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'[EE]: 4 wires to make a net cable with j45?'
2002\07\09@214608 by personal

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face
does any one know, can I only use 4 wires to make net cable with j45 connector?

1-3 2-6 cross over,,,,,for pc to pc...

no other pin needed right?

BR,

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2002\07\10@024616 by Robert Rolf

picon face
No, but it's 1-2 & 3-6 pairs cross to 3-6 & 1-2

personal wrote:
>
> does any one know, can I only use 4 wires to make
> net cable with j45 connector?
>
> 1-3 2-6 cross over,,,,,for pc to pc...
>
> no other pin needed right?
>
> BR,
>
>
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2002\07\10@075426 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> does any one know, can I only use 4 wires to make
> net cable with j45 connector?

Yes, I'm sure many people do.


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2002\07\10@102259 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
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Judging from your email address, English may not be your 1st language. If
so, you've done well.

Judging from at least one reply, not everyone is doing as good a job as they
might have of translating a reasonable request into English (even though
they may live in a country where English of a sort is their first language).

So, let's see if I can translate your request into something that such
people may understand :-)
(I may get this wrong).

> does any one know, can I only use 4 wires to make
> net cable with j45 connector?
> 1-3 2-6 cross over,,,,,for PC to PC...
> no other pin needed right?

_______________________
TRANSLATION (perhaps):     I am not just asking this question blindly
without having done some research of my own first but I now have a question
which is not obvious to me. I have done some research into UTP network
cables and found out what plugs are used and what wires appear to be used.
From my research I have determined that for a "crossover" cable between two
PCs without a hub or switch, at one end the pair on pins 1 & 2 is connected
to the wires that go to pins 3 & 6 at the other end. The same "swap" is
performed in the other direction. While it seems logical to me that using
just these wires should be enough there MAY be some other aspect that I am
not familiar with that makes it desirable or necessary to connect the other
pins as well. As I have not found this mentioned elsewhere I have decided to
ask the PICList members' advice. I have not asked list members by private
email as, although some don't mind at all, I know some don't seem to
appreciate this. I have not used very many words in this request as
constructing any message in English is somewhat time consuming for me so I
tried to make my request as concise as I could.
_________________

Hopefully the above "translation" will allow people who use English as a
first language and whose minds are not perhaps flexible enough to cope with
reasonable requests from those who do not have English as a first language
to understand and answer the question.

For what it's worth, my understanding on this is as follows:
A UTP network cable may be made using only two pairs of wires.
One twisted pair should connect to pins 1 & 2. The other should connect to
pins 3 & 6.
Where the cable is to be used to connect a PC to a network hub the following
connections should be used.

1 - 1
2 - 2
3 - 3
6 - 6

Where the cable is to be used to connect from PC to PC without a hub a
"crossover" cable should be used where the transmit pair in one direction is
connected to the receive pins at the other end.
ie

1 - 3
2 - 6
3 - 1
6 - 2

If you do have extra pairs in the cable they SHOULD be terminated according
to the published standards (available on net) as if they are left floating
they can cause problems with data corruption.

So, yes - your research and assumptions were correct although, as  Robert
Rolf's good answer points out, it is possible to confuse what you meant when
you wrote the numbers. What he said and what you said about connection
numbering was correct (probably) but it was possible to get the wrong idea
when reading them. Hopefully the "explicit" connection information above
makes the connections clear. If not, ask again - there are no silly well
researched questions on the PICList (they tell me) - just ones which may be
misunderstood if people don't try a little to understand them.



       Russell McMahon

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2002\07\10@122846 by Brendan Moran
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An excellent answer, Russell, I, however, in general like to point to useful
links.  Mike, you are, in general, correct.  However, you have not mentioned
whether you are running 10base-T or 100base-T4.  Here is what I found with a
quick google:

http://www.pin-outs.com/datasheet_72.html

RJ45 Cross Over Cable

RJ45 Male  RJ45 Male
   1          3
   2          6
   3          1
   6          2


And these two links show the actual pin descriptions for 10/100base-T
http://www.pin-outs.com/datasheet_22.html
http://www.pin-outs.com/datasheet_92.htm

