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'[EE]: ...(*Office rant)'
2002\11\28@140719 by Mike Singer

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  Thank you, Morgan, for your response.

  Maybe you are right, I didn't try OpenOffice/StarOffice.
But I have few friends who have both StarOffice and MS Office at their work. They told me I couldn't do some things with  StarOffice:  - MS Automation (MS term)
- VBA similar to VB6 and VBScript
- ActiveX components (MSHFlexGrid and MSComm for example)
- MS SQL Server projects from within MS Access and so on...

  I use Office as development environment mainly, not only for typewriting.  
  Mike.

Morgan Olsson wrote:
> Mike Singer wrote:
> >I have around me in my not so big town
> >hundreds of legal MS products. Who will blame
> >(and control) somebody for using at home copy of
> >such a thing for non-commercial "home brewing" ?
>
> Lot of people...  And for whatever reason use MS Office?
> I certainly don´t want to install MS Office again even if i get it for
free.
>
> If you really want to use an Office suite, take a look at
OpenOffice/StarOffice.
>
> They are file compatible.  Both are about as capable as MSO; some
things
> better, some things maybe worse.
>
> OpenOffice is available not only for Windows, but also for Linux,
Solaris and
> Mac OS X (beta).
>
> Documentations of API, file format etc available.
>
> Help is swift through discussion list (Like PICLIST but wihtout OT...
;) ).
> Of course you may buy StarOffice, and then pay for support if you
want.  Cost
> is about 1/10 of comparable MSOffice functionality, and Licens is
personal: you
> may install on *all* computers you own (laptop, home, office, on
> linux/windows...)(but only you may use it).
> I actually bought StarOffice, but use OpenOffice too.
> With StarOffice there is another database engine, paper manual,
samples, ...
>
> Also, the file formats are well documented so it is possible to build
further
> applications working on the files directly.  (MS formats are secret!
Anyway,
> OOo team have made wonder anyway at importing and exporting in MS
> formats, however the native format is mostly superior in size;
compressed
> XML)
>
> I never used Visio, but in OOo/SO there is a vector based drawing
program
> that i have used to make nice flow-charts with rubberbanding arrows.
I believe
> rubberbanding is nice for schematic wires.
>
>
> I still don´t se a good reason to use a Office suite as base for a
free layout
> utility, but if you should, use one that is well documented, works on
at least
> Windows and Linux, and is free, LEAGALLY of course.
>
> I have been part-time teacher, and i´d say pupils learn SO a little
faster than
> MSO.  Better organized settings, help, and right click anything work
nice.  My
> impression anyway.  But, they are all very similar, so you should not
have a
> hard time getting up to pace with OOo/SO.
> You really shuold try OOo if you have not yet.
http://www.openoffice.org

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2002\11\28@224214 by Dale Botkin

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On Thu, 28 Nov 2002, Mike Singer wrote:

>    I use Office as development environment mainly, not
> only for typewriting.

Wait a minute...  this from the guy who was just complaining a couple of
weeks ago that American movies are crap?  And he considers Office a
development environment?  Wow.

<sigh>...

8-)   Dale

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2002\11\29@114256 by Peter L. Peres

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On Thu, 28 Nov 2002, Mike Singer wrote:

*>   Thank you, Morgan, for your response.
*>
*>   Maybe you are right, I didn't try OpenOffice/StarOffice.
*>But I have few friends who have both StarOffice and
*>MS Office at their work. They told me I couldn't do
*>some things with  StarOffice:
*> - MS Automation (MS term)

That is where you get all those viruses in. No thanks. Staroffice has full
integration and resists viruses so far (f.ex. a Word macro virus will do
nothing in SO while it will ^%&! an installation if opened in Office).
Also SO files can be exchanged between several platforms (each running SO)
without problems, including towards M$ Office.

*> - VBA similar to VB6 and VBScript

SO has StarBasic which works like VBScript. All the usual embedded
programs and objects work as usual, like databases, images, anything you
want. SO is mostly written in Java afaik and there is a way to write your
own modules since one version of SO (OO = OpenOffice) is open source and
has full access to the API.

*> - ActiveX components (MSHFlexGrid and MSComm for example)

There are SO modules and components. ActiveX is a M$ proprietary
technology. SO does not use them because then it would be tied to Windows
platform. It uses its own version of controls (modules) so it works on
several platforms.

*> - MS SQL Server projects from within MS Access and so on...

SO comes with a database of its own and on Unix you have at least a round
dozen of choices, including Informix, DB2, anything with ODBC and ODBC2
connection, Postgresql, Mysql, Oracle, you name it, you have them all.

*>   I use Office as development environment mainly, not
*>only for typewriting.

Good. Then you have legal licenses for all Microsoft components you have
installed, since you develop software on this environment and distribute
it for money. Right ? 95% of non-corporate M$ users cannot afford the
licenses for all the components you have mentioned and use only a subset
thereof. If you would not live in a one-diskette country then you would
know that.

