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'[EE]: 1 chip madness'
2001\07\21@012345 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Just stumbled across this "microcontroller". Hard to believe that this wouldn't take the prize for ultimate (so far) single chipper)
12 UARTS
On chip v reg.
Runs on 2 volts at 28 MHz / 28 MIPS
25 x 10 bit A2D
7 PWM
169 I/O
125 IRQs
etc



   RM
_________________________________



http://www.matsushita.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/en010131-3/en010131-3-2.html

Specifications
MN103SF33N: with flash memory
MN103S33N: with mask ROM
Performance/Voltage         40 MIPS / 40 MHz / 2.5 V
                           28 MIPS / 28 MHz / 2.0 V
Power Consumption           200 mW (40 MHz, 2.5 V)
                           90 mW (28 MHz, 2.0 V)
Internal Memory             512 KB flash memory (MN103SF33N)
                           512 KB mask ROM (MN103S33N)
Internal RAM                24 KB
Extended Arithmetic Unit    Multiply-accumulate function:
                           32-bit x 32-bit + 64-bit = 64-bit (1 cycle)
Timer Counter               8-bit: 20 (8/16/24/32-bit selectable),
                           16-bit: 12, WDT: 1
PWM                         7 (12/14-bit: 5, 16-bit: 2)
Serial Interface            UART/Sync./IIC: 10
                           UART: 2
A/D Converter               10-bit: 25 inputs
DMA Controller              4 channels
Input Capture               28-bit: 13
On-chip Regulator           Available at 3V single power source
Bus Interface               Address/data separated bus (data 8/16/32-bit)
                           Address/data common bus (data 8/16-bit)
                           Bus terminal power supply selectable
ROM Collection Function     4 channels
Boundary Scan               Available (JTAG standard)
Interrupt Source            125
IO Port                     169
Package                     256-pin CSP (16-sq.-mm, 0.65-mm pitch)

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2001\07\21@044818 by Ron Anthony

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face
Russel, this chip looks phenomenal.  Do you know what the pricing is?  At
256 pins, the general I/O is mind boggling, considering what I did with 33
on the F877.

{Original Message removed}

2001\07\21@065838 by mike

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face
No-one produces chips like this 'just in case' - I wonder what the
intended vtarget application is  - a single-chip car perhaps ? Must be something pretty special to justify that number of I/Os!

On Sat, 21 Jul 2001 04:50:04 -0400, you wrote:

>Russel, this chip looks phenomenal.  Do you know what the pricing is?  At
>256 pins, the general I/O is mind boggling, considering what I did with 33
>on the F877.
>
>{Original Message removed}

2001\07\21@070733 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> Russel, this chip looks phenomenal.  Do you know what the pricing is?  At
> 256 pins, the general I/O is mind boggling, considering what I did with 33
> on the F877.

What you see on the web page is the sum total of my knowledge. I was looking
for something with 3 UARTS at a low price. This doesn't quite qualify I
suspect.

If anyone finds out more re price and reality I'm sure inquiring minds would
want to know.


       Russell



{Quote hidden}

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2001\07\21@071132 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 11:59 AM 7/21/01 +0100, you wrote:
>No-one produces chips like this 'just in case' - I wonder what the
>intended vtarget application is  - a single-chip car perhaps ?
>Must be something pretty special to justify that number of I/Os!

According to Matsushita:

Major Applications
------------------
DVCs
DSCs
Digital video recorders
Hard disk recorders

IOW, digital consumer electronics, just like they themselves make.
Note the thing is only 13mm square. (0.5" x 0.5"), about the
area of a DIP-28.

Best regards,

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
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2001\07\21@072410 by steve

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face
> No-one produces chips like this 'just in case' - I wonder what the
> intended vtarget application is  - a single-chip car perhaps ? Must be
> something pretty special to justify that number of I/Os!

This one takes the cake but it doesn't look that out of place
amongst Japanese microcontrollers. Mitsubishi, Sharp, Fujitsu,
Toshiba, all make microcontrollers with several of everything in
them. The problem is the typical Japanese business model doesn't
really suit a typical PIC customer. Standard packing quantities of a
sample or a shipping container and development tools in the same
price bracket as the average familly car don't really make them Digi-
key fodder.

Steve.

