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'[EE]: 2006 games consoles to outperform desktop pc'
2005\05\17@092954 by Peter

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According to this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/17/technology/17sony.html?8hpib

Next year's games consoles will feature 2x3.2GHz cpus (Xbox 360) and a
9x<what core - mips?> for Playstation 3. If that is true than the
consoles will outperform most desktop systems sold in 2006 (few of which
will feature dual CPUs).

Peter


2005\05\17@105943 by Stephen R Phillips

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--- Peter <spam_OUTplpTakeThisOuTspamactcom.co.il> wrote:
>
> According to this article:
>
> www.nytimes.com/2005/05/17/technology/17sony.html?8hpib
>
> Next year's games consoles will feature 2x3.2GHz cpus (Xbox 360) and
> a
> 9x<what core - mips?> for Playstation 3. If that is true than the
> consoles will outperform most desktop systems sold in 2006 (few of
> which
> will feature dual CPUs).
>
> Peter
Well maybe it will be more hackable than the playstation 3. This is not
surpriseing as Sony stated that the design of the graphics subsystem
would be applied to high end machines. Also to note the PS-2 basically
boots linux. Why do you think it was so easy for them to put linux on
it? Well it already has it. However they had to add wrappers in the
driver system so that people wouldn't know how the IO to the hardware
worked (for a while at least).

I might also point out that game consoles are very specific in there
purpose. Thus they have significantly limited resources in terms of
internal memory and writeable space for monkeying with.  They are
designed to run a preconfigured OS (booted from the DVD) that has a
limited number of needed drivers.

So this is really no surprise, it still is mostly inflexible, namely
because of how Sony chose to license making products for it.

Stephen R. Phillips was here
Please be advised what was said may be absolutely wrong, and hereby this disclaimer follows.  I reserve the right to be wrong and admit it in front of the entire world.


               
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2005\05\17@110002 by William Chops Westfield

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On May 17, 2005, at 6:29 AM, Peter wrote:

> Next year's games consoles will feature 2x3.2GHz cpus (Xbox 360)

ouch.  I have a dual 3.2GHz motherboard in my office right now.  I guess
with a game console the sounds of gunshots will overwhelm noise of the
fans?
>

> If that is true than the consoles will outperform most desktop systems
> sold in 2006
Game consoles have exceeded desktop performance for a long time, if you
benchmark
things like end graphics performance.  For things OTHER than graphics
and similar,
most desktop systems aren't CPU-limited anyway.

>  (few of which will feature dual CPUs).
I think you underestimate the number of dual-cpu desktops being
deployed, too.

BillW

2005\05\17@112412 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>> Next year's games consoles will feature 2x3.2GHz cpus (Xbox 360)
>
>ouch.  I have a dual 3.2GHz motherboard in my office right now.  I guess
>with a game console the sounds of gunshots will overwhelm noise of the
>fans?

<VBG>

>>  (few of which will feature dual CPUs).
>I think you underestimate the number of dual-cpu desktops being
>deployed, too.

another VBG

Alan (writing email using his dual CPU desktop)

2005\05\17@120134 by Hulatt, Jon

picon face


> Next year's games consoles will feature 2x3.2GHz cpus (Xbox
> 360) and a 9x<what core - mips?>

No- it's IBM's new "cell" core. a bit odd.

> for Playstation 3. If that
> is true than the consoles will outperform most desktop
> systems sold in 2006 (few of which will feature dual CPUs).
>
> Peter
>
>
> -

2005\05\17@155808 by Peter

picon face

On Tue, 17 May 2005, William Chops Westfield wrote:

> On May 17, 2005, at 6:29 AM, Peter wrote:
>
>> Next year's games consoles will feature 2x3.2GHz cpus (Xbox 360)
>
> ouch.  I have a dual 3.2GHz motherboard in my office right now.  I guess
> with a game console the sounds of gunshots will overwhelm noise of the fans?

huh ;-) There are some nice new fanless coolers out there. At least one
uses heatpipes and a huge case-radiator (a whole side of the case is the
radiator - no need for fins at that size). Conduction cooling is pretty
much standard in more serious equipment (even in camcorders and dvd
players!). It is not cheap. It can easily add $100 to a machine's cost
(pc level hardware).

>> If that is true than the consoles will outperform most desktop systems sold
>> in 2006
> Game consoles have exceeded desktop performance for a long time, if
> you benchmark things like end graphics performance.  For things OTHER
> than graphics and similar, most desktop systems aren't CPU-limited
> anyway.

