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'[EE]: Displays'
2000\10\22@232753 by Jinx

face picon face
> My ambitious project which I never undertook was to put these
> extra LED's to use on my bicycle wheels. 4 radial strings of
> hexagonally-close-packed RGB triads of PWM'd LED's per
> wheel.

Remember the "grooves in the road" to make sound like a
primitive phonograph ? Come on, lets drag cinematography
kicking and screaming back to the 19th century ;-)

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'[EE]: Displays'
2001\06\28@224218 by Jinx
face picon face
Scott Dattalo wrote on 22/10/00

> > My ambitious project which I never undertook was to put these
> > extra LED's to use on my bicycle wheels. 4 radial strings of
> > hexagonally-close-packed RGB triads of PWM'd LED's per
> > wheel.

Some CART drivers are trialling the WheelFX system, which uses
LEDs on the inside of the wheel to advertise products

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/wheelfx.html

It's not really very distinct, as the view angle is quite narrow and the
solid spokes get in the way. On a wire-spoked wheel it would be a
lot better

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2001\06\29@010528 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
Jinx wrote:

>
>Some CART drivers are trialling the WheelFX system, which uses
>LEDs on the inside of the wheel to advertise products
>
>http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/wheelfx.html
>
>It's not really very distinct, as the view angle is quite narrow and the
>solid spokes get in the way. On a wire-spoked wheel it would be a
>lot better
>

Are you sure that is not a computer-generated overlay?
Much of the advertising you see in TV sports shows is
done this way anymore - like the moving yellow line on
the football [american] field that indicates where the
first down yardage is.

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2001\06\29@020451 by Jinx

face picon face
> Are you sure that is not a computer-generated overlay?

Dan, nope, def LEDs. Check this out (last paragraph)

http://www.cartracingupdate.com/News01/5701newmannazfinish.htm

It's a good idea, I guess, attention-grabbing if nothing else and that's
what ads are all about

> Much of the advertising you see in TV sports shows is
> done this way anymore - like the moving yellow line on
> the football [american] field that indicates where the
> first down yardage is

I watched the IRL from Pikes Peak last week and one of those
overlays had the track temp at 142 !!!!!!!!!!!  I don't watch grid
iron, but I have seen the overlays in baseball and Indy 500.

(Talk to you off-list about it (like I meant to later today, sorry if I
don't get around to it, still a bit fluey and lethargic))

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2001\06\29@031133 by T.C. Phelps

picon face
> Are you sure that is not a computer-generated
> overlay?


I think it's real, because I saw a clock once based on
this technology. It was built somewhat like a
metronome, with a little arm that swings back and
forth. On the arm were a series of LEDs... the arm
swung so fast you could barely see it, and it appeared
that the time and date were "floating" in mid air. It
was a really cool gizmo! I've occasionally thought
about trying to make something really simple along
those lines with an F84.

- Todd.



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2001\06\29@035049 by Bala Chandar

flavicon
face
T.C. Phelps wrote:

> I think it's real, because I saw a clock once based on
> this technology. It was built somewhat like a
> metronome, with a little arm that swings back and
> forth. On the arm were a series of LEDs... the arm
> swung so fast you could barely see it, and it appeared
> that the time and date were "floating" in mid air. It
> was a really cool gizmo! I've occasionally thought
> about trying to make something really simple along
> those lines with an F84.

Is it not the same as Bob Blick's Propeller Clock?
http://www.bobblick.com/bob/projects/mclock/index.html

Regards,
Bala

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2001\06\29@043615 by T.C. Phelps

picon face
--- Bala Chandar <Bala.Chandarspamspam_OUTAVENTIS.COM> wrote:
> Is it not the same as Bob Blick's Propeller Clock?
>
http://www.bobblick.com/bob/projects/mclock/index.html
>
> Regards,
> Bala


Yeah, it's pretty much the same idea -- I found a
picture of the one I saw:

http://www.edgeco.com/cgi-bin/catalog/larger?;SP1-C45;1

I think I'll have a close look at Bob's and see how he
rigged it up. Thanks for the link!