======================================================
Steve Baldwin                Electronic Product Design
TLA Microsystems Ltd         Microcontroller Specialists
PO Box 15-680, New Lynn      http://www.tla.co.nz
Auckland, New Zealand        ph  +64 9 820-2221
email: .....stevebKILLspamspam@spam@tla.co.nz      fax +64 9 820-1929
======================================================

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2001\07\21@122145 by dpharris

picon face
Hi-
Is this the chip?
www.semicon.panasonic.co.jp/sc/e-data/L50/S08/MN103S33N.pdf
Looks like it is under development (this one has flash memory, others have RAM
or ROM for program memory)
David

Ron Anthony wrote:

> Russel, this chip looks phenomenal.  Do you know what the pricing is?  At
> 256 pins, the general I/O is mind boggling, considering what I did with 33
> on the F877.
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\07\21@124724 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> Just stumbled across this "microcontroller".
> Hard to believe that this wouldn't take the prize for
> ultimate (so far) single chipper)

Ultimate, until you see the price probably.  It looks like this is trying to
compete with some versions of the PowerPC for embedded applications.  Sorry,
but I just wouldn't get much use out of a 32 x 32 multiply accumulate in
generating fonts and figuring out which LED to light when.


********************************************************************
Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, olinspamKILLspamembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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2001\07\21@231641 by myke predko

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face
> > No-one produces chips like this 'just in case' - I wonder what the
> > intended vtarget application is  - a single-chip car perhaps ? Must be
> > something pretty special to justify that number of I/Os!
>
> This one takes the cake but it doesn't look that out of place
> amongst Japanese microcontrollers. Mitsubishi, Sharp, Fujitsu,
> Toshiba, all make microcontrollers with several of everything in
> them. The problem is the typical Japanese business model doesn't
> really suit a typical PIC customer. Standard packing quantities of a
> sample or a shipping container and development tools in the same
> price bracket as the average familly car don't really make them Digi-
> key fodder.

When I looked at the original information, I decided from the last line that
this part wasn't something that would ever challenge the PICmicro (or the
Basic Stamp, 8051, AVR or HC11).  There's no way a hobbyist is going to use
this part - I'm surprised that nobody has commented on use of the CSP
package; 16 mm**2, 0.65 mm between pin centers.

"CSP" is an acronym for "Chip Scale Package" and is a plastic package just
slightly larger than the Silicon Di that is contained within it.  The pins
are eutectic solder "bumps" in a two dimensionaly array and soldered onto a
series of pads.  CSP is a technology designed to avoid the need for placing
and wiring chips directly to a PCB (known as "COB" or "Chip On Board"
technology).  The reason why COB is not considered to be an "ultimate"
technology is because of the reliability isses associated with the
differences in thermal expansion between the silicon chip and the
fibreglass/epoxy PCB along with the copper traces on the PCB.

0.65 mm between pin centers is 0.026".  To put this into perspective,
typical PICmicro MCU SMT distance between lead centers is 0.050" which is
possible to work with at home (I've hand soldered 0.25" QFP ("Fine Pitch")
parts).  But for these parts, there is a row of pins, all of which can be
visually inspected.  The 2-D bumps on the back of this part cannot be
visually inspected - ideally an X-Ray laminography tool would be required to
look for shorts and opens.

I believe the cost to set up a single production line for handling CSP
parts - with rework (removal and replacement of CSP parts) is on the order
of $2.5M.  Double this for an X-Ray laminography tool (Agilant has some nice
ones you can buy - but remember to reinforce your floor; they weigh about 6
tons each)!

Before I would consider it being in any useable for more than something like
mass-produced Cell phones and PDAs, I would like to see this part sold as a
35-50 mm PGA (Pin Grid Array) to start off with maybe some 268 pins QFPs -
which are about 25 mm to a side.

myke

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2001\07\22@045352 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 11:16 PM 7/21/01 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I believe the cost to set up a single production line for handling CSP
>parts - with rework (removal and replacement of CSP parts) is on the order
>of $2.5M.  Double this for an X-Ray laminography tool (Agilant has some nice
>ones you can buy - but remember to reinforce your floor; they weigh about 6
>tons each)!

That may be true, for new stuff anyway, but I would have no problem getting
a small quantity such as 100 pieces of CSP or BGA board assembled, with
X-ray inspection, for a reasonable price, and I don't think anyone else in
an industrialized country would. I agree it's (probably) out of the hobby
category, but it *could* be within easy reach of small businesses. 0201 parts
and the small 8 "pin" NS CSP parts like the old 555 and TL431 are also
things that I will likely never assemble myself with my trusty Weller WCTP
solder station (or the Metcal, for that matter). Some of the COP-8 micros
are available in a 28 pin CSP package, which would be really nice for some
applications (but, IMHO, we need flash/ISP for it to be practical in small
quantities).