Hope that helps,

--Brendan

> Judging from your email address, English may not be your 1st language. If
> so, you've done well.
>
> Judging from at least one reply, not everyone is doing as good a job as
they
> might have of translating a reasonable request into English (even though
> they may live in a country where English of a sort is their first
language).
{Quote hidden}

question
> which is not obvious to me. I have done some research into UTP network
> cables and found out what plugs are used and what wires appear to be used.
> >From my research I have determined that for a "crossover" cable between
two
> PCs without a hub or switch, at one end the pair on pins 1 & 2 is
connected
> to the wires that go to pins 3 & 6 at the other end. The same "swap" is
> performed in the other direction. While it seems logical to me that using
> just these wires should be enough there MAY be some other aspect that I am
> not familiar with that makes it desirable or necessary to connect the
other
> pins as well. As I have not found this mentioned elsewhere I have decided
to
> ask the PICList members' advice. I have not asked list members by private
> email as, although some don't mind at all, I know some don't seem to
> appreciate this. I have not used very many words in this request as
> constructing any message in English is somewhat time consuming for me so I
> tried to make my request as concise as I could.
> _________________
>
> Hopefully the above "translation" will allow people who use English as a
> first language and whose minds are not perhaps flexible enough to cope
with
> reasonable requests from those who do not have English as a first language
> to understand and answer the question.
>
> For what it's worth, my understanding on this is as follows:
> A UTP network cable may be made using only two pairs of wires.
> One twisted pair should connect to pins 1 & 2. The other should connect to
> pins 3 & 6.
> Where the cable is to be used to connect a PC to a network hub the
following
> connections should be used.
>
> 1 - 1
> 2 - 2
> 3 - 3
> 6 - 6
>
> Where the cable is to be used to connect from PC to PC without a hub a
> "crossover" cable should be used where the transmit pair in one direction
is
> connected to the receive pins at the other end.
> ie
>
> 1 - 3
> 2 - 6
> 3 - 1
> 6 - 2
>
> If you do have extra pairs in the cable they SHOULD be terminated
according
> to the published standards (available on net) as if they are left floating
> they can cause problems with data corruption.
>
> So, yes - your research and assumptions were correct although, as  Robert
> Rolf's good answer points out, it is possible to confuse what you meant
when
> you wrote the numbers. What he said and what you said about connection
> numbering was correct (probably) but it was possible to get the wrong idea
> when reading them. Hopefully the "explicit" connection information above
> makes the connections clear. If not, ask again - there are no silly well
> researched questions on the PICList (they tell me) - just ones which may
be
> misunderstood if people don't try a little to understand them.

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2002\07\10@171323 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
>> does any one know, can I only use 4 wires to make
>> net cable with j45 connector?

Why would you want to do it yourself ? The cost of a proper crimp tool
alone will set you back more than buying ready-made cables and splicing
them if required.

Peter

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2002\07\10@191806 by Herbert Graf

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> >> does any one know, can I only use 4 wires to make
> >> net cable with j45 connector?
>
> Why would you want to do it yourself ? The cost of a proper crimp tool
> alone will set you back more than buying ready-made cables and splicing
> them if required.

Huh? I'm not sure where you got that idea from. I bought a perfectly good
crimper for < $20 CND (~$13 US), can't buy many ready made cables for $20,
also can't fish a ready made cable through a hole barely big enough for the
cable. TTYL

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2002\07\10@215200 by Bob Blick

face picon face
Usually it works. However it will not always work. It does not work
between my laptop(with 3com 10mbps card) and i810
BookPC(onboard 100mbps). I needed a crossover with all 8
wires(extra 4 wires straight through).

Note the 3com card has an 8 pin x-jack, with 6 wires on the jack, not
4 or 8! The extra wires go somewhere.

The link light goes on with 4 wires, but nothing else would work.

Perhaps the 4 wire approach would work if the two computers
shared ground.

Cheers,

Bob

On 9 Jul 2002 at 21:46, personal wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\07\11@130335 by Brendan Moran

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face
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> Usually it works. However it will not always work. It does not work
> between my laptop(with 3com 10mbps card) and i810
> BookPC(onboard 100mbps). I needed a crossover with all 8
> wires(extra 4 wires straight through).
>
> Note the 3com card has an 8 pin x-jack, with 6 wires on the jack,
> not 4 or 8! The extra wires go somewhere.

