Post by thread:[EE]: Eagle symbol layout help!

Help! I've been struggling with Eagle for a couple of hours now. I am trying to create a part for the 18f452. I've created the part, named it, used a DIP40 layout, but now I'm trying to get the symbol in there. What I'd like to do is copy an existing symbol from the library (a 16f877) and just modify it. But I can't seem to copy it. I can insert the f877 symbol, but then if I modify it, I'm pretty sure it will modify it for the 16f877 part entry as well. I have tried opening up the symbol editor with the f877 part, copying it, then opening the 18f452 part and trying to paste it, but it says the paste buffer is empty. Does anyone know what I can do to accomplish this? I am using Eagle 4.09r2. I know that by now I could have just started from scratch and created a part, but I'm not so clear on all the layers and the like. I am also really confused about naming nets and then having them magically connect together in the layout. I wish I could associate a the Vcc and Vss nets with the +V and ground symbols so when I plop those in, the correct things are put to power or ground. I haven't tried to actually layout a board yet as I can't complete any of my schematics without creating parts...which I'm not doing so well at. Maybe I'm missing something that will become self evident at that time. I don't really know. At the moment all I wish to do is finish my 18f452 so I can start using it! Thanks for any help! Josh -- A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> I have tried opening up the symbol editor > with the f877 part, copying it, then opening the 18f452 part and trying > to paste it, but it says the paste buffer is empty. Does anyone know > what I can do to accomplish this? Eagle uses misleading names for some commands. You copy with the CUT command, which leaves the original there. And the WIRE command draws lines, except when they are wires, in which case you use the NET command. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

Aha, I will try this directly after lunch. Thank you Olin. I have been trying my best with Eagle. It's somewhat confusing, but I think I have been doing ok working through the tutorial and just drawing schematics. The big question will be whether or not I can then generate boards from them. I'm quite sure I'm missing something simple in the way the various power and ground nets are supposed to connect together on the board, but don't need to be physically connected with a net on the schematic. Josh -- A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams Olin Lathrop wrote: > Eagle uses misleading names for some commands. You copy with the CUT > command, which leaves the original there. And the WIRE command draws > lines, except when they are wires, in which case you use the NET command. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> I'm quite sure I'm missing something simple in the way the various > power and ground nets are supposed to connect together on the board, but > don't need to be physically connected with a net on the schematic. Eagle will automatically connect a net and any power pins on devices if they have the same name. Personally, I don't like this at all. First, power connections should be shown in the schematic properly. Second, there may be several power supplies, and I don't like the idea that Eagle might implicitly hook a chip to one of them. I always label my power nets something like "+5V" to avoid any chance of accidentally being connected to pins named "Vcc". Unfortunately then Eagle insists on complaining about a power pin not connected to a net of the same name in the ERC, which makes it that much more difficult to spot a real problem. Argh! ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> Eagle will automatically connect a net and any power pins on > devices if > they have the same name. Personally, I don't like this at > all. I agree. Additional reason: it confuses those who read the diagram, especially because some chips have such implicit power pins, and some don't (PICs, with their own clever names Vdd and Vss). Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

Evidently you have had the same problems with Eagle as me - many of the commands are counter-intuitive, and compared to some older software (DOS, not windoze), it's dreadful! The only thing in its' favour is price! I (and some collegues) have been working on an open-source PCB designer, and have been trying to avoid all the pitfalls that we've seen with other PCB software. The "learning curve" with most seems to be excessively high..... Since it's an open-source project, it's ONLY written for X-windows. A version will be on Sunsite in the immediate future. Chris {Original Message removed}

