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'[EE]: FCC Part 15 approval/band selection'
2001\07\04@035535 by Spehro Pefhany

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Hi,

A project requires a very low power, low bandwidth, short distance
(10~20m) RF link.

The frequency is open, however minimizing the transmission power,
receiver power, he time to reception from power-up, and getting
consistent range in differing conditions (no strange behavior) are
important considerations. Minimum size is essential.

1)      Any suggestions as to the frequency? I see there are possible
       bands from almost DC to almost IR, with varying maximum field
       strength levels etc. To minimize the size, I'm currently
       thinking of something in the 400MHz range, which will allow
       an etched PCB antenna to be used, and allow relatively
       accurate and inexpensive SAW filters to be used. Comments?

2)      Has anyone gone through the FCC approval process? Cost and time
       estimates?  The testing should be very straightforward for
       a portable device, and FCC claims < 30 days for 90% of applications,
       (the application includes a test report the manufacturer must
       provide) but.. any firsthand knowledge?

Best regards,
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2001\07\07@215010 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>A project requires a very low power, low bandwidth, short distance
>(10~20m) RF link.

       Do you have eyesight? Can you see the other end? So why not use an "el cheapo" laser keychain connected to a max232?

>The frequency is open, however minimizing the transmission power,
>receiver power, he time to reception from power-up, and getting
>consistent range in differing conditions (no strange behavior) are
>important considerations. Minimum size is essential.

       maybe garage tx/rx units?

>2)      Has anyone gone through the FCC approval process? Cost and time
>        estimates?  The testing should be very straightforward for
>        a portable device, and FCC claims < 30 days for 90% of applications,
>        (the application includes a test report the manufacturer must
>        provide) but.. any firsthand knowledge?

       Light does not need the FCC aproval ;o)


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2001\07\07@220457 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 10:51 PM 7/7/01 -0300, you wrote:
>>A project requires a very low power, low bandwidth, short distance
>>(10~20m) RF link.
>
>        Do you have eyesight? Can you see the other end? So why not use an
"el cheapo" laser keychain connected to a max232?

No, the direction is not known, and it could be in blazing sunlight, so IR
or visible light probably won't work. It was under consideration, though.

>        maybe garage tx/rx units?

Yes, that's what I have to design. The garage units don't have to be very
low power though, and that's a consideration here. ISTR they operate at
50MHz or so, so they are physically fairly large, at least the old ones are.
The keyless entry systems operate at higher frequencies, so the antenna is
tiny.

>        Light does not need the FCC aproval ;o)

It would have to be *very* low frequency light to interest the FCC..

Thanks for your comments, Alexandre.

Best regards,

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2001\07\08@095619 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>Yes, that's what I have to design. The garage units don't have to be very
>low power though, and that's a consideration here. ISTR they operate at
>50MHz or so, so they are physically fairly large, at least the old ones are.
>The keyless entry systems operate at higher frequencies, so the antenna is
>tiny.

       IIRC, the newer tx/rx pairs, used UHF. And they ARE low power. Around 10mW.


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2001\07\08@105232 by Spehro Pefhany
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At 10:57 AM 7/8/01 -0300, you wrote:
>
>  IIRC, the newer tx/rx pairs, used UHF.

Interesting. Do you know what band, by any chance?

> And they ARE low power. Around 10mW.

I have less than 1% of that available, but it might
be possible to use such a receiver/transmitter with some
cleverness. (if it was easy, anyone could do it..)
Thanks.

Best regards,

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2001\07\08@121350 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>>  IIRC, the newer tx/rx pairs, used UHF.
>Interesting. Do you know what band, by any chance?

       Unfortunately not. I'll look for more info on these. The circuits are very simple, but I never looked for more info, I only buy then and modify for data tx/rx.

>> And they ARE low power. Around 10mW.
>I have less than 1% of that available, but it might
>be possible to use such a receiver/transmitter with some
>cleverness. (if it was easy, anyone could do it..)

       1mW? Man, you ARE looking for trouble :o)


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2001\07\08@140005 by Terence Gunderson

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Greetings:

Before reinventing the wheel and going for FCC Type compliance (about
$10,000)
I would investigatye off the shelf solutions with type acceptance.

http://www.linxtechnologies.com/main.html

Try this sight and see if they have what you need.