I am not so sure. The PS2 had a relatively low power cpu one year after
it was released. Sometimes playing the same game on a PS2 and on a PC
was better on the PC (with accelerated AGP graphics) (saw it myself, the
game was Rayman afaik, the PC was a 1.something GHz all-in-one with a
nvidia agp video card).

>>  (few of which will feature dual CPUs).
> I think you underestimate the number of dual-cpu desktops being deployed,
> too.

Maybe I do but most desktop users will not buy a dual anything. You are
probably not the average desktop user (and very few people on this list
would be). Most low cost systems sold today are the all-in-one variety,
with single CPU and huge penalty on concurrent access by cpu and video
to RAM via PCI bus.

Peter

2005\05\17@162040 by Shawn Tan Ser Ngiap

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face
Hi,

Just in case you all didn't know, PS3 trumps Xbox360 on specs... check out
slashdot... I wonder how long it'll take till someone builds a cluster of
these... 8x Processor Cores... 3x Gbit ethernet...

cheers..

--
with metta,
Shawn Tan

2005\05\17@233020 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On May 17, 2005, at 12:58 PM, Peter wrote:

>> I guess
>> with a game console the sounds of gunshots will overwhelm noise of
>> the fans?
>
> There are some nice new fanless coolers out there. At least one uses
> heatpipes and a huge case-radiator (a whole side of the case is the
> radiator - no need for fins at that size). Conduction cooling is
> pretty much standard in more serious equipment (even in camcorders and
> dvd players!). It is not cheap. It can easily add $100 to a machine's
> cost (pc level hardware).

Just the sort of thing one is likely to see on a game console?!  I
thought that
the fancy cooling solutions were somewhat limited in the watts they
could get
rid of.  A 3.xGHz pentium is nearly 100 watts.  And you're talking
about TWO
of them...  (Luckily, the 1.8GHz Pentium-M run stuff at nearly the same
overall
speed, and a fraction of the power dissipation.)

BillW

2005\05\17@235036 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 08:30 PM 5/17/2005 -0700, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Some of the gamers now spend large sums on cooling their overclocked
machines:

http://www.bigfootcomputers.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=Bigfoot&Category_Code=510.25


>Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
.....speffKILLspamspam@spam@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
>>>Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\05\17@235100 by Jake Anderson

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face
both intel and amd have released samples of dual core CPU's
production is slated to begin towards the end of this year
by next year we should see sales in the mid market level.

intel has "officially" stated that its not holding to mores law in terms of
raw clock speed anymore and are "resorting" to parallism to continue
enhancing performance.

I am typing this on my dual 3.06 Xeon with a Nvidia 6600GT (AGP)

> {Original Message removed}

2005\05\18@000728 by techy fellow

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I would think that CPU used in consoles are usually either proprietary or RISC type so as to concentrate on one thing, gaming. This way, it does not require the same complexity or PC's CPU type. Hence, lesser watt need to be dissipated. Further more, console CPUs are usually complimented by very advance GPU which will takes over the bulk of the processing. I think...

William Chops Westfield <westfwspamKILLspammac.com> wrote:
On May 17, 2005, at 12:58 PM, Peter wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Just the sort of thing one is likely to see on a game console?! I
thought that
the fancy cooling solutions were somewhat limited in the watts they
could get
rid of. A 3.xGHz pentium is nearly 100 watts. And you're talking
about TWO
of them... (Luckily, the 1.8GHz Pentium-M run stuff at nearly the same
overall
speed, and a fraction of the power dissipation.)

BillW

2005\05\18@001505 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face

>
> > If that is true than the consoles will outperform most desktop systems
> > sold in 2006
> Game consoles have exceeded desktop performance for a long time,

I *seriously* doubt that, your average Xbox is pushing 320x240 pixels at 30
FPS give or take.
your bottom rung video card is pushing 1024x768 pixels at 40FPS minimum and
doing dynamic lighting and a whole mess of other things better than any
console in terms of graphical quality.

googling a little it seems your current xbox performs roughly just a bit
less than a geforce 4 level
average rule seems to be that whilst a console may have better graphics than
the midrage of PC cards at release a high end PC will as a rule blow the
doors off a console.

> if you
> benchmark
> things like end graphics performance.  For things OTHER than graphics
> and similar,
> most desktop systems aren't CPU-limited anyway.

almost all games when played on a 3Ghz or so (or amd equivilent) computer
are video card limited.

