> Neil asked;
>
>
> >- Can I get assembly (soldering parts to the board) only (no design)?
>
> Yes I've done this and supplied my own PCBs etc.
>
> - Will they make the boards as well?
> Yes, I design projects and PCBs for two contract assembly
> companies in the UK. Customers often approach them
> with only product/project ideas.
>
>
> >- Will they handle the ordering of parts, or should I ship the parts to
>
> them?
> In my experience they can generally source components more
> cheaply than than you can, it's what they do. Free-issuing
> components, particularly specialist ones isn't a problem to them.
>
>
> >- Will they (or should they) test?
>
> Up to you entirely I would say, I build as many self test
> features into my designs as possible, especially if PIC based.
>
>
> >- If they test, what do I need to put in place -- just a list of test
> > cases
>
>
>
> >or some automated test system.
>
> Depends on the complexity of the product and the implications
> of a failure, talk to them?
>
>
> >- If some of the final assembly is done by me, does that release them
> > from

>
> All I can say is I've built up a good working relationship with my
> companies, problems do occur and we solve them between us.
> If you explain this is your first venture into contact assembly I'm
> sure they'll be helpful, you may even get some design work from
> them as I did.  
>
>
> >- Any recommendations on contract assembly companies?
>
> Where in the world are you? Sorry but I won't reveal who
> I work for... for obvious reasons.    
>
> Take your product to two or three companies and compare their
> prices and payment terms.
>
> And as in life generally... trust your instincts :)
>
> Regards,
>
> Nigel Duckworth
>
>
>
>  

> Responses to questions inline:
>
> PicDude wrote:
> >Hi all,
> >
> >I am considering the services of a contract manufacturer to assemble a
> > product in batches over the next year or two.  Since I've never done this
> > before, I'd like to know what to expect in the way of services, how the
> > process works, what payment terms are common, and how to determine if the
> > pricing is fair.
>
> Competitive quotes will tell you if pricing is "fair".  However, be sure
> you are comparing apples to apples.
>
> >Some questions I already have is:
> >        - Can I get assembly (soldering parts to the board) only (no design)?
>
> Yes, this is actually more common than with design
>
> >        - Will they make the boards as well?
>
> Yes, if you want them to.  If they don't have the capability in house
> (most small shops won't), they will subcontract it.
>
> >        - Will they handle the ordering of parts, or should I ship the parts to
> > them?
>
> Most places will do it either way.  Depending on quantities and the
> nature of your assemblies it may be easier (and cheaper) for them to
> order the parts.  It's called a "consignment job" when you supply the
> parts.
>
> >        - Will they (or should they) test?
>
> Many places will also offer test services but you will have to be
> explicit about what tests need to be performed and how they are
> performed.  If special equipment is required, you should be prepared to
> supply it.
>
> >        - If they test, what do I need to put in place -- just a list of test
> > cases, or some automated test system.
>
> Automated test systems are okay but most places that offer test services
> will have technicians who can follow instructions.  Make sure you know
> what you want and express it so that there is no chance for confusion.
>
> >        - If some of the final assembly is done by me, does that release them
> > from any liability if boards are faulty?
>
> That's a contract issue.  Usually their liability is limited to the
> labor expenses of correcting errors that they make in assembly
> (sometimes not even that if your instructions are ambiguous).
>
> >        - Any recommendations on contract assembly companies?
>
> Where are you located?  What are you building?  What quantities?  How
> fast do you need to turn on production?  Do you care where the assembly
> work is done?  There are lots of choices.  Recommendations are better
> targeted with more information.
>
> >Pretty much, I'm looking for some real-world advice from someone who's
> > done this before, prior to my contacting these companies.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >-Neil.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Dave

> I'll comment on a couple companies, one is the one I work for, the other
> is a local contract assembly house.
>
> >        - Can I get assembly (soldering parts to the board) only (no design)?
>
>      Yes, an assembly house does assembly. We do our own design. An
> assembly house sometimes suggests changes to make the board easier to
> build.
>
> >        - Will they make the boards as well?
>
>      Not in our (limited) experience. Making boards and assembling them
> seem like two very different technologies.
>
> >        - Will they handle the ordering of parts, or should I ship the parts to
>
> them?
>
>      Works both ways. People we assemble for normally supply the parts.
> The other local shop likes to buy the parts from your bill of
> materials.
>
> >        - Will they (or should they) test?
>
>      It varies. On some boards we assemble for others, we just do a visual
> inspection to make sure they're right. On others (especially one I
> designed), we built a test jig to test them. On the other assembler,
> we've provided them with test jigs and test procedures.
>
> >        - If they test, what do I need to put in place -- just a list of test
> > cases,
> > or some automated test system.
>
>      As above, we supply them with a test jig and procedure. Our volumes
> are not large (maybe a run of 1,000), so automated test is not
> worthwhile. If you have a large run or a large number of tests that
> need to be run, automated test could be worthwhile.
>
> >        - If some of the final assembly is done by me, does that release them
> > from
> > any liability if boards are faulty?
>
>      If you are paying them to test, you should not get faulty boards. If
> you are not, there should be some agreed upon failure rate. In the
> cases we've dealt with, the client ends up doing final assembly, but
> the boards work.
>
> >        - Any recommendations on contract assembly companies?
>
> For through hole board assembly, you may want to consider my employer
> (Dove Systems, San Luis Obispo, CA). The SMT assembler we've worked with
> (we did the design of a product for another company, the SMT assembler did
> the assembly) is The Job Shop in Grover Beach, CA.
>
> So, that's my limited experience in this area...
>
> Harold
> (Dove Systems)

