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'[EE]: HV feed from battery can kill?'
2002\05\24@170457 by Tal Bejerano - AMC

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Hi

the *question* is in subject of this email.
are all those HV shockers can kill?
what is the maximum voltage that cant harm?
can it give an electric shock only from one ("hot") wire or must have both
HV ends? "hot" and "ground".



Regards

Tal Bejerano
AMC - ISRAEL

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2002\05\24@212505 by Doug Hemingway

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Less than 100 mA through the heart is enough to stop it.  Dry skin has a
resistance of several hundred K ohms, so you will need kilovolts to create
that much current.  Wet skin, however, has a much lower resistance, so
voltages in the hundreds can do the job.

Tasers and other personnel-control shocking devices are designed to be
current limited to make them non-lethal.

Whether you get a shock from 1 wire depends on whether the circuit has a
current path through earth ground.  A hand-held shock device, for example,
has no ground connection, so 2 electrodes are necessary.  An electric fence,
on the other hand, uses an earth ground, so you can get a shock by touching
only 1 wire.

Regards,
Doug


Tal Bejerano - AMC at spam_OUTkooterTakeThisOuTspamZAHAV.NET.IL wrote on 5/24/02 6:01 PM:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\05\25@154100 by Tal Bejerano - AMC

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Hi

the *question* is in subject of this email.
are all those HV shockers can kill?
what is the maximum voltage that cant harm?
can it give an electric shock only from one ("hot") wire or must have both
HV ends? "hot" and "ground".



Regards

Tal Bejerano
AMC - ISRAEL

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2002\05\25@163356 by John Ferrell

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I am no authority on the subject but I do own one for defensive purposes.

The one I have has a couple of wide spaced electrodes (about 2 inches)
shunted by a narrower (? 1-1/2 inches) set. If there is no load across the
wide set there is a substantial blue arc across the narrow pair.  I am
certain it could be lethal if used in the chest area or perhaps the head.

I bought it to fend off aggressive dogs when I am walking mine on a leash.
My dog is a large but very gentle creature, I have to be tough enough for
both of us! So far, if I simply hold the device up where the charging dog
can see it and activate it, the dog retreats. I hope it stays that way.

{Original Message removed}

2002\05\26@141124 by Peter L. Peres

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On Sat, 25 May 2002, Tal Bejerano - AMC wrote:

>Hi
>
>the *question* is in subject of this email.
>are all those HV shockers can kill?
>what is the maximum voltage that cant harm?
>can it give an electric shock only from one ("hot") wire or must have both
>HV ends? "hot" and "ground".

Legally 48V is the maximum limit for wet hands. Probably this is why they
want to convert cars to this voltage soon. 28V will give a definite nasty
sensation in combination with salt water at least (my experience). In
theory at least someone with open wounds can be killed dead by a 9V
battery. Hospital grade equipment requires that stray currents be kept
under 0.1mA. You need to specify in what context you want the maximum
voltage.

If you want to make a current flow through something it needs to go
somewhere, so yes, you need a return path. However if it is AC of high
frequency then the return path can be formed by the capacitance of the
remainder of the body that touches the hot wire. This is easily
demonstrated with any handheld or manpack radio at 25W or more in VHF or
higher. Just grab the end of the antenna while someone is transmitting.

Tasers and other such toys are bipolar, they have two prongs that arc
(impressive) and/or touch the victim. They are painful but relatively
harmless. There was a news story some time ago in this country about a
thief who was caught in flagrant by a policeman, then tried to zap the
policeman with a taser (in the neck ?), at which the policeman got upset
and nearly beat him to death.

Now, why are you asking this ?

Peter

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2002\05\26@151652 by Joe Farr

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snip

>>salt water at least (my experience). In
>>theory at least someone with open wounds can be killed dead by a 9V
>>battery.
as opposed to being killed but still alive ;-)

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2002\05\26@170106 by Russell McMahon

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> the *question* is in subject of this email.
> are all those HV shockers can kill?
> what is the maximum voltage that cant harm?
> can it give an electric shock only from one ("hot") wire or must have both
> HV ends? "hot" and "ground".

I controlled tests (which obviously were not well enough controlled) 12
volts DC applied across the chest of a volunteer caused death. This would be
exceptional but is obviously possible. DC and AC produce somewhat different
results but the safe conclusion is that any HV shocker COULD cause death.
YMMV.



       Russell McMahon

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2002\05\26@180843 by Jinx

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> I controlled tests (which obviously were not well enough
> controlled) 12 volts DC applied across the chest of a
> volunteer caused death

You did mean to say "IN controlled tets......" ?

