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'[EE]: Desktop publishing for training manuals'
2004\11\12@222929 by Charles Craft

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I'm not sure it's even called desktop publishing anymore.  :-)

MS PowerPoint is great when you need to gee whiz a customer or VC but weak for training manuals.
In a past life many years ago I used Micrografx Designer and it worked pretty well.

Since then Micrografx has become igrafx and the Designer product went to Corel.

Before I spend a lot of time looking for old disks to upgrade I wondered:

- are others using Corel Designer and if so how do you like it?

- what other tools are people using to create 8.5x11 portrait mode manuals with TOC and Index?


thanks
chuckc



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2004\11\13@043905 by Jose Da Silva

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On Friday 12 November 2004 07:29 pm, Charles Craft wrote:
>  - what other tools are people using to create 8.5x11 portrait mode
> manuals with TOC and Index?

http://www.openoffice.org prints to PDF... quite readable even under Adobe Reader 3.
gimp may prove useful to create graphics.
If using windows... then as old as "Print Artist" by Sierra is (probably
$5.00 in bargain bins), it holds a lot of clipart and you can morph text
too. Print Artist is geared more towards birthday cards, signs, banners, but
it was originally created by AutoCad  ;-)
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2004\11\13@195131 by Cnc002

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In a message dated 11/12/04 10:33:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
spam_OUTchuckseaTakeThisOuTspammindspring.com writes:

{Quote hidden}

How about Adobe Acrobat?  With it you can create pretty much anything and
make .PDF files for electronic manuals.  Just a thought.

Randy
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2004\11\13@202606 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 10:29 PM 11/12/2004 -0500, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I like Adobe InDesign.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
.....speffKILLspamspam@spam@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com




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2004\11\13@233926 by Martin Klingensmith
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I use LaTeX but it takes a few minutes to learn and isn't WYSIWYG.
Output is top-notch.

Charles Craft wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> ______________________________________________

2004\11\14@005554 by Thomas McGahee

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In my first reply to this thread I failed to mention that Corel has a free
30 day full-feature demo of Ventura 10 available on their web site. You can
also purchase the older version 8 at very reasonable prices from online
sites.

I have used Framemaker, Quark Express, InDesign, Pagemaker, and about a
dozen other desktop publishing programs. My favorite is Corel Ventura 10.
Try the demo. You have 30 days to examine it for free. If you take the time
to learn it, I think you will find that it is excellent for producing
manuals and books and all other kinds of documents. If you have any other
Corel products you can easily add them to the toolbar. I use Corel
Photopaint a lot, and all I have to do is right-click on a photo or bitmap
in any document to bring up Photopaint to edit the bitmap.

As with any full-feature program, there is a learning curve, especially if
you are interested in some of the more esoteric features. That said,
however, I found Ventura easier to learn than many of the other products. It
has a large number of import filters, so you can import files created in
wordprocessors with no problem. It has built-in options for producing PDF
and HTML output. To say I like it is an understatement.

Fr. Tom McGahee


{Quote hidden}

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2004\11\14@095049 by Gerhard Fiedler

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> I have used Framemaker, Quark Express, InDesign, Pagemaker, and about a
> dozen other desktop publishing programs. My favorite is Corel Ventura 10.

I generally use Microsoft Word (which I have anyway) for such things. What
is it that you are missing in Word that these publishing programs provide?
The only feature that I'm missing (or that I know of that I'm missing :) is
flow of text between multiple text boxes, and most of the time I can work
around this somehow.

Gerhard
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2004\11\14@104551 by Ian Hooper

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I've been in the professional print trade for some fifteen years, and have
probably dealt with just about every package out there. I've done tech. docs
and training manuals, some of them over 1000 pages and in different
languages. I would agree that Ventura is a darling when it comes to long
technical document publishing. FrameMaker and Indesign are close contenders.
Personally, I find Quark Xpress to be over-rated and over-priced, the latest
release (big $$) being little more than a patch.

If you are going to be using colour, or working with a "real" print shop...
I would warn you that Word is often the cause of many tears (and perhaps
bloodshed). Although a very powerful word-processer, and excellent for
writing/tagging text, Word NOT a layout program of any merit. Support for
professional colour, imposition, and trapping are lacking, text
kerning/tracking is poor and clumsy, and it has an awful habit of
reformatting a document when opened on any other machine. Updating graphics
can become a real nightmare too. If you decided to use Word for layout, I'd
highly recommend handing PDF's to your printer along with the native files.

There are a lot of  cheapo "Publishing" packages on the market that are
great for the odd business card, invitation etc., and they are attractive:
10 zillion free fonts, and more clip-art than you'll ever need - I'd stay
away, they are basically toys.


yours in print ;)

Ian



{Original Message removed}

2004\11\14@111548 by John J. McDonough

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Ian's comments made me realize that there are really three, very different,
categories of products out there (well, maybe 4 if you include specialized
packages like DocMaker).

