\28@231009 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
>> > 1- How do you reproduce the schematic on your PCB ? (transfert sheet
>> > like Dynaarts -I don't like them...- etc...)
>> I use "Press'n'Peel Blue" from http://www.techniks.com and you must use a
>> good laser printer, not a copier.
>
>Have you tried Dyna-art ? this dyna-art thing didn't work to much for me...

Yes, I didn't like Dyna Art either. The Press'n'Peel stuff, however, adds
another layer(blue) onto the board so you get extra resistance against the
etchant, and also doesn't crack like the Dyna Art. So far I've tried it
with three laser printers(HPLJ3, NEC SW2 Model 90, Brother MFC4350) and
it's worked great with them all.

I'm cheap with it, too. I'll print the design onto a piece of paper, then
cut a piece of the blue stuff big enough to cover it, and tape it on by one
edge with a label. Then feed it through and print on it. That way it costs
"just pennies per board" :-) Experiment with the setting on your clothes
iron so it doesn't deform from too much heat but hot enough to stick well.

My etching setup is like an ant farm with a hose at the bottom, a fishtank
heater on max, and a fish air pump. All wedged into a styrofoam cooler with
foam rubber. I'm moving into an apartment next month so I guess I'll have
to put it in storage :-(

Cheers,

Bob

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\03\28@232912 by Randy Glenn

picon face
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Can you post a photo of this setup? Maybe it's because it's late, but
I'm having trouble visualizing it.

TIA,

- -Randy Glenn

If you have to ship styrofoam, what DO you pack it in?
=================================================
Randy_Glenn-at-tvo.org - PICxpert-at-picxpert.com
PICxpert-at-yahoo.com - PICxpert-at-home.com
           http://www.picxpert.com/
=================================================

- {Original Message removed}

2001\03\29@044636 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
> 5- Do you cover your tracks with anything or you just leave them
>with the coper ?

It can be worth spraying the board with a clear lacquer immediately you have
cleaned it after etching. Helps to preserve that nice clean copper look, and
stops fingerprints marking the copper. Also worth considering if living anywhere
that has high humidity or salts in the atmosphere (e.g. anywhere near sea or
geothermal areas) to stop corrosion.

The clear lacquer that most paint shops sell can be easily soldered through,
although it may be worth making sure you have some sort of to draw the fumes
away from your face (you should have this around any soldering area anyway).

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2001\03\29@104152 by Simon Ethier

flavicon
face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Blick" <TakeThisOuTbblickEraseMEspamspam_OUTSABER.NET>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: [EE]: Homemade PCB fabrication


> >> > 1- How do you reproduce the schematic on your PCB ? (transfert sheet
> >> > like Dynaarts -I don't like them...- etc...)
> >> I use "Press'n'Peel Blue" from http://www.techniks.com and you must use
a
> >> good laser printer, not a copier.
> >
> >Have you tried Dyna-art ? this dyna-art thing didn't work to much for
me...
>
> Yes, I didn't like Dyna Art either. The Press'n'Peel stuff, however, adds
> another layer(blue) onto the board so you get extra resistance against the
> etchant, and also doesn't crack like the Dyna Art. So far I've tried it
> with three laser printers(HPLJ3, NEC SW2 Model 90, Brother MFC4350) and
> it's worked great with them all.

You can do some small tracks ? like 10mils or 8mils ?
You wouldn't have one or 2 sheets left for me by any chance ? I'd like to
try that Press'n'Peel paper ...

> I'm cheap with it, too. I'll print the design onto a piece of paper, then
> cut a piece of the blue stuff big enough to cover it, and tape it on by
one
> edge with a label. Then feed it through and print on it. That way it costs
> "just pennies per board" :-) Experiment with the setting on your clothes
> iron so it doesn't deform from too much heat but hot enough to stick well.

Don't tell it to anyone but I do that to :)

> My etching setup is like an ant farm with a hose at the bottom, a fishtank
> heater on max, and a fish air pump. All wedged into a styrofoam cooler
with
> foam rubber. I'm moving into an apartment next month so I guess I'll have
> to put it in storage :-(

So you put your PCB on the side, and slide it in the tank?  I'm just trying
to figure out how to place the PCB in the tank (copper face up, face down,
on the side)  and how bubbles arrive on the PCB (like f your pcb is copper
face down, the bubbles come directly on it, if it is on the side, it slide
from one end of the pcb to the other ...)

thanks

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2001\03\29@110006 by Rob S

flavicon
face
>So you put your PCB on the side, and slide it in the tank?  I'm just trying
>to figure out how to place the PCB in the tank (copper face up, face down,
>on the side)  and how bubbles arrive on the PCB (like f your pcb is copper
>face down, the bubbles come directly on it, if it is on the side, it slide
>from one end of the pcb to the other ...)

I have the PCB's vertically in my tank, and where the bubbles strike the
copper that's where the etching process is most effective. The process
starts as soon as the water temperature reaches about 50° Celcius, don't
try it with cold water, as it won't work.

Rob
--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2001\03\29@113508 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
>
> You can do some small tracks ? like 10mils or 8mils ?
> You wouldn't have one or 2 sheets left for me by any chance ? I'd like to
> try that Press'n'Peel paper ...

You can't do tracks that thin. 12 or 13 mils is the best you can hope for
with this process. If I sent you some I would have to get more since I'm
almost out. But if you need to do thin traces it really won't work. You
can thin a trace to pass between IC pins, but you'll end up doing touchup
most of the time.