Cheers,
Todd.


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2001\06\29@044907 by Vasile Surducan

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face
On Fri, 29 Jun 2001, Bala Chandar wrote:

> T.C. Phelps wrote:
>
> > I think it's real, because I saw a clock once based on
> > this technology. It was built somewhat like a
> > metronome, with a little arm that swings back and
> > forth. On the arm were a series of LEDs... the arm
> > swung so fast you could barely see it, and it appeared
> > that the time and date were "floating" in mid air. It
> > was a really cool gizmo! I've occasionally thought
> > about trying to make something really simple along
> > those lines with an F84.
>
> Is it not the same as Bob Blick's Propeller Clock?
> http://www.bobblick.com/bob/projects/mclock/index.html
>
 probably is the pictook, pendulum clock written by John Becker ?
published in Everyday Practical Electronics...
I've collect that software in my f84 pic collection at:
www.geocities.com/vsurducan/pic.htm#clock
It's cool, but Bob Blick's propeller clock is unique !...
I've saw here many similar devices used in advertising.
All have the problem when are used in direct sunshine light.
Vasile

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2001\06\29@104413 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
At 05:21 PM 6/29/01 +1200, you wrote:
>> Are you sure that is not a computer-generated overlay?
>
>Dan, nope, def LEDs. Check this out (last paragraph)
>
>www.cartracingupdate.com/News01/5701newmannazfinish.htm
.........
>I watched the IRL from Pikes Peak last week and one of those
>overlays had the track temp at 142 !!!!!!!!!!!  I don't watch grid
>iron, but I have seen the overlays in baseball and Indy 500.


I think they do this with european soccer too. The ads have
become so sophisticated, they can tilt and squeeze them into
odd shapes on the screen, and match up the shading/contrast
- so the audience doesn't know it's being done, and they can
change the ads based upon which part of the world the show is
being sent to. In america we get Big Macs, in Oz they get he-man
trucks.

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2001\06\29@104944 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
T.C. Phelps wrote:
>> Are you sure that is not a computer-generated
>> overlay?
>
>
>I think it's real, because I saw a clock once based on
>this technology. It was built somewhat like a
>metronome, with a little arm that swings back and
>forth. On the arm were a series of LEDs... the arm
>swung so fast you could barely see it, and it appeared
>that the time and date were "floating" in mid air. It
>was a really cool gizmo! I've occasionally thought
>about trying to make something really simple along
>those lines with an F84.
>

Todd,

Scott whatshisname, who makes the serial LCDs, published
an article in Popular Electronics or Electronics Now about
this very thing about 5 of so years back - before he got
famous.

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2001\06\29@105830 by Bob Barr

picon face
"T.C. Phelps" wrote:

>I think it's real, because I saw a clock once based on
>this technology. It was built somewhat like a
>metronome, with a little arm that swings back and
>forth. On the arm were a series of LEDs... the arm
>swung so fast you could barely see it, and it appeared
>that the time and date were "floating" in mid air. It
>was a really cool gizmo! I've occasionally thought
>about trying to make something really simple along
>those lines with an F84.
>

A similar device was used as an on-the-spot programming challenge at a Forth
Interest Group event many years ago. It was called a 'gizmo' and ran off of
a PC parallel port. As the flexible arm swung back and forth, a message had
to be scrolled across 'in the air'.

Prior to the contest, all they knew was that some unspecified device would
operate from the parallel port to perform some unspecified real-time task.

IIRC, a team of two guys got it working in under two hours time.