On the one end, there are document preparation systems like LaTeX and groff.
These are good for preparing content and organization and managing updates.
They are also easy to automate.  They are fairly poor at getting the layout
exactly right.  These things are really great at collecting input from a
number of sources and assembling them in a consistent way.

At the other end are desktop publishing systems that are great at getting
things to look exactly the way you want and horrid at getting the content
and organization.

In the middle are word processing packages that do a half-assed job at both.
90% of the time, they do a good enough job, though, and so they really do
most of the heavy lifting.  If you have a big job and care about content and
organization, move to the doc preparation systems.  If your focus is on
appearance, go to the publishing apps.  If you want both, you prepare your
content in a pure text form and import it into FrameMaker, and prepare to
spend a whole lot of time doing it.

There actually is a big advantage to the last way.  You can have engineers
prepare the content in plain ascii text.  By ripping Word out of their hands
they won't be able to play at being artists and can concentrate on the
content.  Then you can hire an artist to do the actual layout.

--McD

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Hooper" <noisyspamKILLspamrogers.com>
Subject: Re: [EE]: Desktop publishing for training manuals



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2004\11\14@121230 by Charles Craft

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Lots of great feedback/discussion so far (on what can be a dry subject). :-)

I'm building reseller and end user training courses for a 1U network management appliance.

Plenty of screen shots from the Java GUI in a browser.
Some theory diagrams on proxying SNMP, HTTP and UDP.

What I need to end up with is a set of slides that I can send to a LCD projector when doing training.
And a student handbook with the same slides and accompanying text notes.
And the really sweet piece to add would be instuctor notes for clarification of topics.

MS PowerPoint does OK with most it by creating slides with the graphic and using the Notes page area for the text.

I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO BECOME A VISUAL BASIC PROGRAMMER TO CREATE DOCUMENTS!!!!
(slam fist on desktop to get the audio that goes along with above statement)  :-)

1. The Table of Contents generator in PowerPoint is a macro? Not as configurable as TOC in MS Word.
2. Don't think I can create an Index in PowerPoint.
3. Really $%#$^#$%$ me off that I can't reference the slide title in the Notes page master header.
There should be a way of sticking fields into PowerPoint like Word does.
4. PowerPoint doesn't support layers which would help with having different notes printed.
Also doesn't support multiple page/slide Masters which would be nice.

Don't need any fancy setup stuff for a professional printer since we'll pump them out of a laser printer as needed.

{Original Message removed}

2004\11\16@022203 by Morgan Olsson

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OpenOffice suits my own need very well.  Tip: Do learn to use templates and the stylist and you will never use MSWord again...  OK, I have not used MS products for years, I also used Pagemaker.
Never needed them again when first Staroffice5, then Openoffice came about, and from what i have read it is now in most cases superior to MSOffice, even include vector drawing program, and handle large complex documents better.  PDF generation is really good for "normal" use.

http://www.openoffice.org
For the same program, but with larger dictionary, some extras and a paper book, go buy StarOffice from SUN.

For more professional document direct produciton postscript quality, color handling etc, tnan any *Office, google up on Scribus. Homepage: http://www.scribus.org.uk/  Myself have only played with an earlier version, but I read even some magazies are using it today.

For image editing: GIMP.

/Morgan
--
Morgan Olsson, Kivik, Sweden

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2004\11\16@040641 by Roland

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At 08:21 AM 16/11/2004 +0100, you wrote:
>
>OpenOffice suits my own need very well.  Tip: Do learn to use templates
and the stylist and you will never use MSWord again...  OK, I have not used
MS products for years, I also used Pagemaker.
>Never needed them again when first Staroffice5, then Openoffice came
about, and from what i have read it is now in ......

Hi

Quick query;

Many years ago there was a dos text editor called e.com. The really neat
thing about this program was that it allowed
one to do block cut/copy/paste. Ever since then I've only seen progs that
pull up the rest of the line when copying/cutting.
The feature was really neat for code writing since it made it easy to paste
a column of say "equ  0x     ; " anywhere
on the page without screwing up the other text.

I typed this up using
carrige returns just to
demostrate a copy and
pasted block.

eg; pasted block;    ed this up us
                    ge returns ju
                    trate a copy
                    d block.

So my question is if anyone is aware of a similar text editor without me
having to test them all.

Regards
Roland Jollivet

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2004\11\16@042755 by David Duffy

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Roland wrote:

{Quote hidden}

IIRC, Ultra-Edit can do this. It's called "column mode".
http://www.ultraedit.com
David...



--
___________________________________________
David Duffy        Audio Visual Devices P/L
U8, 9-11 Trade St, Cleveland 4163 Australia
Ph: +61 7 38210362   Fax: +61 7 38210281
New Web: http://www.audiovisualdevices.com.au
___________________________________________

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2004\11\16@140607 by Jose Da Silva

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On Tuesday 16 November 2004 01:27 am, David Duffy wrote:
{Quote hidden}

...and if you are running linux with the KDE desktop, it's builtin to kWrite
as "Edit->blockmode".  Kwrite is sort of like windows "notepad on steroids"
so it makes a great text and/or source-code editor.
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2004\11\16@173413 by William Chops Westfield

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> The really neat thing about this program was that it allowed
> one to do block cut/copy/paste.