I suscpet that that was just an issue with a not terribly compliant
10/100 ethernet card.

> The link light goes on with 4 wires, but nothing else would work.

4 wires is all you need if you have 10Mbps at each end.

> Perhaps the 4 wire approach would work if the two computers
> shared ground.

As far as I know, ethernet is a differential protocol for the express
purpose of avoiding the issues involved with shared grounds.  The
grounds shouldn't matter.

- --Brendan

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2002\07\11@144023 by Diego Sierra

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face
Hi!

> > >> does any one know, can I only use 4 wires to make net cable with j45
connector?

Yes, you can use it for 10 or 100 Mbps ethernet.

You have to connect the cable using pairs 1-2 and 3-6 (this means a twisted
pair of cables is connected to 1-2 and another twisted pair to 3-6). The
other two pairs available (4-5 and 7-8) are used in Gigabit Ethernet or ATM
over copper, for example.

Normal cable (computer to hub):

1---\       /---1
    TWISTED
2---/       \---2

3---\       /---3
    TWISTED
6---/       \---6

Crossed cable (computer to computer):

1---\       /---3
    TWISTED
2---/       \---6

3---\       /---1
    TWISTED
6---/       \---2

Bye,
Diego.

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2002\07\11@145301 by Brendan Moran

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face
> Yes, you can use it for 10 or 100 Mbps ethernet.

No, Emphatic no.

> You have to connect the cable using pairs 1-2 and 3-6 (this means a
twisted
> pair of cables is connected to 1-2 and another twisted pair to 3-6). The
> other two pairs available (4-5 and 7-8) are used in Gigabit Ethernet or
ATM
> over copper, for example.

Please read the links fin my previous post.  The 4 additional lines are
clearly for 100Mbps.  Gigabit lan takes an additional 4 pairs.

Or at least that's what all the info I've seen states.

--Brendan

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2002\07\11@160324 by Phillip Vogel

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Well, you can be as emphatic as you want to be, but there are plenty of 10
and 100 Mbps ethernets running on two pairs (much of mine included).

P.

> {Original Message removed}

2002\07\11@162027 by Brendan Moran

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face
> Well, you can be as emphatic as you want to be, but there are plenty of 10
> and 100 Mbps ethernets running on two pairs (much of mine included).

I'll start by assuming you're correct, because now, I am truly confused.

Well, after some checking, I have found an answer.  We're both right.
100base-T4 is 4 pair telephone cable, while 100base-TX (which I assume
you're using) is 2 pair data grade cable.

This information:

"In 100 Mbps (megabits per second) Ethernet (known as Fast Ethernet), there
are three types of physical wiring that can carry signals:

100BASE-T4 (four pairs of telephone twisted pair wire)
100BASE-TX (two pairs of data grade twisted-pair wire)
100BASE-FX (a two-strand optical fiber cable) "

was found at
http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid7_gci211490,00.html

Well, good to have cleared that up.

--Brendan

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2002\07\11@162041 by Diego Sierra

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face
Hi!

> > Yes, you can use it for 10 or 100 Mbps ethernet.
>
> No, Emphatic no.

Yes you can, IF you use a CAT5 cable. If you use a CAT3 cable, 100Mbps
ethernet needed the 4 pairs. This is due to the higher frequencies of the
100Mbps related to the 10Mbps.

Cheers,
Diego.

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2002\07\11@162752 by Bob Blick

face picon face
>
> Please read the links fin my previous post.  The 4 additional lines are
> clearly for 100Mbps.  Gigabit lan takes an additional 4 pairs.
>

100 base T4 require 8 wires, but that is not what most people use. Most
people have 10/100 cards that only need 4 wires. Except when they have a
quirky card that likes a few extra.

100 base T4 is not compatible with 100 base T and requires special hubs
and switches. It is not very popular, although sometimes you can get good
deals on it. It is more than twice as fast as 100 base T but is usually
not worth the expense, hassle, and incompatibility.