Bob

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2001\06\30@042649 by Raymond Choat

flavicon
face
You can find lots of these "propeller clocks"  on the internet. This has
already been done with a pic chip.
Wrong Way Ray (Raymond Choat)

{Original Message removed}

2001\06\30@210710 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> You can find lots of these "propeller clocks"  on the internet. This has
> already beHIMIone with a pic chip.
> Wrong Way Ray (Raymond Choat)

There's a new advertising product out now that spins a vertical line of LEDs
on a vertical axis.  It has a PIC on the rotating board that does all the
LED timing to create the pixels, and it also does the font generation.  You
can send messages for it to display via a serial port.


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(978) 742-9014, RemoveMEolinspamTakeThisOuTembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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'[EE]: Displays'
2001\07\01@032015 by Roman Black
flavicon
face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
> There's a new advertising product out now that spins a vertical line of LEDs
> on a vertical axis.  It has a PIC on the rotating board that does all the
> LED timing to create the pixels, and it also does the font generation.  You
> can send messages for it to display via a serial port.


Hi Olin, I once saw a design for a 3D display,
they had a vertical clear plastic panel, rotated
vertically, then projected a scanned laser onto
it from the side. It could generate a complete
3D shape, viewable from all directions. The thing
I liked was that it could generate a shape with the
dimensions quite correct, which looked very handy
for CAD model display.

Haven't seen much about it since. Maybe this could
be done in a lower-res form by using a spinning
panel of leds?? That would look very clever.
-Roman

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2001\07\01@045605 by Robert Rolf

picon face
Spinning LED block has been done. Back in the mid eighties. 6" cube
in a vaccum jar (friction and noise from the spinning cube were lower
in a vaccum).
If I recall correctly they were visualizing cardiac activation
patterns.

Roman Black wrote:
>
> Olin Lathrop wrote:
> >
> > There's a new advertising product out now that spins a vertical line of LEDs
> > on a vertical axis.  It has a PIC on the rotating board that does all the
> > LED timing to create the pixels, and it also does the font generation.  You
> > can send messages for it to display via a serial port.

Look for 'virtual clock' for an existing clock product that
does basically the same thing. "Seen on TV" stores have had it
for the $150C range. Looked pretty cool even though it flickered
a bit. Had about 25 ways to show the time, including text.


{Quote hidden}

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2001\07\01@051726 by Jinx

face picon face
> Hi Olin, I once saw a design for a 3D display,
> they had a vertical clear plastic panel, rotated
> vertically, then projected a scanned laser onto
> it from the side. It could generate a complete
> 3D shape, viewable from all directions. The thing
> I liked was that it could generate a shape with the
> dimensions quite correct, which looked very handy
> for CAD model display.
>
> Haven't seen much about it since. Maybe this could
> be done in a lower-res form by using a spinning
> panel of leds?? That would look very clever.
> -Roman

A few years ago I saw an idea (very enthusiastically presented)
to create 3D images. Imagine a perspex cylinder about 40cm
diameter and about 50cm high. Inside it, central and vertical,
was a reflective helix, one complete 360 degree twist, that
reflected images projected from the bottom of the cylinder. As
the helix turned, the edges of it rose and so the image was
scanned onto the perspex. Although it looked good on 2D TV,
that's another idea that seems to have risen without trace

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2001\07\01@105019 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Jinx wrote:
>
> > Hi Olin, I once saw a design for a 3D display,
> > they had a vertical clear plastic panel, rotated
> > vertically, then projected a scanned laser onto
> > it from the side...
>
> A few years ago I saw an idea (very enthusiastically presented)
> to create 3D images. Imagine a perspex cylinder about 40cm
> diameter and about 50cm high. Inside it, central and vertical,
> was a reflective helix, one complete 360 degree twist, that
> reflected images projected from the bottom of the cylinder. As
> the helix turned, the edges of it rose and so the image was
> scanned onto the perspex. Although it looked good on 2D TV,
> that's another idea that seems to have risen without trace


I like that idea a lot! :o)
You need to spin the helix and the laser, with
one laser axis, (surplus laser printer engine?)
or rig a 2d laser scanner with a spinning helix.