>David,
>
>Your mention of "instructions" brings up another question -- what sort of
>instructions are typically provided?  If I supplied a board layout (showing
>the parts identified) with a list of parts/values (and perhaps sources), is
>that enough?  Or do I need to be explicit about the assembly process?
>
>I'm in Texas, I am very restricted by an NDA at this point about what the
>project is.  So far, I do have a design & layout and the prototype will be
>completed by this weekend, but subject to some tweaking.  But the board will
>be about 7" x 6" and will have about 4-5 PICs, and other supporting
>components.  There will also be about 15-20 wires coming off the board will
>need to be attached to a special connector.  Quantity is expected to be 2000
>pcs per year, which I would like to split in 500-unit batches.  Don't care
>where it is assembled, though I'd think keeping it in the U.S. will avoid
>some hassles.  And I will have a few months lead time before the first pieces
>are delivered.
>
>Cheers,
>-Neil.
>  
>

> Neil,
>
> An assembly drawing (essentially what you described) and bill of
> materials should certainly be adequate for quoting purposes.  If it's
> not, the assembly house will tell you so.  You mention 4-5 PICs.  If
> these need to be programmed, you will need to specify who does the
> programming (and when, ISP vs. before stuffing).  Your quantities are
> certainly adequate to justify asking them to quote it with them
> providing the parts.   While they may or may not have access to
> component vendors which offer them better pricing, they can order
> components in packaging which is more likely compatible with their
> assembly methods (tubes vs. tape and reel vs. bulk for example).  Unless
> there is some specific reason for specifying an assembly process
> (sometimes there is) I would leave that up to the vendor.  It is
> probably worth having a note like "Workmanship standard IPC-610 class
> II" on your assembly drawing.  This will give both of you a common basis
> for judging the quality of workmanship and sets the expectation at a
> reasonable level.  If the assembly houses that you talk to don't know
> what that note means, it means that you are dealing with the wrong
> assembly house.
>
> My question about "what you are building" wasn't to determine its
> function but to determine the assembly requirements.  Information that's
> useful (I knew I should have been more explicit) would be, board size,
> surface mount or through hole, components on both sides, special
> connectors, lead free, unusual board shapes or materials and the like.
>
> It doesn't sound like you have an unreasonably tight schedule but it
> does sound like you need to start moving on this in the not too distant
> future.  I can recommend several places in the San Jose, Sacramento,
> California area with whom we have had good results but I would guess
> that you would do okay in Texas as well.  I recall several list members
> indicating that they could offer such services.  Perhaps a post to
> "[BUY]: Contract assembly services" would get their attention (although
> I'd expect the current thread should have caught their attention.)  Let
> me know if you want contacts here.
>
> Incidentally, I'd love to find a machine shop or sheet metal house that
> offered decent product and prices well below the norm (as you mentioned
> in your post to Nigel).
>
> Good luck,
>
> Dave

> >You mention 4-5 PICs.  If these need to be
> programmed, you will
> >need to specify who does the programming (and when,
> ISP vs.
> >before stuffing).  Your quantities are certainly
> adequate to
> >justify asking them to quote it with them providing
> the parts.
>
> Probably also worth seeing what the cost is for
> Microchip to provide ready
> programmed parts straight to the assemble. If using
> SMD devices then this
> will save programming before fitting, and providing
> ICSP points on the
> board.
>

> >You mention 4-5 PICs.  If these need to be programmed, you will
> >need to specify who does the programming (and when, ISP vs.
> >before stuffing).  Your quantities are certainly adequate to
> >justify asking them to quote it with them providing the parts.
>
> Probably also worth seeing what the cost is for Microchip to provide ready
> programmed parts straight to the assemble. If using SMD devices then this
> will save programming before fitting, and providing ICSP points on the
> board.