-Bob

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2002\07\11@162759 by Herbert Graf

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face
> > You have to connect the cable using pairs 1-2 and 3-6 (this means a
> twisted
> > pair of cables is connected to 1-2 and another twisted pair to 3-6). The
> > other two pairs available (4-5 and 7-8) are used in Gigabit Ethernet or
> ATM
> > over copper, for example.
>
> Please read the links fin my previous post.  The 4 additional lines are
> clearly for 100Mbps.

       Yes, if using CAT3, for CAT5 cable only two pairs are necessary for
100Mbps. TTYL

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2002\07\11@163711 by Chris Carbaugh

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face
I see Brendan already answered this before I got to hit send, but here
it is anyhow.....


10 and 100Mbps ethernet uses pairs 2 and 3, (pins 1,2 -orange- and 3,6
-green- respectively).  Pairs 1 and 4 (pins 4,5 -blue- and 7,8 -brown-)
are not used.  In fact, I have come across patch panels and jacks
manufactured by Amp that don't even conduct pairs 1 and 4.  These were
even labeled as CAT5, when clearly they are not (the CAT5 spec requires
all conductors).

1000Mbps ethernet (from what I've read, I have no experience with it
personally) uses all 4 pairs.  I believe in a parallel fashion (2 pairs
send/receive half the data, the other two send/receive the other half).

In fact, since this thread started off about a crossover cable, field
crimped patch cables do not meet EIA/TIA 568B spec, not that anyone
cares.

The links posted by Brendan (I believe) do show the correct pin outs,
but I didn't look to see whether they stated what pins/conductors
actually do.

I believe in 10/100 ethernet it is as follows:
pin 1:  + transmit
pin 2:  - transmit
pin 3:  + receive
pin 6:  - receive

in 1000 ethernet, a second 'channel' is added:
pin 4:  + transmit
pin 5:  - transmit
pin 7:  + receive
pin 8:  - receive

I recently attended a BICSI level one installer course for structered
cabling installation.  We had a rather lengthy discussion on the manner
the pins are laid out in ethernet, and apparently, that is something
only the manufacturers of LAN equipment can answer.


Chris


On Thu, 2002-07-11 at 14:52, Brendan Moran wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\07\11@183759 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
Note athat about 99.999% of copper 100MBethernet is 100base-TX. Basically
100base-T4 was an early experiment that more or less flopped.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

{Original Message removed}

2002\07\11@185024 by Phillip Vogel

flavicon
face
Oh, I bet you could add a couple of more nines to that percentage. Certainly
with anything installed in the last several years.

P.

> {Original Message removed}

2002\07\11@185439 by Brendan Moran

flavicon
face
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How's 100base-FX doing?

> Note athat about 99.999% of copper 100MBethernet is 100base-TX.
> Basically 100base-T4 was an early experiment that more or less
> flopped.

- --Brendan

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2002\07\11@191341 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
I have one customer that was using it for a while for their network
"backbone" connections, but now uses the same fiber to carry gigabit.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

{Original Message removed}

2002\07\11@223543 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
AFAIK not that bad, it was used alot for backbone connections between
routers, these days most of it is giga-bit, but alot is still 100Base-FX.
TTYL


> How's 100base-FX doing?
>
> > Note athat about 99.999% of copper 100MBethernet is 100base-TX.
> > Basically 100base-T4 was an early experiment that more or less
> > flopped.

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2002\07\12@005318 by SM Ling

picon face
> Well, you can be as emphatic as you want to be, but there are plenty of 10
> and 100 Mbps ethernets running on two pairs (much of mine included).
>
> P.

I don't have much installation examples, just this one: I ran a 4-wire
telephone cable to network my wife computer of another room to mine.
Microsoft peer-to-peer network flawlessly.  Yes, it is on 10baseTx 10/100.

But still have not achieved the objective of getting her off my computer
because 98SE Internet Commection Sharing is not working.  Tried a few times,
and comb through the internet for examples, but still does not work.  At
least she is crashing my system as often now.

Cheers, Ling SM

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2002\07\12@020436 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
You can get a free proxy server from http://www.analogx.com which is extremely good
for basic internet use (eg browser & pop3 email) but somewhat lacking for
some services such as ICQ. They tell you on site what its limitations are. I
have been using it quite happily but have just changed back to Internet
Connection Sharing so that my son can play "Never Winter Nights" over my
ADSL link. Analogx proxy didn't let him do so.