Peter

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2002\11\29@143420 by Mike Singer

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Dale Botkin wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Nov 2002, Mike Singer wrote:
> >    I use Office as development environment mainly, not
> > only for typewriting.
>
> Wait a minute...  this from the guy who was just complaining
> a couple of weeks ago that American movies are crap?
> And he considers Office a development environment?  Wow.
> <sigh>...
> 8-)   Dale

  Hi, Dale!
  Why didn't you ask me How did I know "American
movies are crap" if I didn't use to see them?
  In fact, I do love some with such actors as Dustin Hoffman,
Belushi and many others. Should I mention Chaplin?
  I was (or have been - I don't know English enough) in
a bad mood when posted the message, sorry. Now I feel
like I had to shape my thoughts slightly softer. Thanks
for the chance to clarify this.
  I am not crazy about M$ stuff, especially about the idea
to pay US lots of bucks for this. I wish I had decent and
cheaper alternative, but hadn't find yet. (Thanks to all
guys who gave SO/OO information)

  Best wishes,
  Mike.
-----
PS:
Did I really say "AMERICAN" movies? US, I think.
Or those "one-diskette countries" (Peter Peres
copyright) Canada, Brasilia, Mexico etc do not count?

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2002\11\29@153644 by Peter L. Peres

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Just to clarify: one-diskette country = country where only a single
original software/music etc disk is needed to cover all the market needs,
since the remaining X required million copies are made, er, locally. This
may cause 'value inversions', such as certain popular operating systems
and office productivity software suites being perceived as more available
and more affordable than truly free (as in zero cost) alternatives. This
is not a joke.

Peter

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2002\11\29@164255 by Mike Singer

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Peter L. Peres wrote:
> Just to clarify: one-diskette country = country where only a single
> original software/music etc disk is needed to cover all the market
needs,
> since the remaining X required million copies are made, er, locally.
This
> may cause 'value inversions', such as certain popular operating
systems
> and office productivity software suites being perceived as more
available
> and more affordable than truly free (as in zero cost) alternatives.
This
> is not a joke.

  Sorry, Peter.

  I thought you meant amount of money of the country or
population or something else in bytes.

  Mike.
---
P.S.
Your query for copyright to "one-diskette country" phrase
was rejected. :-)

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2002\11\29@165955 by Mike Singer

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Peter L. Peres wrote:
> ... 95% of non-corporate M$ users cannot afford the
> licenses for all the components you have mentioned
> and use only a subset thereof. If you would not live
> in a one-diskette country then you would know that.

  Peter, have not I said I have around me in my town
hundreds of legally purchased MS products?
  Approximating to all the poor town I could state we
paid US millions bucks for the MS stuff.

  Mike.

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2002\11\29@180928 by Dale Botkin

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On Fri, 29 Nov 2002, Mike Singer wrote:

>    Hi, Dale!
>    Why didn't you ask me How did I know "American
> movies are crap" if I didn't use to see them?

Just poking a little fun, Mike - most of them DO suck! 8-)  From what I've
seen of the rest of the world's movies, though, they just suck differently
than the ones we have.  <grin>

OK, I'll pull on my flame-proof undies now...

Dale

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2002\11\30@040133 by Peter L. Peres

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On Sat, 30 Nov 2002, Mike Singer wrote:

*>Peter L. Peres wrote:
*>> ... 95% of non-corporate M$ users cannot afford the
*>> licenses for all the components you have mentioned
*>> and use only a subset thereof. If you would not live
*>> in a one-diskette country then you would know that.
*>
*>   Peter, have not I said I have around me in my town
*>hundreds of legally purchased MS products?

Er, what is the population of your town ? (expressed in PCs) ? Hundreds ?
More ? <duck>

Peter

*>   Approximating to all the poor town I could state we
*>paid US millions bucks for the MS stuff.

Then you are rich, yes ?

Peter

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2002\11\30@095014 by Roman Black

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Mike Singer wrote:
>
> Peter L. Peres wrote:
> > ... 95% of non-corporate M$ users cannot afford the
> > licenses for all the components you have mentioned
> > and use only a subset thereof. If you would not live
> > in a one-diskette country then you would know that.
>
>    Peter, have not I said I have around me in my town
> hundreds of legally purchased MS products?
>    Approximating to all the poor town I could state we
> paid US millions bucks for the MS stuff.


And such a sad fact that is.
-Roman

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2002\11\30@095028 by Roman Black

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Dale Botkin wrote:
>
> On Fri, 29 Nov 2002, Mike Singer wrote:
>
> >    Hi, Dale!
> >    Why didn't you ask me How did I know "American
> > movies are crap" if I didn't use to see them?
>
> Just poking a little fun, Mike - most of them DO suck! 8-)  From what I've
> seen of the rest of the world's movies, though, they just suck differently
> than the ones we have.  <grin>


Oh come on, most of the most talented people in
the movie industry have migrated to hollywood
over the years, it would be a dumb statement to
say USA movies suck. But it is a nice change to
see a more original (and less commercialised)
European movie every now and then...
:o)
-Roman

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2002\11\30@180426 by Morgan Olsson

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BTW, nice OpenOffice intro:
www.openoffice.org/about_us/openofficeintro.swf
/Morgan
--
Morgan Olsson, Kivik, Sweden

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