EMACS has "rectangle mode" that does this.  EMACS *probably* has every
feature
anyone could ever want.  Finding those features, figuring out how they
work,
adapting them to your particular problem, and updating versions may all
be a
bit ... trying.  EMACS is an interesting microcosm of everything that
is good
and bad about open source, I think...

BillW

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2004\11\16@180402 by Bradley Ferguson

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On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:37:58, Roland <.....jemelectricKILLspamspam.....mweb.co.za> wrote:
> Many years ago there was a dos text editor called e.com. The really neat
> thing about this program was that it allowed
> one to do block cut/copy/paste. Ever since then I've only seen progs that
> pull up the rest of the line when copying/cutting.
> The feature was really neat for code writing since it made it easy to paste
> a column of say "equ  0x     ; " anywhere
> on the page without screwing up the other text.

TextPad (http://www.textpad.com) also has this feature.  In TextPad it is
called "Block Select Mode."

You can download a fully functional demo version from their website.

Bradley
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2004\11\16@182317 by Bob Ammerman

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I used VEDIT way back in the CPM days and still use it today under Windows.
It also has a block cut/paste mode. It is a very powerful editor that I drag
out whenever I have something special to do. It has a very complete and
powerful macro language built in. Unfortunately, they changed that from a
TECO like language that I knew and loved into something a lot wordier that I
have to look up every time I use it.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

{Original Message removed}

2004\11\16@190559 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "William Chops Westfield" <EraseMEwestfwspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmac.com>
Subject: Re: [EE]: Desktop publishing for training manuals


> EMACS *probably* has every feature anyone could ever want.

and quite a few nobody could possibly want!  I mean, the Coptic calendar?
How handy is that.  And it's always useful to know when the next tzolkin is.

But really, my favorite feature is that it is available on every operating
system known to man.  It's hard learning a full-featured editor, and it's a
huge win to be able to keep the same editor migrating from RSX to VMS to
VM/CMS, to OS/2, to Windoze to Linux, and on and on and on ...

--McD



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2004\11\16@191113 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Ammerman" <rammermanspamspam_OUTverizon.net>
Subject: Re: [EE]: Desktop publishing for training manuals


> they changed that from a TECO like language that I knew and loved

WOW!  Did you know Charles Babbage, too?

--McD


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2004\11\16@193716 by Bob Ammerman

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>> they changed that from a TECO like language that I knew and loved

> WOW!  Did you know Charles Babbage, too?
>
> --McD

I'll tell you, that Lady Lovelace was a hot one! :-)

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
The
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2004\11\16@194202 by Alex Harford

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On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:34:13 -0800, William Chops Westfield
<@spam@westfwKILLspamspammac.com> wrote:
> > The really neat thing about this program was that it allowed
> > one to do block cut/copy/paste.
>
> EMACS has "rectangle mode" that does this.  EMACS *probably* has every
> feature
> anyone could ever want.

And of course, vim has this as well. (Visual block mode)

Alex
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2004\11\17@000031 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Nov 16, 2004, at 4:05 PM, John J. McDonough wrote:

> my favorite feature is that [EMACS] is available on every operating
> system known to man.

Yep.  That was my excuse.  MSDOS, CP/M, TOPS10 and TOPS20 as well.

vi has achieved that status as well, for modern operating systems,
but emacs was first...

BillW

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2004\11\17@000110 by William Chops Westfield

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On Nov 16, 2004, at 4:11 PM, John J. McDonough wrote:

>> they changed that from a TECO like language that I knew and loved
>
> WOW!  Did you know Charles Babbage, too?
>
>
Knew his dad, I think :-)

Ah.  TECO...

BillW

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2004\11\17@014012 by Mohit Mahajan

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Block copy/paste for MS Word:

While Alt key is kept pressed, left-click mouse and drag over
(highlight) area of interest. Copy (Ctrl-C) and then paste (Ctrl-V).

HTH,
Mohit.

> {Original Message removed}

2004\11\17@080814 by Bob Ammerman

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Actually, I kind of liked the 029 editor. It came with its own custom
keyboard.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems


{Original Message removed}

2004\11\17@083357 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Ammerman" <KILLspamrammermanKILLspamspamverizon.net>
Subject: Re: [EE]: Desktop publishing for training manuals


> I'll tell you, that Lady Lovelace was a hot one! :-)

Yes, for years I had her picture in my office.

--McD


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2004\11\17@174542 by Howard Winter

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On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:05:04 -0500, Bob Ammerman wrote:

> Actually, I kind of liked the 029 editor. It came with
its own custom keyboard.

Plenty of punch too!  :-)

Cheers,



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


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