       RM

> I don't have much installation examples, just this one: I ran a 4-wire
> telephone cable to network my wife computer of another room to mine.
> Microsoft peer-to-peer network flawlessly.  Yes, it is on 10baseTx 10/100.
>
> But still have not achieved the objective of getting her off my computer
> because 98SE Internet Commection Sharing is not working.  Tried a few
times,
{Quote hidden}

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2002\07\12@035942 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Herbert Graf wrote:

>> >> does any one know, can I only use 4 wires to make
>> >> net cable with j45 connector?
>>
>> Why would you want to do it yourself ? The cost of a proper crimp tool
>> alone will set you back more than buying ready-made cables and splicing
>> them if required.
>
>Huh? I'm not sure where you got that idea from. I bought a perfectly good
>crimper for < $20 CND (~$13 US), can't buy many ready made cables for $20,
>also can't fish a ready made cable through a hole barely big enough for the
>cable. TTYL

You're in Canada, I'm not...

As to the hole, you will be sorry later imho ;-) (been there).

Peter

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2002\07\12@042738 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I see Brendan already answered this before I got to hit
>send, but here it is anyhow.....

same here


>In fact, since this thread started off about a crossover
>cable, field crimped patch cables do not meet EIA/TIA
>568B spec, not that anyone cares.

Not sure why you think this, any well made cable should meet the specs
provided that the length between the crimp point and the twist is not too
long. This is where most people mess things up in my experience, trying to
get the individual wires into the connector.


{Quote hidden}

I believe that what is listed here for 1GB e-net is the same as required for
the 100-T4 wiring. The 100-T4 was an early attempt to corner the 100MB
market IIRC, and founded because the 100-TX system had the advantage that it
was compatable with the 10MB system, allowing the automatic 10/100 operation
by autosensing hubs. This left the 100-T4 system as an orphan.


>I recently attended a BICSI level one installer course for
>structered cabling installation.  We had a rather lengthy
>discussion on the manner the pins are laid out in ethernet,
>and apparently, that is something only the manufacturers of
>LAN equipment can answer.

My understanding is that this pin layout method goes back to the telephone
heritage of the cabling system. The very centre pair of wires is what is
used for a normal analogue telephone to connect to the exchange. The next
pair out (as in one wire each side of the centre pair) are used as the
second circuit for 4-wire modem connections. I am in the dark on the
expansion beyond that, but suspect that they were chosen to minimise
equipment destruction if a network card is plugged into the telephone
network :) I am happy to have corrections to this understanding :))

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2002\07\12@092447 by Chris Carbaugh

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On Fri, 2002-07-12 at 04:27, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

-snip-

> >In fact, since this thread started off about a crossover
> >cable, field crimped patch cables do not meet EIA/TIA
> >568B spec, not that anyone cares.
>
> Not sure why you think this, any well made cable should meet the specs
> provided that the length between the crimp point and the twist is not too
> long. This is where most people mess things up in my experience, trying to
> get the individual wires into the connector.

-snip-

I agree with you completely.  With a little practice, it is quite easy
to produce a crimp that looks identical to something factory produced.
I think my wording was off a bit, while a field crimped RJ45 will in
fact meet the specs technically, it is not -approved- by the standards
body.

I have not found any documentation on this, this came from the
instructor at the BICSI course I attended.  He has more experience in
the telcom field than I have experience breathing :)

Chris

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2002\07\12@093536 by Herbert Graf

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> >> >> does any one know, can I only use 4 wires to make
> >> >> net cable with j45 connector?
> >>
> >> Why would you want to do it yourself ? The cost of a proper crimp tool
> >> alone will set you back more than buying ready-made cables and splicing
> >> them if required.
> >
> >Huh? I'm not sure where you got that idea from. I bought a perfectly good
> >crimper for < $20 CND (~$13 US), can't buy many ready made
> cables for $20,
> >also can't fish a ready made cable through a hole barely big
> enough for the
> >cable. TTYL
>
> You're in Canada, I'm not...

       True, but there are several online sources that have them for nearly the
same price.

> As to the hole, you will be sorry later imho ;-) (been there).

