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'[EE]: enameled silver wire?'
2002\10\09@123221 by Roman Black

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Hi, does anyone know a good (ie decent price)
source for enameled silver wire? I need some
to wind a high efficiency inductor.
-Roman

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2002\10\09@130623 by Jim

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Since 'skin effect' is applicable at all
frequencies except the very lowest - why
not tell us what you really want to do
and we can cut to the chase and recommend
the use of Litz wire or the use of flat copper ...

Classcically, I have seen silver-plated base
metals being used in those RF circuits where
resistive losses where to be minimized - including
large, free standing tuned RF coils.

RF Jim

{Original Message removed}

2002\10\09@132248 by Dave Tweed

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Roman Black <spam_OUTfastvidTakeThisOuTspamEZY.NET.AU> wrote:
> Hi, does anyone know a good (ie decent price) source for enameled silver
> wire? I need some to wind a high efficiency inductor.

Are you sure it's worth the trouble and expense to use silver wire for a 6%
improvement in resistivity relative to copper?

Usually silver is only used in high-power RF circuits where skin effect is
significant, and then as plating over copper tubing.

-- Dave Tweed

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2002\10\09@135615 by Jim

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There are other methods to reduce losses
and get the 'Q' in a coil up - the use
of toroidal cores comes to mind since
using a core with a permeability much
greater than the "1" that air has will
naturally reduce the number of turns
required for a given coil inductance.

Then depending on frequency, physical core
size and current level the matter of
'magnetic core saturation' becomes a
concern ...


RF Jim

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2002\10\09@150840 by Morgan Olsson

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Core losses can be substantial.  Chose a good material.
And core material also decides required size, thus wire length, thus wire loss.

Depending on core material the size of the core may differ much.
Then there is air gap to calculate/experiment with
Both size and material then decides wire length, thus wire losses
Oh well... you can calculate and test for a half eternity...

Basically, if you need high efficiency it is more economical to spend money on best suitable core material, and efficient shape, i.e spend time to wind on a torodial core.  If high freq use litz (several thin wires twined together), if very low turns high current high freq (5V winding in PC supply) use copper foil and that thin high insuating tape... i forgot the material.

/Morgan

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2002\10\10@005229 by Roman Black

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Jim wrote:
>
> Since 'skin effect' is applicable at all
> frequencies except the very lowest - why
> not tell us what you really want to do
> and we can cut to the chase and recommend
> the use of Litz wire or the use of flat copper ...
>
> Classcically, I have seen silver-plated base
> metals being used in those RF circuits where
> resistive losses where to be minimized - including
> large, free standing tuned RF coils.


Hi Jim, actually I am well aware of skin effect, this
inductor will be operated at frequency of around 100Hz.
And I was planning on using multiple filar anyway
to make it easier to wind for a given resistance. :o)
-Roman

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2002\10\10@005242 by Roman Black

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Dave Tweed wrote:
>
> Roman Black <.....fastvidKILLspamspam@spam@EZY.NET.AU> wrote:
> > Hi, does anyone know a good (ie decent price) source for enameled silver
> > wire? I need some to wind a high efficiency inductor.
>
> Are you sure it's worth the trouble and expense to use silver wire for a 6%
> improvement in resistivity relative to copper?


Is it only 6%?? Darn, I knew I should have looked it
up first. :o)
-Roman

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2002\10\10@005512 by Roman Black

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Morgan Olsson wrote:
>
> Core losses can be substantial.  Chose a good material.
> And core material also decides required size, thus wire length, thus wire loss.
>
> Depending on core material the size of the core may differ much.
> Then there is air gap to calculate/experiment with
> Both size and material then decides wire length, thus wire losses
> Oh well... you can calculate and test for a half eternity...
>
> Basically, if you need high efficiency it is more economical to spend money on best suitable core material, and efficient shape, i.e spend time to wind on a torodial core.  If high freq use litz (several thin wires twined together), if very low turns high current high freq (5V winding in PC supply) use copper foil and that thin high insuating tape... i forgot the material.


Thanks Morgan, actually I have 20 years worth of
cores and toroids in all sizes and materials, and ferrite
Ecores and potcores in many variations. Recently i've
found Jaycar Australia stocking some cheap and high-
performance ferrite toroids, which I tested to perform
better than the expensive specialty Philips potcores
I bought some years ago.

This new app is basically a "toy" or conversation piece,
a low frequency mechanical SMPS "scavenger engine" to
suck the last electrons from dying 1.5v cells, and
charge my good 1.5v NiCd cells. :o)

I've had the opportunity years ago to examine two types
of mechanical high-efficiency SMPS, rotary and vibrator
military types from the '50s.