>
> >  (few of which will feature dual CPUs).
> I think you underestimate the number of dual-cpu desktops being
> deployed, too.

well on that we agree

2005\05\18@035840 by Hulatt, Jon

picon face

> >
> >> Next year's games consoles will feature 2x3.2GHz cpus (Xbox 360)
> >
> > ouch.  I have a dual 3.2GHz motherboard in my office right now.  I
> > guess with a game console the sounds of gunshots will
> overwhelm noise of the fans?
>
> huh ;-) There are some nice new fanless coolers out there. At
> least one uses heatpipes and a huge case-radiator (a whole
> side of the case is the radiator - no need for fins at that
> size). Conduction cooling is pretty much standard in more
> serious equipment (even in camcorders and dvd players!). It
> is not cheap. It can easily add $100 to a machine's cost (pc
> level hardware).
>

The Xbob360 has water cooling!

But lets not forget that the TDP of a powerpc core is nowhere near that
of a P7 core. Intel's creations, are, in many ways, crap. discuss.


{Quote hidden}

They usually outperform PC's on day 1, but don't hold it for long
because their closed architecture means no upgrades. Xbox outperforms
PS2 (despite what sony say- just look at the graphics in games that are
on both systems). And xbox has a 700Mhz p3 in it.

PS2's processor, and in fact it's whole system architecture, is
interesting. A very novel design. The core is just not that high on the
raw performance stakes - mips and flops, etc, but the whole architecture
being designed to produce polygons quickly means it can perform very
very well at that. The PC architecture is a whole bucket of flexibility,
and legacy tradeoffs that just aren't wanted or needed in a console.


{Quote hidden}

Mac users have been buying dual CPU systems (mainsteam) for some time
now. PC buyers generally don't; but there's little reason to at the
moment- most PC apps (certainly the ones that can utilise high spec
hardware (eg games) just aren't written to be efficiently multithreaded,
so dual cpu's doesn't provide much bang for your buck. Not to mention
that it's only with windows xp that there's been a consumer level o/s
that can work with more than one cpu. Of course, in the professional
sector it's a different story- modelling, cad, analysis etc software has
been able to use multi-cpu's for a long time.

But with both AMD and Intel now producing dual core cpus, we'll start to
see some software soon that can provide a real reason to use more than
one processor.


jon




2005\05\18@141237 by Peter

picon face

>> There are some nice new fanless coolers out there. At least one uses
>> heatpipes and a huge case-radiator (a whole side of the case is the
>> radiator - no need for fins at that size). Conduction cooling is pretty
>> much standard in more serious equipment (even in camcorders and dvd
>> players!). It is not cheap. It can easily add $100 to a machine's cost (pc
>> level hardware).
>
> Just the sort of thing one is likely to see on a game console?!  I
> thought that the fancy cooling solutions were somewhat limited in the
> watts they could get rid of.  A 3.xGHz pentium is nearly 100 watts.
> And you're talking about TWO of them...  (Luckily, the 1.8GHz
> Pentium-M run stuff at nearly the same overall speed, and a fraction
> of the power dissipation.)

I don't know about Centrino but AMD powered laptops do have a heat
problem (or had one) and they use the heat pipe technology to get rid of
it. The heat pipe technology is able to move really huge amounts of
heat. Essentially it boils a liquid on the cpu and the vapor condenses
on the cooler part. The heat capacity is huge and the hot part will
never exceed the boiling temperature of the liquid until heat input
overcomes the capacity of the device.

Hmm, how much *vacuum* is needed to use *water* as refrigerent and boil
it at ~50C ? (answer: 100mm Hg or about 1/8 at - achievable with a 'van
Guericke' pump (aka bicycle pump with reversed diaphragm and valve)).
Plastic tubing has no trouble withstanding 100 mm Hg (I tried this).
Someone will eventually try this out ;-)

Peter

2005\05\18@205508 by Chen Xiao Fan

face
flavicon
face
I do not know about AMD notebook. I do not those so called
Centrino has heat problem. Maybe because it is a Dell (600M),
my notebook suffered a sudden death just before one year
warranty. It was okay when I used it in US (not so hot).
But it only worked for two months in tropical Singapore
(hot and high humidity). I had to ship it back to USA for
repair since it did not have international warranty. :(
Now it has been working for another year but I always
remember to switch on the air conditioner.

Xiaofan

{Original Message removed}

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