       I don't see why you'd say that, it's been there for around 4 years now and
hasn't given me one problem. If you feel like it's necessary to drill a 1/2"
hole instead of a 1/4" hole (I only have a 1/4" bit long enough to get
through the wall) through over 1 foot of steel reinforced concrete be my
guest. If you feel like buying ready made cable so be it, I've done ALOT of
connected with my trusty crimper and the only problems I've ever had were
due to my connecting the wrong wires. TTYL

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2002\07\12@095727 by Dale Botkin

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Of course Linux with iptables, or BSD/Solaris with IPF will get you a very
nice NAT/firewall/proxy system, if you've got a little time to invest.

Dale
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curiosity killed the cat, I say only the cat died nobly."
         - Arnold Edinborough


On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Russell McMahon wrote:

> You can get a free proxy server from http://www.analogx.com which is extremely good
> for basic internet use (eg browser & pop3 email) but somewhat lacking for
> some services such as ICQ. They tell you on site what its limitations are. I
> have been using it quite happily but have just changed back to Internet
> Connection Sharing so that my son can play "Never Winter Nights" over my
> ADSL link. Analogx proxy didn't let him do so.

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2002\07\12@121010 by Brendan Moran

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That's one of my pet projects right now.  Still have to get it going though.

--Brendan

> Of course Linux with iptables, or BSD/Solaris with IPF will get you a very
> nice NAT/firewall/proxy system, if you've got a little time to invest.
>
> Dale
> --
> "Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that
> curiosity killed the cat, I say only the cat died nobly."
>           - Arnold Edinborough

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2002\07\12@121812 by Herbert Graf

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I use http://www.coyotelinux.com, it's a single floppy distro that turns any
computer with two NICs into a router. Minimum requirements are something
like 386 with 12MB of memory and a floppy drive, most people have machines
like that lying around in the basement. TTYL

e
> That's one of my pet projects right now.  Still have to get it
> going though.
>
> --Brendan
>
> > Of course Linux with iptables, or BSD/Solaris with IPF will get
> you a very
> > nice NAT/firewall/proxy system, if you've got a little time to invest.

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2002\07\12@124722 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Herbert Graf wrote:

{Quote hidden}

What are you wiring up, an army shelter ?! Usually there are softer
(thinner) parts you can drill through. Also the drilling is done with the
standard 1/2" or 3/4" (for conduit) bit used by electricians everywhere
(?). You can rent/borrow/hire such a guy or just the tool anywhere. Try
your building's janitor if you have one. I've never seen a 1/4" bit over
1' long since you're mentioning it. It would break very easily I think.
You should not drill ANY holes through structural elements without
consulting an engineer qualified to advise about that structure.

The problems occur when someone (possibly you) shifts something heavy and
neatly cuts the cable. Since the cable is captive you can now start over.
Also, it is impossible to swap another cable for the existing one for
testing purposes and fiddling the cable through such a long small hole (it
tends to fill with debris from drywalls and finishings) is not fun.

Of course you do as you like.

Peter

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2002\07\12@201918 by Dwayne Reid

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At 05:48 PM 7/12/02 +0300, Peter L. Peres wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Herbert Graf wrote:
>
> >necessary to drill a 1/2" hole instead of a 1/4" hole (I only have a 1/4"
> >bit long enough to get through the wall) through over 1 foot of steel
> >reinforced concrete be my guest. If you feel like buying ready made cable
>
>What are you wiring up, an army shelter ?! Usually there are softer
>(thinner) parts you can drill through.

I don't know about Herbert's situation, but here in Edmonton, a *lot* of
high rise condo buildings are made entirely of concrete.  There are *no*
wood studs in the apartment at all.  Floor and ceiling are concrete as well.

Fishing wires between rooms requires drilling through the concrete
wall.  I've done this for friends - a good metal detector is essential to
make sure that you miss any rebar that in the vicinity.  But the smallest
hole I drilled through those walls was 1/2" - I haven't seen an 18" long
bit smaller than that strong enough to survive my hammer drill.