> Evidently you have had the same problems with Eagle as me - many of the > commands are counter-intuitive, and compared to some older software (DOS, > not windoze), it's dreadful! The only thing in its' favour is price! Eagle, like any complex software, has its quirks and share of dubious design decisions. However on the whole I think it is a reasonable package for what it is trying to do. It is a LOT easier to learn than other PCB software I've looked at, and generally does a decent job. My main wish list for Eagle includes: 1 - Allow packages, symbols, and devices to come from different libraries. In other words, I'd like to make a library of packages, for example, then reference that from all other libraries that contain symbols and parts. 2 - Allow alternate symbols within the same device. For example, most of the time I'd like to show an NPN transistor with the base on the left, collector on top, and emitter on the bottom. Sometimes I might want to show the same transistor with the base on the right. Eagle forces you to create a separate part for that. 3 - Add several (an unlimited number) of user definable fields to each device. These would be useful for exporting a bill of materials with vendor names, manufacturer names, internal part numbers, etc. > I (and some collegues) have been working on an open-source PCB designer, and > have been trying to avoid all the pitfalls that we've seen with other PCB > software. It would take *many* man years just to get where Eagle is now, which is available for only the price of a few man-days. > The "learning curve" with most seems to be excessively high..... > Since it's an open-source project, it's ONLY written for X-windows. A > version will be on Sunsite in the immediate future. I guess another advantage of Eagle then is that it runs on Windows. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

Evidently you have had the same problems with Eagle as me - many of the commands are counter-intuitive, and compared to some older software (DOS, not windoze), it's dreadful! The only thing in its' favour is price! Also in it's favor is that it is IMPROVING. When I first tried Eagle, there was version 3.5x or so, and I found the learning curve so steep that I wrote it off as unusable (that was back when the tutorial was based on the command-line versions for most commands.) More recently, when I tried 4.x, it was MUCH BETTER. Most things are now somewhat intuitive and available via a GUI, and the library search capability is quite nice. There remain three annoyances: 1) "wire" vs "net" for connecting signals. Hmm. Maybe I should download the German language version and see if I remember enough German to tell whether this is wholely a language/translation issue. You can get used to this one pretty quickly, though. 2) The whole "copy" thing. It's not that it's BAD, really, it's just quite different than ... every window system ever written. Jarringly so. (don't forget all those gates that you can't "duplicate" but CAN group/cut/paste... to copy...) 3) Library management. There are some bandaids for this, but it's still really annoying... This is supposed to be addressed in 5.x due out sometime next year. BillW -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

Perhaps getting it to run under cygwin would be a possibility. I don't run X on any of the machines I'd use to design on, so I'm out. To be honest, I don't even know how hard it is to get programs to run under cygwin. Someday when I get a chance I want to try gpsim. Josh -- A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams Chris Hunter wrote: > I (and some collegues) have been working on an open-source PCB designer, and > have been trying to avoid all the pitfalls that we've seen with other PCB > software. The "learning curve" with most seems to be excessively high..... > Since it's an open-source project, it's ONLY written for X-windows. A > version will be on Sunsite in the immediate future. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

(replies inline the quotation) Olin Lathrop wrote: <snip> > > My main wish list for Eagle includes: > > 1 - Allow packages, symbols, and devices to come from different libraries. > In other words, I'd like to make a library of packages, for example, then > reference that from all other libraries that contain symbols and parts. Oh yes, this is on the very top of my "wishlist" for eagle. I find myself doing copy and paste to my own set of libraries nearly every day... And have you ever compared all the different plcc packages in the various libraries? Which one do I take today? I think Cadsoft has to work a little to bring more consistency in the existing libs. > > 2 - Allow alternate symbols within the same device. For example, most of > the time I'd like to show an NPN transistor with the base on the left, > collector on top, and emitter on the bottom. Sometimes I might want to > show the same transistor with the base on the right. Eagle forces you to > create a separate part for that. You can mirror or rotate the part before actually placing it (the second button bar from the top). And of course you can do later if you want. No need to edit libraries nor symbols. > > 3 - Add several (an unlimited number) of user definable fields to each > device. These would be useful for exporting a bill of materials with > vendor names, manufacturer names, internal part numbers, etc. > The bom.ulp in <eagle program dir>\ulp has some (but not all) of your required features. Florian Voelzke {Quote hidden}> >>I (and some collegues) have been working on an open-source PCB designer, > > and > >>have been trying to avoid all the pitfalls that we've seen with other > > PCB > >>software. > > > It would take *many* man years just to get where Eagle is now, which is > available for only the price of a few man-days. > > >>The "learning curve" with most seems to be excessively high..... >>Since it's an open-source project, it's ONLY written for X-windows. A >>version will be on Sunsite in the immediate future. > > > I guess another advantage of Eagle then is that it runs on Windows. > > > ***************************************************************** > Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts > (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics > (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics > > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