What did you think about the spinning panel of
leds? It might be low-res but could provide a
simply constructed way of doing this...
-Roman

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2001\07\02@030103 by Robert Rolf

picon face
Roman Black wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Unfortunately Texas Instruments has a patent on drawing 3-D images
on a spinning helix. I was royally pissed to discover this in the
late eighties because I'd prototyped it years earlier using a
photocopier lens and a CRT after seeing an article in Byte magazine for
creating a 3-D image using an oscilloscope and a spining mirror.
The byte article even had 8080 code for generating simple vector
graphics.

I didn't have a laser so I just use very bright 9" monitor
to image onto the spinning helix, with the verticle sweep
sychronized with spin so that different pixels mapped to
different heights. With the computer that I used (PDP11/34)
there was no way to do anything -real time-, but it
was an interesting exercise, and looked really good in
a totally dark room. I knew that a laser was the way to go
but couldn't afford anything like that back then.

> What did you think about the spinning panel of
> leds? It might be low-res but could provide a
> simply constructed way of doing this...

As noted earlier, it's been done, and it does work.
I seem to recall seeing the spinning block of LED's mentioned
in Popular Science's 'Science news' column.

> -Roman

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2001\07\02@034955 by Jinx

face picon face
> Unfortunately Texas Instruments has a patent on drawing 3-D
> images on a spinning helix. I was royally pissed to discover
> this in the late eighties because I'd prototyped it years earlier

That is such a PITA. This past week I've been helping a person
Russell MacMahon put on to me. One of my suggestions to him
was to go to IBM's patent database and look around. And there
it was - his idea, a done deal by someone else. Comprehensively
sewn up too. It's a position I've been in many times, not a great
start to the day but there is a finality, if an unpalatable one

On the subject of companies with resources, there's a TV
series on at the moment called Better By Design. Two men
look at existing products and see what they can do to
improve them. Something most of us do from time to time.
With infuriating ease when they want something made, like
a component or model, they just throw money at it. I'm sure
hauling along a TV crew is no impediment to them getting
what they want either. For example they had the Lotus
engineers make them shopping trolley wheels for god's sake.
Lotus engineers ? I try to imagine what that costs

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2001\07\02@113756 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 12:59 AM 7/2/01 -0600, you wrote:

>Unfortunately Texas Instruments has a patent on drawing 3-D images
>on a spinning helix. I was royally pissed to discover this in the
>late eighties...

Can't be more than a few years left on the patent, then.

I recently saw a picture of a demo of a 3-d display in one of the
trade rags, but can't recall the mfr. It was "something" encased
in a clear box, and the part inside was spinning.

Best regards,


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2001\07\02@122411 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> spinning 3D displays

The main reason these dropped out was the scan rate, and few other
reasons. Even the helix has troubles keeping up. It needs to do 3000 rpm
to stay invisible and the scan and video frequencies of the projecting TV
are all multiplied 50 times. Even leaving out the scan proper, and the
required luminous intensity (in theory 50 times larger == 3000W CRT
instead of 60W as is normal for a 19" CRT), a video (pixel) frequency of
50*14 MHz = 520MHz, a frame buffer of 50 times whatever your current frame
buffer size is (like say, 512MB ?), a spinning mass of probably 20 pounds
on a diameter of almost 2*19" at 3000 rpm may have enough gyroscopic
momentum to flip the cabinet over with the rotation of the earth <g>. Any
way the volume usage of the cabinet would be 33% at most (the rest is
taken by the part of the helix cylinder you are not supposed to see). Oh
and I forgot the noise, bearing life, and the electricity bill, plus some
shekels for software that generates 3D and some more to maintain and
expand those programs.

As you see, it's all very easy, but I remember the protoype was very small
(5 inches radius and 5" monitor afair).