> Hmmm... I thought Microchip doesn't speak to anyone
> who's not looking at 10's
> of thousands of chips.
>
> I was thinking I'd program here since there will
> probably be a few variations
> of the code.  Or I might code in all variations and
> make them settable with a
> small tact switch.
>
> Cheers,
> -Neil.
>
>
>
> On Monday 21 March 2005 04:51 am, Alan B. Pearce
> scribbled:
> > >You mention 4-5 PICs.  If these need to be
> programmed, you will
> > >need to specify who does the programming (and
> when, ISP vs.
> > >before stuffing).  Your quantities are certainly
> adequate to
> > >justify asking them to quote it with them
> providing the parts.
> >
> > Probably also worth seeing what the cost is for
> Microchip to provide ready
> > programmed parts straight to the assemble. If
> using SMD devices then this
> > will save programming before fitting, and
> providing ICSP points on the
> > board.
>
>

> We have used CM's that are very small shops to the
> very large.  IN all cases, the first boards thru,
> complex or not, require you to hold thier hands in
> order to make sure it gets done right.  Once they have
> a process down, its usually pretty much...build me 100
> of these units.
>
> Small CM's will sub the board out, even get them from
> overseas if qty is enough or build themselves (if they
> are a large CM that is...one of ours is)
>
> Testing.  If you want them to test, then its going to
> be a cost adder.  They typically will want the test
> setup (we provide the test jig) and depending on the
> design, rework can sometimes be easier at the CM
> facility (large BGA's are usually not for the faint of
> heart).  If you can deal with rework yourself for
> failed boards then the cost burdon comes back to you.
>
> Parts - jelly bean parts (normal caps and resistors
> that is) they typically bought in reels by the
> thousands and can reduce costs.  Special parts,
> modules, chips, etc are usually (unless HUGE qty) not
> purchased any cheaper than what you can but they have
> full control over the buying process.  To elaborate,
> if you have a part, its better to negotiate the price
> with the vendor yourself then make sure that the CM
> will buy it at that price.  We have seen where a part
> has been nogotiated by a CM customer for lets say
> $2ea, but our price is $2.25 for the same part. Why?
> Even tho the CM is using thousands of this part, the
> price was negotiated for the other client, not us.
> That was a surprise actually.
>
> Best advice? If you can use a local CM its better
> since you will have issues on first runs and also
> during larger runs.  Visit the line, look at some of
> the work they are doing, ask permission to talk to
> other customers, get a good feel of the process.  If
> they refuse to allow you to see the line, etc....might
> think twice about using them (what are they hiding).
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com

> Alan,
>
> Very informative.  Thanks.
>
> Care to pass on any recommendations for CM's?
>
> Cheers,
> -Neil.
>
>
>
> On Tuesday 22 March 2005 08:09 am, alan smith
> scribbled:
> > We have used CM's that are very small shops to the
> > very large.  IN all cases, the first boards thru,
> > complex or not, require you to hold thier hands in
> > order to make sure it gets done right.  Once they
> have
> > a process down, its usually pretty much...build me
> 100
> > of these units.
> >
> > Small CM's will sub the board out, even get them
> from
> > overseas if qty is enough or build themselves (if
> they
> > are a large CM that is...one of ours is)
> >
> > Testing.  If you want them to test, then its going
> to
> > be a cost adder.  They typically will want the
> test
> > setup (we provide the test jig) and depending on
> the
> > design, rework can sometimes be easier at the CM
> > facility (large BGA's are usually not for the
> faint of
> > heart).  If you can deal with rework yourself for
> > failed boards then the cost burdon comes back to
> you.
> >
> > Parts - jelly bean parts (normal caps and
> resistors
> > that is) they typically bought in reels by the
> > thousands and can reduce costs.  Special parts,
> > modules, chips, etc are usually (unless HUGE qty)
> not
> > purchased any cheaper than what you can but they
> have
> > full control over the buying process.  To
> elaborate,
> > if you have a part, its better to negotiate the
> price
> > with the vendor yourself then make sure that the
> CM
> > will buy it at that price.  We have seen where a
> part
> > has been nogotiated by a CM customer for lets say
> > $2ea, but our price is $2.25 for the same part.
> Why?
> > Even tho the CM is using thousands of this part,
> the
> > price was negotiated for the other client, not us.
> > That was a surprise actually.
> >
> > Best advice? If you can use a local CM its better
> > since you will have issues on first runs and also
> > during larger runs.  Visit the line, look at some
> of
> > the work they are doing, ask permission to talk to
> > other customers, get a good feel of the process.
> If
> > they refuse to allow you to see the line,
> etc....might
> > think twice about using them (what are they
> hiding).
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>