William Chops Westfield wrote: > Evidently you have had the same problems with Eagle as me - many of the > commands are counter-intuitive, and compared to some older software (DOS, > not windoze), it's dreadful! The only thing in its' favour is price! > > Also in it's favor is that it is IMPROVING. When I first tried Eagle, there > was version 3.5x or so, and I found the learning curve so steep that I wrote > it off as unusable (that was back when the tutorial was based on the > command-line versions for most commands.) More recently, when I tried 4.x, > it was MUCH BETTER. Most things are now somewhat intuitive and available > via a GUI, and the library search capability is quite nice. There remain > three annoyances: > > 1) "wire" vs "net" for connecting signals. Hmm. Maybe I should download > the German language version and see if I remember enough German to tell > whether this is wholely a language/translation issue. You can get used > to this one pretty quickly, though. That will not help, the german version contains the same english program, only the help is in german. And they don't have any better explanation in there... {Quote hidden}> 2) The whole "copy" thing. It's not that it's BAD, really, it's just quite > different than ... every window system ever written. Jarringly so. > (don't forget all those gates that you can't "duplicate" but CAN > group/cut/paste... to copy...) > 3) Library management. There are some bandaids for this, but it's still > really annoying... This is supposed to be addressed in 5.x due out > sometime next year. > > BillW > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics > (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics > > > Florian Voelzke -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> You can mirror or rotate the part before actually placing it (the second > button bar from the top). And of course you can do later if you want. No > need to edit libraries nor symbols. Yes you can rotate and mirror the symbols, but then the name, value, and possibly other graphics often end up in inconvenient places. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 01:31:34PM -0500, Olin Lathrop wrote: > Eagle uses misleading names for some commands. You copy with the CUT > command, which leaves the original there. Holy CRAP... I can't tell you how many times I've cursed at Eagle because I couldn't copy a symbol from one library to another. Stupid me.. I should have known that this was *cutting* not *copying*... duh! Thanks for the tip. I always thought the COPY command was broken and useless. -Dave -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Josh Koffman wrote: *>Perhaps getting it to run under cygwin would be a possibility. I don't *>run X on any of the machines I'd use to design on, so I'm out. To be *>honest, I don't even know how hard it is to get programs to run under *>cygwin. Someday when I get a chance I want to try gpsim. You only need a display to run X11 (not X) on. Your PC will work as a display. The Unix box need not have a display OR keyboard to run X11. Of course you need a network card in each. Freeware (not high quality) solutions to run X11 displays on a PC exist (like VNC and several X11 remote servers - in X11 the part of the system with the keyboard and the screen is the server). Peter -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

part 1 1005 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit) > 1 - Allow packages, symbols, and devices to come from > different libraries. Agreed > Sometimes I might want to > show the same transistor with the base on the right. Eagle > forces you to create a separate part for that. Can't you just mirror the part, as in the attached gif? plus: - make it easy to copy a part + package etc. from one lib to another.I use a small number of parts again and again, an it is a PITA to remember in which lib each part is. Plus I want to modify the hole diameters (Olimex! and no, I don't want to use drillcfg or something like that because I just sent Olimex my .brd file, nothing else). >> Since it's an open-source project, it's ONLY written for >> X-windows. I don't see the logic in that. But is surely a way to keep the use limited... Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products part 2 1609 bytes content-type:image/gif; (decode) part 3 136 bytes -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email .....listservKILLspam.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> Yes you can rotate and mirror the symbols, but then the name, > value, and possibly other graphics often end up in inconvenient places. Then you separate name and symbolo (squash) anb move them around individually? Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservspam_OUTTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