Peter

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2001\07\03@123227 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
       Not quite 3D, but I've always wondered about using a cylinder with
mirror facets on it to do the horizontal and vertical scanning of a laser
video projection system. For the US, there'd be 525 mirror faces around
the cylinder, and it would rotate 30 revolutions per second. As the
cylinder rotates, the reflected beam would get a horizontal scan. At the
end of the horizontal scan, another mirror face would rotate into
position dropping the reflected beam down a little and throwing it back
to the left side of the image. Some fancy machining, but seems like it'd
be possible.

Harold



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2001\07\03@135946 by Robert Rolf

picon face
Mechanical scanning has been around since the very beginning of
television.

However your horizontal scan mirror would not work with 525 faces
since you'd only be in the beam for 360degrees/525 =0.68 degressx2,
which is a pretty darned narrow image.

Such a system would typically have a polygon mirror with 16 sides,
giving a 45D scan angle, and use a galvanometer for the vertical
scan (since 120Hz is relatively easy to achieve). Since rotating
at 60,000RPM is a bit of a challenge (15734Hz/16), the beam is
split into several, which are independently modulated such that
you get several lines scanned at once. Essentially the picture
gets show 4 or 8 lines at once.

Today they would use AOM/AOD (acustoptical modulators/deflector) so
there are no moving parts, but the efficiencies of lasers are sooooo
poor that AFAIK there is no commercial system using them now.

Everyone has moved to DLP (Digital Light Processor, Texas Instuments
memory device which uses tiny mirrors deflected by the charge
stored in a RAM cell [grossly simplified explanation]) when
high brightness is required or LCD's when you're not trying
to fill a stadium.


Harold M Hallikainen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\07\03@152907 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Have there been any hobbyist / open designs using the TI DLP? Is the device
available in low quantities? I don't find any in the standard distributors
or by part number on the web except at the mfgrs and some other non-sales
sites.

My interest is mostly for low cost Head mounted HUD or Private Eye type
application so the issues are
A) power consumption... anything with a motor in it is probably not a good
solution
B) vibrations... anything with a motor in it...
C) weight.... anything with a motor in it...
Although I've thought about a mavlev'd mirror rotor in a vacuume tube...

When I saw the DLP I about creamed my jeans but nothing has reached the
little guy that I can find.

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2001\07\09@113822 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Unfortunately Texas Instruments has a patent on drawing 3-D images
>on a spinning helix. I was royally pissed to discover this in the
>late eighties because I'd prototyped it years earlier using a
>photocopier lens and a CRT after seeing an article in Byte magazine for
>creating a 3-D image using an oscilloscope and a spining mirror.
>The byte article even had 8080 code for generating simple vector
>graphics.

Could you not use the Byte article as an example of "prior art" if
challenged? I have heard of people getting articles printed in obscure
newspapers in places like Iceland so as to have the "prior art" publishing
available, while having the article printed in a place where it was not
likely to be seen by anyone in the trade while they got their item to a
producible point, but no-one else could patent it as it was now published.

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2001\07\09@123050 by Chris Carr

flavicon
face
> >Unfortunately Texas Instruments has a patent on drawing 3-D images
> >on a spinning helix. I was royally pissed to discover this in the
> >late eighties because I'd prototyped it years earlier using a
> >photocopier lens and a CRT after seeing an article in Byte magazine for
> >creating a 3-D image using an oscilloscope and a spining mirror.
> >The byte article even had 8080 code for generating simple vector
> >graphics.
>
> Could you not use the Byte article as an example of "prior art" if
> challenged? I have heard of people getting articles printed in obscure
> newspapers in places like Iceland so as to have the "prior art" publishing
> available, while having the article printed in a place where it was not
> likely to be seen by anyone in the trade while they got their item to a
> producible point, but no-one else could patent it as it was now published.
>
This 3D system is featured in the latest copy of a trade journal

http://www.actuality-systems.com/

Regards

Chris Carr

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