I thought that an attractive desktop scavenger engine
would be fun to make. :o)
-Roman

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2002\10\10@041919 by Vasile Surducan

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On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Dave Tweed wrote:

> Roman Black <fastvidspamKILLspamEZY.NET.AU> wrote:
> > Hi, does anyone know a good (ie decent price) source for enameled silver
> > wire? I need some to wind a high efficiency inductor.
>
> Are you sure it's worth the trouble and expense to use silver wire for a 6%
> improvement in resistivity relative to copper?
>
  A silver wire means a little chemistry and a clean copper wire.
 Any photo lab amateurs must know how to do it...
 and for an electronist working between 500...1GHz this "how to do" is
 imperative :)

 best, Vasile

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2002\10\10@071608 by Mike Singer

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Vasile Surducan wrote:
> > Roman Black <.....fastvidKILLspamspam.....EZY.NET.AU> wrote:
> > > Hi, does anyone know a good (ie decent price) source for enameled
silver
> > > wire? I need some to wind a high efficiency inductor.
> >
> > Are you sure it's worth the trouble and expense to use silver wire
for a 6%
> > improvement in resistivity relative to copper?
> >
>    A silver wire means a little chemistry and a clean copper wire.
>   Any photo lab amateurs must know how to do it...
>   and for an electronist working between 500...1GHz this "how to do"
is
>   imperative :)

Vasile,
read carefully: "improvement in resistivity relative to copper"
Not thin silver layer resistivity, but the whole wire resistivity.

Mike.

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2002\10\10@100531 by Russell McMahon

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> Recently i've
> found Jaycar Australia stocking some cheap and high-
> performance ferrite toroids, which I tested to perform
> better than the expensive specialty Philips potcores
> I bought some years ago.

The Jaycar cores *APPEAR* to be "Micrometals" products (but may not be).
Micrometals parts have colour coded coatings to reflect the core material
and these colour combinations are copyrighted. However, some cores I was
sent from Taiwan that have never ever graced the shores of the US of A are
identically coded.

Micrometals website     http://www.micrometals.com/    is worth a look and
the cores are very reasonably priced. They have an excellent combination
catalogue and design guide which they may send you if you ask nicely (or
click on the catalog request button). Their book is worth reading - it
explains why you should buy their cores and not other peoples and what might
happen if you don't. You may almost believe them once you read it :-). (My
Taiwanese clones (which I had no choice in the sourcing of) work just fine
in my application - so far.)(In fact "so far" is a major issue - powdered
iron cores DO have an age limit related to time-temperature performance and
an inferior core may well self destruct itself or your design in due
course.)(Due course CAN be very short.)

They also have free power inductor and RF design software.

I bought ?hundred of one type of core from them and samples and 5 or 10 of
quite a few other types. They only charged for the large order and gave me
the rest free. YMMV.



       Russell McMahon

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2002\10\11@150701 by Roman Black

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Russell McMahon wrote:

> > found Jaycar Australia stocking some cheap and high-
> > performance ferrite toroids
>
> The Jaycar cores *APPEAR* to be "Micrometals" products (but may not be).
> Micrometals parts have colour coded coatings to reflect the core material
> (My
> Taiwanese clones (which I had no choice in the sourcing of) work just fine
> in my application - so far.)(In fact "so far" is a major issue - powdered
> iron cores DO have an age limit

Hi Russell, when you say Jaycar toroids with coloured
coatings I think you mean their powdered iron types?
I have been buying these since 1986 in the early grey
coat, and lately in the newer green coat. They are
terrible for SMPS unless you need a lossy core for
actual "choke" use (as opposed to conversion use).

The new Jaycar toroids I was referring to are the bare
ferrite ones on catalogue page 79, these are SUPERB
compared to the powdered iron type. I've been testing
their new ferrite toroids over the last couple of weeks,
getting around 12x the inductance for the same turns
as the iron ones, and much better current/saturation
performance.

I've *hated* those lossy iron things for years, which
is why I have a heap of expensive specialty Philips
and RS ferrite cores for SMPS use. But these new ferrite
toroids outperform anything I have here including all
the ferrite toroids I have salvaged from commercial
SMPS units.

As an example the 18mm diameter ring with one layer
of 0.8mm wire (30 turns) is 800uH and 0.027 ohms.
The 25mm ring with one layer 1.0mm wire (32 turns)
is 1400uH and 0.023 ohms! I can't get figures like
these even on expensive potcores 3 times the size.

BTW I have some old powdered iron ones that *have*
rusted and split open, but some have hung in there
in use for 16 years. :o)
-Roman

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