Hanging speakers or a TV requires drilling into the concrete wall.  A small
bit is OK for the anchors that I use - 1/4" or 5/16".  But those bits are
nice and short.

dwayne




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2002\07\12@232450 by Herbert Graf

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> At 05:48 PM 7/12/02 +0300, Peter L. Peres wrote:
> >On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Herbert Graf wrote:
> >
> > >necessary to drill a 1/2" hole instead of a 1/4" hole (I only
> have a 1/4"
> > >bit long enough to get through the wall) through over 1 foot of steel
> > >reinforced concrete be my guest. If you feel like buying ready
> made cable
> >
> >What are you wiring up, an army shelter ?! Usually there are softer
> >(thinner) parts you can drill through.
>
> I don't know about Herbert's situation, but here in Edmonton, a *lot* of
> high rise condo buildings are made entirely of concrete.  There are *no*
> wood studs in the apartment at all.  Floor and ceiling are
> concrete as well.

       You are correct, I'm in Toronto and live in a building that is built the
same. It is all solid concrete, most of the walls are relatively thin
(around 2 inches), but the wall between my room and the living room is a
structural wall and is about 12" think, steel reinforced.

> Fishing wires between rooms requires drilling through the concrete
> wall.  I've done this for friends - a good metal detector is essential to
> make sure that you miss any rebar that in the vicinity.  But the smallest
> hole I drilled through those walls was 1/2" - I haven't seen an 18" long
> bit smaller than that strong enough to survive my hammer drill.

       Hehe, never had a metal detector, just kept drilling until I got through, I
usually get through on the first try, every once in a while it takes two
tries. BTW I was wrong, the bit I use is actually 5/16" (just slightly
bigger then 1/2") and is only 16" long. It is a standard Mastercraft bit
(about 10 years old, and it shows, it says: Make in West Germany!). Have
drilled quite a few holes with it. I can't imagine how hard it would be to
get a 1/2" bit through, I get quite a sweat pushing the hammer drill through
the wall with this bit. TTYL

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2002\07\13@071459 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Herbert Graf wrote:

>        Hehe, never had a metal detector, just kept drilling until I got through, I
>usually get through on the first try, every once in a while it takes two
>tries. BTW I was wrong, the bit I use is actually 5/16" (just slightly
>bigger then 1/2") and is only 16" long. It is a standard Mastercraft bit
>(about 10 years old, and it shows, it says: Make in West Germany!). Have
>drilled quite a few holes with it. I can't imagine how hard it would be to
>get a 1/2" bit through, I get quite a sweat pushing the hammer drill through
>the wall with this bit. TTYL

Hehe you're lucky your builder hasn't put any utility channels in or
adjacent to the structural wall's profile (very common) (or at least you
haven't found them yet). Imho get a metal detector ... drilling through a
mains power distribution cable or the phone cable trunk that supports all
the floors above yours is very spectacular in results.

Peter

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2002\07\13@162109 by Herbert Graf

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> >        Hehe, never had a metal detector, just kept drilling
> until I got through, I
> >usually get through on the first try, every once in a while it takes two
> >tries. BTW I was wrong, the bit I use is actually 5/16" (just slightly
> >bigger then 1/2") and is only 16" long. It is a standard Mastercraft bit
> >(about 10 years old, and it shows, it says: Make in West Germany!). Have
> >drilled quite a few holes with it. I can't imagine how hard it
> would be to
> >get a 1/2" bit through, I get quite a sweat pushing the hammer
> drill through
> >the wall with this bit. TTYL
>
> Hehe you're lucky your builder hasn't put any utility channels in or
> adjacent to the structural wall's profile (very common) (or at least you
> haven't found them yet). Imho get a metal detector ... drilling through a
> mains power distribution cable or the phone cable trunk that supports all
> the floors above yours is very spectacular in results.

       Actually it's not a problem, the bit I use is a pure masonary bit, the
feeling of concrete and steel is VERY different with this bit, you could
spend an hour and still not get through a piece of rebar with it. It's
pretty obvious when you hit metal. Aside from that there ARE no power feeds
in the walls I'm talking about, there are vertical raceways that carries all
the power and telephone lines. The only thing in these walls is rebar (no
light switches or outlets are located on these walls). Water is carried
along it's own vertical raceway nearer to the inside of the building. I
don't see how useful a metal detector would be in my case, it would have to
be pretty damn sensitive to pinpoint, within about 1/2", a piece of rebar
embedded more than 6" in solid concrete. TTYL

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