Or are you the elusive Westie Avenger, cleaning the
streets of hoons and scumbags, wandering the highways
and byways of suburban Auckland with your undies on
the outside, armed only with a car battery and a set of
nipple clamps ?

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2002\05\26@181050 by Russell McMahon

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Aaarrghh !!! - most unfortunate typo here

       > I controlled tests

Should have read

       "IN controlled tests ..."
> (which obviously were not well enough controlled) 12
> volts DC applied across the chest of a volunteer caused death.


I haven't managed to kill anyone with any of my tests (controlled or
otherwise)(yet).



       Russell McMahon

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2002\05\26@182955 by Jinx

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> Aaarrghh !!! - most unfortunate typo here
>
>         > I controlled tests
>
> Should have read
>
>         "IN controlled tests ..."

Too late - the genie is out of the bottle, the toothpaste is
out of the tube. Denying once more you're a vigilante
will merely confirm that you are

BTW, what mug would volunteer to get his/her heart
zapped ? And if 12VDC can really kill surely that raises
all sorts of safety issues. A "Do not use in shower" warning
label on a hair-dryer I can understand but batteries......... ?

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2002\05\26@210354 by Russell McMahon

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Are you by any chance volunteering to participate in one of my controlled
tests then ? :-)


{Quote hidden}

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2002\05\27@143658 by Peter L. Peres

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On Sun, 26 May 2002, Joe Farr wrote:

>snip
>
>>>salt water at least (my experience). In
>>>theory at least someone with open wounds can be killed dead by a 9V
>>>battery.
>
>as opposed to being killed but still alive ;-)

Oh, you could be killed clinically dead, which is worse I think.

Peter

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2002\05\28@101721 by Rex Byrns

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In rural America, one can get a battery powered electric fence charger for
under $40.  If you built a cage out of insulated rods where eachrod
alternated between ground and HOT, you should be able to fix up a nice
shield that wont kill the sensitive electronics in your auto.

I use one such charger on a fence around my pasture to keep the cows and
horse in.  My kids have a knack for turning it on while I am inside it.  I
have been barefooted in mud and been hit by it, (more than once) and lived
to tell about it.

{Original Message removed}

2002\05\28@133231 by Cris Wilson

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At 10:37 PM 5/25/2002 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi
>
>the *question* is in subject of this email.
>are all those HV shockers can kill?
>what is the maximum voltage that cant harm?
>can it give an electric shock only from one ("hot") wire or must have both
>HV ends? "hot" and "ground".

Supposedly they are designed not to kill. I've used a stun gun on myself
multiple times to remove scorpions and stop the pain of their stabs.
I haven't ever felt my heart skip or anything,of course I haven't applied
the thing to my chest or head either - I don't trust them that much.

You might want to consider the possibility that after the intruder gets
shocked that it will just make them mad and they will bash in your
radio out of spite.

BTW, those scorpions are the tiny non-lethal ones that we have
in the SE of the US. Hitting them with a stun gun makes them
break loose without their stinger staying in you and messes up
their poison. If you use a stun gun on the bite, it doesn't swell
up, hurt, or kill the skin.


_____________________________________________________________
Cris Wilson
Information Resource Consultant
College of Architecture, Arts, and Humanities
Clemson University
spamBeGonecrisspamBeGonespamclemson.edu
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2002\05\28@151004 by ISO-8859-1?Q?Ruben_J=F6nsson?=

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> At 10:37 PM 5/25/2002 +0200, you wrote:
> >Hi
> >
> >the *question* is in subject of this email.
> >are all those HV shockers can kill?
> >what is the maximum voltage that cant harm?
> >can it give an electric shock only from one ("hot") wire or must have
> >both HV ends? "hot" and "ground".
>
> Supposedly they are designed not to kill. I've used a stun gun on
> myself multiple times to remove scorpions and stop the pain of their
> stabs. I haven't ever felt my heart skip or anything,of course I
> haven't applied the thing to my chest or head either - I don't trust
> them that much.
>
We manufacture high voltage generators for electrostatic discharging. They have been tested against a german safety regulation (don't remember which , but can look it up) which says that the output short circuit current must be below 3mA for AC and 11mA for DC and that the charge energy must be below ???mJ (I don't remember the figure but can look it up when I get back to work). I don't think there is any maximum limit for the voltage, though.. This applies to mains connected equipment for static charge removal - It may be different for other type of equipment.

Ruben
==============================
Ruben Jönsson
AB Liros Elektronik
Box 9124, 200 39 Malmö, Sweden
TEL INT +46 40142078
FAX INT +46 40947388
RemoveMErubenspamTakeThisOuTpp.sbbs.se
==============================

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