>Before I would consider it being in any useable for more than something like
>mass-produced Cell phones and PDAs, I would like to see this part sold as a
>35-50 mm PGA (Pin Grid Array) to start off with maybe some 268 pins QFPs -
>which are about 25 mm to a side.

I'd still send that out, but there are hobbyists who say they can do it. I
have an FPGA (Spartan-II) that is a 208 QFP and not only is it HUGE but
it has way too many pins for me to give it a try. TI's MSP430x14x is in a
64-pin QFP, with 0.5mm pitch, actually *finer* than the Matsushita chip
in question. That's well into 10-20x microscope territory for hand work.

Probably the answer for engineers who want to fool with the chip or whatever
is the evaluation module, a simple PCB with the chip mounted. Similar to
what Z-world/Rabbit are doing with their processors. At 256 pins, though,
that's almost 13 linear inches of double-row 0.1" pin headers (!), so
the board would have to be more than 3" on a side.

I really wish the Japanese would actively promote their 16/32 bit processors
more in the N. American market, including making them very available at a
reasonable price in small quantities.. I get the impression they *still*
don't see flash as much more than a stop on the way to mask. That was
really what made Microchip from a nobody spinoff with an obsolete
architecture into a serious contender-- aggressive marketing and their
embracing the then-new OTP as a *production* strategy. Flash/ISP allows the
processors to be mounted on the boards and the software then loaded in,
so high-density packages become practical in smaller quantities (imagine
how much Yamichii would want for a programming socket for a 256 pin CSP!)
With all those pins, the JTAG pins don't have to be shared either- just
take them to a nice little 2mm header or whatever. Or use test pins on
the PCB and don't bother with a header at all.

I suspect a similar thing is happening with the PICs, a *broadening* of
package options, and the eventual death of the DIP package in larger pin
counts (say, over 20 or 28).

Best regards,

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
.....speffKILLspamspam.....interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.bluecollarlinux.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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2001\07\22@104145 by mike

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On Sun, 22 Jul 2001 04:49:57 -0400, you wrote:

>At 11:16 PM 7/21/01 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>I believe the cost to set up a single production line for handling CSP
>>parts - with rework (removal and replacement of CSP parts) is on the order
>>of $2.5M.  Double this for an X-Ray laminography tool (Agilant has some nice
>>ones you can buy - but remember to reinforce your floor; they weigh about 6
>>tons each)!
>
>That may be true, for new stuff anyway, but I would have no problem getting
>a small quantity such as 100 pieces of CSP or BGA board assembled, with
>X-ray inspection, for a reasonable price, and I don't think anyone else in
>an industrialized country would. I agree it's (probably) out of the hobby
>category, but it *could* be within easy reach of small businesses. 0201 parts
>and the small 8 "pin" NS CSP parts like the old 555 and TL431 are also
>things that I will likely never assemble myself with my trusty Weller WCTP
>solder station (or the Metcal, for that matter). Some of the COP-8 micros
>are available in a 28 pin CSP package, which would be really nice for some
>applications (but, IMHO, we need flash/ISP for it to be practical in small
>quantities).
Actually, CSPs and BGAs are not as difficult as you might think to
hand- assemble, given practice and a steady hand!. The solder balls
make them self-position by surface tension as long as they are roughly
in the right place to start with. I have a friend who routinely
replaces and reflows BGAs on cellphones with nothing more than a
hot-air tool. As for inspection - if you want X-rays, try your local vet, dentist or
hospital ! May take some trial & error with exposures but I'm sure it
would be viable if you only need the odd one or two every so often.
The biggest obstacle to cheap development with the zillion-pin BGA
devices is the need for multilayer PCBs.

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2001\07\23@131450 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> No-one produces chips like this 'just in case' - I wonder what the
> intended vtarget application is - a single-chip car perhaps ?

More like a single chip anything, like a DVD, VCR, MP3 player etc. The
large number of IOs is required to interface to graphical displays in
direct drive mode (or with some drivers on the glass). The DMA
capabilities suggest that it is intended to interface to the main device
datapath directly or not.

Quote a consumer application with lots of IO and some realtime
pretentions, like an inkjet printer, DVD or MP3 player, CDROM CD-RW,
better VCR (double ?) etc and you have its place.

At 16mm^2 I suspect that it requires BGA technology for assembly. Unless
the toaster people have mastered that maybe wait a little bit.

Peter

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