Cheers,

Bob

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2001\03\29@113942 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Randy Glenn wrote:
> Can you post a photo of this setup? Maybe it's because it's late, but
> I'm having trouble visualizing it.

Print a mirror image of the artwork on the blue sheets using a laser
printer. Then place the blue sheet, image side down, on the copper clad
board. Apply a clothes iron. The laser toner sticks to the copper, and the
blue stuff sticks to the toner too. When you peel off the sheet, toner and
blue is left on the copper just like your artwork. Now it's ready to etch.

The best etching tanks hold the boards on edge. The homemade setup I have
has an airpump forcing air through a hose in the bottom of the tank, so
bubbles rise constantly. Tape the PC board to a popsicle stich and use a
clothespin to hold the stick to the tank, suspending the PC board in the
etchant. The tank needs to have high sides to keep etchant from sloshing
out.

Cheers,

Bob

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2001\03\29@125752 by John Waters

picon face
>It can be worth spraying the board with a clear lacquer immediately you
>have
>cleaned it after etching. Helps to preserve that nice clean copper look,
>and
>stops fingerprints marking the copper. Also worth considering if living
>anywhere
>that has high humidity or salts in the atmosphere (e.g. anywhere near sea
>or
>geothermal areas) to stop corrosion.

Will the lacquer coating become some sort of conductive path for high
frequency signal, say, oscillation generated by a 12 MHz crystal?






_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2001\03\29@131252 by Randy A.

picon face
Just my own experience and it may not be the same as others but, I have
always ended up coming back to the photo process.  Making a negative and
doing the photo exposure on the sensitized copper board or using a positive
image and using the presensitized positive exposure boards.  Since most of us
are trying to make the boards as small a possible the traces are just too
thin for the transfer paper or "press n peel" technique.  At least that has
been my experience.

Regards,

Randy Abernathy
Woodworking Machine Specialist
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone/Fax: 770-974-5295
E-mail: cnc002EraseMEspam.....aol.com

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2001\03\29@133059 by Henry Carl Ott

flavicon
face
I guess I'll jump in on this thread.

I've noticed  a few people sharing techniques for getting good results with
toner transfer systems.
 A couple of week ago I typed up my experiences with toner transfer
systems over the last few years and posted the results to my projects page.

 It's just a rather sparse .pdf for now, I mean to add some photos and
additional info in the future.

 Some one may find it helpful.

http://users.rcn.com/carlott/projects.html



carl

--------------------------------------------------------
Henry Carl Ott   N2RVQ    EraseMEcarlottspamsi.rr.com
http://users.rcn.com/carlott/
--------------------------------------------------------

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2001\03\29@164456 by Bob

flavicon
face
I had used a similar method (graphics paper fused to toner) in the past to make
photomasks, and didn't like the inconsitancies (toner flakes off, lines tend to
widen, etc...).

I use presensitized PCB, and then use my inkjet to print the mask (but there is
a "trick" to getting the ink jet transparency dark enough to do this).

First of all, lie to your printer (oh sure, I'm printing on photo glossy paper
at the highest res and quality ;-), and then print an inverted version of the
circuit the same way (use as thin of a transparency that you can get away with).
Careful, the ink may be a bit sticky yet (that's good)  Align the two masks
together carefully (ink side to ink side).  The thick, possibly sticky, ink may
tend to make them stick together.  Let it dry a few minutes if it's too bad.
Tape one down on a flat surface (glass), and float the other one over it till
they are aligned.  Use a piece of cotton over your fingernail (so you don't
scratch the transparency) to burnish the traces together when they are perfectly
aligned.  Tape, or heat cut/seal the edges, and you have yourself a reliable
photomask capable of traces downwards of 0.020 wide.  Mask alignment, printer
alignment, printer ink, developement, or over/under etching, can have a effect
on the quality.

If your printer tends to "band", leave small open lines, or doesn't print thick
enough, you "can" try to double print each transparancy (your printer alignment
and repeatability needs to be pretty good though). Still, I have found this
method to be superior to using laser/copier toner (transparency mask, or fused
to copper clad) in most every way.

You can test to see if your inkjet printer prints dark enough, by making a 1"
square block like that, and then looking though it at an unfrosted light bulb.
You should be able to see the element (redish in color), without it hurting your
eyes (can't will till the next eclipse, I'm gonna be making me some custom
glasses).

Regards,

Bob

>
>Print a mirror image of the artwork on the blue sheets using a laser
>printer. Then place the blue sheet, image side down, on the copper clad
>board. Apply a clothes iron. The laser toner sticks to the copper, and the
>blue stuff sticks to the toner too. When you peel off the sheet, toner and
>blue is left on the copper just like your artwork. Now it's ready to etch.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2001\03\30@040909 by mike

flavicon
face
On Thu, 29 Mar 2001 13:11:47 EST, you wrote:

>Just my own experience and it may not be the same as others but, I have
>always ended up coming back to the photo process.  Making a negative and
>doing the photo exposure on the sensitized copper board or using a positive
>image and using the presensitized positive exposure boards.  Since most of us
>are trying to make the boards as small a possible the traces are just too
>thin for the transfer paper or "press n peel" technique.  At least that has
>been my experience.
I'd agree - with the right technique, you can easily get reliable
results with 10 thou (0.01") traces and clearances. Double-sided is
also much easier. The two most important things are to print on tracing paper - way
better than transparancy film and also cheaper, and not use sodium
hydroxide developer - use a silicate-based one.   For a detailed
discussion of this and other issues go to
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~wwl/pcbs.html

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2001 , 2002 only
- Today
- New search...