Terry

{Original Message removed}

2001\07\08@141854 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 12:57 PM 7/8/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Greetings:
>
>Before reinventing the wheel and going for FCC Type compliance (about
>$10,000)

Really? Under Part 15? The procedure looks like almost a rubber-stamp
(albeit a somwhat expensive $900US rubber stamp) once you have the test
report done for them.

Best regards,

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2001\07\08@143534 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>>Before reinventing the wheel and going for FCC Type compliance (about
>>$10,000)
>Really? Under Part 15? The procedure looks like almost a rubber-stamp
>(albeit a somwhat expensive $900US rubber stamp) once you have the test
>report done for them.

       But how much does the "acreditted labs" charge for compliance testing? :o)


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2001\07\08@155026 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 03:35 PM 7/8/01 -0300, you wrote:

>        But how much does the "acreditted labs" charge for compliance
testing? :o)

I'd be really surprised if it was more than $2-$3K*. Unless your own test
equipment
is so bad or nonexistent that you send it to them with harmonics from DC to
daylight, I don't see why you'd need more than a measurement of the field
strength of
what's coming off your product. (the antenna must be tested along with the
device for
Part 15). It should be a fair bit simpler than UL or CSA on a completed
product.

* but that's also why I'm asking..

Best regards,


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2001\07\08@155502 by Peter L. Peres

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Of course you know that you could use low frequency signals (~100kHz etc)
over 20m with no problems (using miniature ferrite stick antennas on both
ends). The coding would remove any (?) noise problems. I have done remote
control with 60kHz using ferrite antennas and antenna/loop combinations in
the past and it works very well. It is trivial to achieve 2kHz or less
bandwidth at that frequency (FM), and this removes local noise almost
completely. My longest distance was 8m but the devices were
over-engineered and they would have worked at twice the distance. I do not
know if it is legal in the US though.

For a garage door opener I'd try infrared keyfob style tx and a normal IR
remote receiver with some simple optical enhancements to help the aiming.
At 20m a LED with 2 x 15 degrees beam opening will cover about 10x10m^2 of
target. With 2 inch plastic optics on a standard 0.04"^2 sensor the range
should be 10 times the range without optics.

Peter

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2001\07\08@215154 by Ann & David Scott

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From: Terence Gunderson <TakeThisOuTtgunderEraseMEspamspam_OUTGTE.NET>
> Before reinventing the wheel and going for FCC Type compliance (about
> $10,000)
> I would investigatye off the shelf solutions with type acceptance.
>
> http://www.linxtechnologies.com/main.html
>

I agree with not reinventing the wheel but Linx has always seemed too $$ to me.  Couldn't you use:

http://www.laipac.com/msg5.htm

315, 418 & 433.92Mhz     8mW
$4.8 USD for each Tx or Rx.
They also sell encoder/decoder chips which make it easier.
Their datasheet is brief but shows circuit to make it work (worked for me).

But, as I think about it, I don't think they come with an approval.  But surely they've been down this road before and know how to
handle the situation.  And I bet it's hard to run a company selling modules that won't pass the rules.

At any rate, my experience has been these are handy modules with which to link MCUs.  Has anybody else used these?

DScott

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2001\07\09@090920 by Gordon Varney (personal)

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The Laws changed a year or two ago,  regarding Part 15.  Several labs are now capable of testing,  filling all paperwork
and granting authorization to Part 15 products. The turn can be as little as two weeks for testing and approval. The
dollar amount has changed as well. Most labs charged $6k to $12k depending on the product and the type of testing. Now
the labs can process everything and the price has gone down considerably. I will be going through the new process very
soon. I am interested in seeing what the difference in time and dollars will be.


Gordon Varney



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2001\07\10@180605 by Peter L. Peres

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> IIRC, the newer tx/rx pairs, used UHF. And they ARE low power.  Around
> 10mW.

10mW in UHF is not so little. Afaik with 10mW into a dipole + reflector
you can go over a mile line of sight. It all depends on what modulation
and receiver N/F.

Peter

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