part 1 1585 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit) > Can't you just mirror the part, as in the attached gif? You can, but then the name and value text may not come out where you like. Most of the time I want to anchor the text differently for a rotated or mirrored symbol. See the attached image. The symbols for R1 and R3 were specifically designed for their orientation. R2 and R4 were each rotated from the symbols above them. > - make it easy to copy a part + package etc. from one lib to another.I > use a small number of parts again and again, an it is a PITA to remember > in which lib each part is. Yes, that would be nice too. When I first started using Eagle, I deliberately made all my own packages, symbols, and devices to learn the package better. For the first "real" project I started to use the Cadsoft libraries and was very dissappointed. The pads were strange shapes with no identification of pin 1, and the symbols looked like there were hastily done and often just strange (maybe that's a European thing). So I continued to mostly build my own libraries. It seems like every project needs a few new custom parts anyway, and I've got enough of a base now that most of the general parts are already available. On one project about 9 months ago I needed a standard 74HC glue chip, so I grabbed it from a Cadsoft Eagle library. Believe it or not, the customer actually happened to notice the oblong pad shapes and lack of pin 1 identification and ask me "why did you do that one differently"? That's when I started my own 74xxx library. part 2 3195 bytes content-type:image/gif; (decode) part 3 310 bytes ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> Then you separate name and symbolo (squash) anb move them around > individually? That wouldn't be so bad if you could then unsquash them to fix them in the new relative position. Unfortunately unsquashing them reverts them to the original position. I don't like the idea of name and value text dangling around independently in the schematic where they might get confused as applying to a different part. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email @spam@listservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

I use a small number of parts again and again, an it is a PITA to remember in which lib each part is. You know about the "user" menu? There's an option to get a text-labeled menu on the right side of the screen, and while the defaults are a pretty useless duplication of the left-hand GUI menu, it's all user-definable. I've created lovely "R, C, CPOL, GND, and VCC" items that do things like "add r-us/RemoveME0207TakeThisOuTrcl.lib;", thereby bypassing most of the normal add/search dialog. Thanks to the underlying CLI-nature of Eagle, you can even drop into the add dialog at different places (ie pick the component by open up the window to select a package...) BillW -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email spamBeGonelistservspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

I've tried the Linux version, and still don't get on with it..... Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter L. Peres" <TakeThisOuTplpEraseMEspam_OUTACTCOM.CO.IL> To: <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 6:06 AM Subject: Re: [EE]: Eagle symbol layout help! {Quote hidden}> On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Chris Hunter wrote: > > *>> I guess another advantage of Eagle then is that it runs on Windows. > *> > *>In our part of the world, that's a major DISadvantage! > > What's your problem Chris ? I run and always have run Eagle on Linux. When > I run Eagle that is. > > Peter > > -- > http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! > email listservEraseME.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body > > -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Well, I've run into this problem. I am using a couple of chips from Cadsoft's library, and they don't show the power pins as they try to route them invisibly. Well, that's all well and good, but I don't have my power nets named the same as the chips do, so they won't get connected on the board. I could just add the traces manually on the board, but I want to try using the autorouter, and this will screw me up. Short of remaking the symbols, is there any way to connect the two nets? Josh -- A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams Olin Lathrop wrote: > Eagle will automatically connect a net and any power pins on devices if > they have the same name. Personally, I don't like this at all. First, > power connections should be shown in the schematic properly. Second, > there may be several power supplies, and I don't like the idea that Eagle > might implicitly hook a chip to one of them. I always label my power nets > something like "+5V" to avoid any chance of accidentally being connected > to pins named "Vcc". Unfortunately then Eagle insists on complaining > about a power pin not connected to a net of the same name in the ERC, > which makes it that much more difficult to spot a real problem. Argh! -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu

> Well, I've run into this problem. I am using a couple of chips from > Cadsoft's library, and they don't show the power pins as they try to > route them invisibly. Well, that's all well and good, but I don't have > my power nets named the same as the chips do, so they won't get > connected on the board. I could just add the traces manually on the > board, but I want to try using the autorouter, and this will screw me > up. Short of remaking the symbols, is there any way to connect the two > nets? I don't know. I make my own symbols. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu

Ok, perhaps I phrased the question a bit badly. How about this. Other than drawing a connecting net between two other nets, and having that little window "Connect XXX to YYY?" pop up, is there a way to specify that two nets are to be connected? Josh -- A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams Olin Lathrop wrote: > I don't know. I make my own symbols. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

> Ok, perhaps I phrased the question a bit badly. How about this. Other > than drawing a connecting net between two other nets, and having that > little window "Connect XXX to YYY?" pop up, is there a way to specify > that two nets are to be connected? Not that I know of. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestSTOPspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu

Hi- I case you were not aware, there is several user forums at: http://www.cadsoft.de/forum.htm where you can ask these questions to a wider audience. I suspect you can say NET XYZ on the command line and then draw the net, and it will be connected. David Josh Koffman wrote: {Quote hidden}> Ok, perhaps I phrased the question a bit badly. How about this. Other > than drawing a connecting net between two other nets, and having that > little window "Connect XXX to YYY?" pop up, is there a way to specify > that two nets are to be connected? > > Josh > -- > A common mistake that people make when trying to design something > completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete > fools. > -Douglas Adams > > Olin Lathrop wrote: > > I don't know. I make my own symbols. > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList > spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestSTOPspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu -- David Harris OmniPort Home Page: http://www3.telus.net/OmniPort1/ Discussion egroup: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OmniPort Swiki: http://omniport.swiki.net/1 -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList KILLspampiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu

I am doing this now. Edit->Name the net you are drawing and give it the name of the other net. Nets with the same name are connected. Place a name on important nets (use the Net Name icon). If a net appears with the same name on several sheets then you will be asked if the name is local to the current sheet or not when the first collision happens. The trick with the hidden power nets and their strange (and hidden) names sucks. Is there a way to list the nets in a schematic ? Maybe an ULP ? I'd like to have a window showing the names of all the nets. Peter -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

> I am doing this now. Edit->Name the net you are drawing and give it the > name of the other net. Nets with the same name are connected. Place a name > on important nets (use the Net Name icon). If a net appears with the same > name on several sheets then you will be asked if the name is local to the > current sheet or not when the first collision happens. I always explicitly name all power and ground nets, then DRAW LABEL (or whatever it's called) in various places. Since Eagle generates the label automatically from the net name, it is a nice verification that the name is correct. It is also handy when setting up net classes to get specific trace thicknesses and other parameters for power traces. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList @spam@piclist-unsubscribe-request@spam@spam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu

I will have to look at the invoke command. Basically, my solution (which I haven't tried yet, thus haven't posted about) would be to draw two +V symbols, and a small net on each. I'd name one +5V (my convention), and name the other one whatever it is Eagle wants. Then I'd join the two and see what happens. Then I'd do the same for ground. Since the symbols in theory don't have a board layout equivalent, I figured they should join the nets but not show up on the board. Who knows :) I'll be sure to backup my files first... Josh -- A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams William Chops Westfield wrote: > The "invoke" comamnd (another weird name) can be used to add "hidden" > parts of a device to the visible schematic. > > Based on the Cadsoft newsgroups, the "state of the art" for having one > physical net with multiple names seems to be assorted types of zero-ohm > resistors (some of which also have effectively zero size on the board as > well...) -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu

On Fri, 22 Nov 2002, Josh Koffman wrote: *>I will have to look at the invoke command. Basically, my solution (which *>I haven't tried yet, thus haven't posted about) would be to draw two +V *>symbols, and a small net on each. I'd name one +5V (my convention), and *>name the other one whatever it is Eagle wants. Then I'd join the two and *>see what happens. Then I'd do the same for ground. Since the symbols in *>theory don't have a board layout equivalent, I figured they should join *>the nets but not show up on the board. Who knows :) I'll be sure to *>backup my files first... The trick is to find out what eagle wants. Peter -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

On Fri, 22 Nov 2002, William Chops Westfield wrote: *>The "invoke" comamnd (another weird name) can be used to add "hidden" *>parts of a device to the visible schematic. *> *>Based on the Cadsoft newsgroups, the "state of the art" for having one *>physical net with multiple names seems to be assorted types of zero-ohm *>resistors (some of which also have effectively zero size on the board as *>well...) Oh great. Didn't Olin mention he made a special part that allows just this using two touching smd pads placed on the same side and over each other ? Peter -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

> Oh great. Didn't Olin mention he made a special part that allows just this > using two touching smd pads placed on the same side and over each other ? It wasn't me, but it does sound like that would work. Make a special "netshort" part that has two pads which are shorted. I'm not sure whether this would cause trouble with the design rule checks. They might be smart enough to detect the short between two different nets. Another problem is that it doesn't allow the autorouter as much freedom. You still have to place the netshort part at a fixed location. Sometimes that is good, as when connecting an analog and digital ground at a fixed point. Othertimes it might force the autorouter into something inconvenient. Hmm. Just had a thought. What if the netshort part had several Eagle "gates" and these were all set to the same swaplevel. There could be one gate for shorting on each layer, and others for shorting between layers. In theory, shouldn't the autorouter then pick the most convenient one? On the other hand, I've never seen the autorouter switch between swappable gates. Does anyone know if this actually works. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

part 1 1373 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit) > Hmm. Just had a thought. What if the netshort part had several Eagle > "gates" and these were all set to the same swaplevel. There could be one > gate for shorting on each layer, and others for shorting between layers. > In theory, shouldn't the autorouter then pick the most convenient one? On > the other hand, I've never seen the autorouter switch between swappable > gates. Does anyone know if this actually works. I just played around with Eagle a bit and realized the above was a stupid statement. The autorouter isn't smart enough to swap swappable gates or pins. This is meant for the human doing the layout. Oh well, better than nothing. Most of the time when you have separate nets that are supposed to be connected at at single point, you care where that point is physically anyway. I played around with netshort devices, and two abutting SMD pads seemed to work best. As I thought, everything I tried was flagged by the DRC, but two abutting SMDs cause only a single complaint. They should turn into one simple copper rectangle in the end with minimum wasted space. The attached file is the Eagle library I created. I've left a clear path for adding shorts of different widths. I did try this in a schematic and a board, and everything seemed to work. For whatever it's worth... part 2 2489 bytes content-type:application/octet-stream; (decode) part 3 328 bytes ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

Hej Olin Lathrop. Tack för ditt meddelande 17:25 2002-11-23 enligt nedan: >> Hmm. Just had a thought. What if the netshort part had several Eagle >> "gates" and these were all set to the same swaplevel. -snip- >I just played around with Eagle a bit and realized the above was a stupid >statement. Not stupid! The idea is very smart, but for Eagle: >The autorouter isn't smart enough to swap swappable gates or >pins. I guess gatespap/pinswap with this would work for Ultiboard CAD, as long as there is a tiny gap between the pads not to violate DRC. I actually have practised this to have good control of current paths and star ground in switched power supply design, but without gatespap/pinswap, using Ultiboard. There I can set clearance to zero for theese pads, so in theory they may be touching, byt i agreed with my PCB mftr that he could not guarantee there will be no gap between after gerber and photoplotting processes anyway so i put them a tiny bit apart i I can see they are not really connected to begin with. So i ended up with a symbol with two small pads very close to each other, autorouting working, and as final step i turn off DRC check and connect the pads by routing manually. /Morgan -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

> Ok, perhaps I phrased the question a bit badly. How about this. Other > than drawing a connecting net between two other nets, and having that > little window "Connect XXX to YYY?" pop up, is there a way to specify > that two nets are to be connected? Is it not possible to have a wire with named drop points, so you would show a connection to 5V, and then have named wires of Vcc, Vdd etc off it ? -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Can you tell I need to clean up my email folders. :-) Olin, thanks for posting your Eagle library for PICs. ( [PIC:] Eagle Library thread ) It was just what I needed (a clear example of parts I know) to get me off my duff and building my own library. I thought you explained in this thread from last year why you include ">NAME" on the package twice but don't see it here. What was the explanation again? Didn't it have something to do with being able to see the label before and after populating the board? thanks chuckc {Original Message removed}

> I thought you explained in this thread from last year why you include > ">NAME" > on the package twice but don't see it here. What was the explanation > again? Didn't it have something to do with being able to see the label > before and after > populating the board? I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you give a specific instance where this occurs so that I can look at it too? ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email TakeThisOuTlistserv.....TakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Charles Craft wrote: > Sorry - it wasn't the 16*F628. > > Here's an example using the SOIC-28 package. OK, I see that there are two >NAME strings defined. I don't see what the problem is though. One is outside the package where it can be seen after the part is installed. The other is easier to see before the package is installed. Afterwards it is covered up. That silkscreen space is otherwise unused, so I don't see any harm at all in putting more information there, even if it's only useful before parts are installed. You have the library, just delete one of the names if you don't want it there. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList TakeThisOuTpiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu