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'[EE]: Allocation site?'
2001\02\09@113439 by Dal Wheeler

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After fighting allocation problems with the TI/Benchmarq's UC3906N I find
I'm going to have to redesign this board. What I'm wondering is if anyone
knows a site that lists parts that have allocation problems?  (ya before
someone says it -http://www.maximic.com haha :')  )

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2001\02\09@115057 by M. Adam Davis

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Murphy's law as applied to parts allocation:

All parts will be abundantly available during design.
Parts will continue to be available during prototyping and testing.
Parts will cease to exist (see: Where do dryers transport socks?) just
shortly after the production run of the circuit board and housing.

Once the board is emergency redesigned the original parts will become
available again, but only after the old board were modified, sold, or
destroyed.

Adam's correllary:
Cheap, Available, easy to design with.
Pick two.

-Adam

Dal Wheeler wrote:
>
> After fighting allocation problems with the TI/Benchmarq's UC3906N I find
> I'm going to have to redesign this board. What I'm wondering is if anyone
> knows a site that lists parts that have allocation problems?  (ya before
> someone says it -http://www.maximic.com haha :')  )
>
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2001\02\09@121224 by Dan Michaels

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Adam Davis wrote:
>Murphy's law as applied to parts allocation:
>
>All parts will be abundantly available during design.
>Parts will continue to be available during prototyping and testing.
>Parts will cease to exist (see: Where do dryers transport socks?) just
>shortly after the production run of the circuit board and housing.
>
>Once the board is emergency redesigned the original parts will become
>available again, but only after the old board were modified, sold, or
>destroyed.
>
>Adam's correllary:
>Cheap, Available, easy to design with.
>Pick two.
>

Corollary 2:
Watch out when designing in Atmel, Cypress, Motorola 6805xxxxx
[where xxxxx=500 different versions, all on allocation], some
newer Linear Tech and TI parts.

Others???

Maybe techref should have a list of parts people have had
trouble getting -----> James?

- danM

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2001\02\09@123640 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 12:12 PM 2/9/01 -0500, you wrote:

>Corollary 2:
>Watch out when designing in Atmel, Cypress, Motorola 6805xxxxx
>[where xxxxx=500 different versions, all on allocation], some
>newer Linear Tech and TI parts.
>
>Others???

Some of the more attractive Philips parts. Analog devices
(many of their parts). Usually Microchip, Natsemi and TI are
reliable IME and for the past decade Motorola's OTP '05 parts
have been no problem if you use the popular ones, such as the
MC68HC705C8 (3.95 each for 40 pin 8K processor with 384 RAM).

Maybe it would be easier to make a list of the *reliable*
sources?

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2001\02\09@123841 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Motorola 6805xxxxx
>[where xxxxx=500 different versions, all on allocation],

I suspect this is 9/10ths of the problem. There are so many versions of some of
these chips that I really do wonder how some people decide which one to use. I
suspect it starts with finding out which one is not on allocation, and by the
time the design gets to production that chip is on allocation because everyone
else has done the same thing... and so select the next one not on allocation,
and by the time the first production run is made that is on allocation..... etc.
It is a certain amount of chasing the dogs tail.

I do wonder how much of the allocation problem would be fixed if the number of
versions was cut down so the production plant did not need to change wafer
setups, and instead put that time into production.

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2001\02\09@132913 by jamesnewton

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Anybody who wants to can create that page and start posting information to
it. techref is a COLLABORATIVE site where ALL members can directly post to
the site anything they wish. They can even create new pages and edit them.

So if you went to
http://www.piclist.com/techref/cpus.htm
and logged in (at the bottom of the page) and then used the little form to
enter a public link with text something like "Allocation Problems" to a page
called "onallocation.htm", the server would A) modify cpus.htm to add the
link to onallocation.htm, B) create onallocation.htm (making you the owner)
and C) redisplay cpus.htm. Now you can follow the link to onallocation.htm
(Its a  blank page with just the title) and again use the little form on the
bottom to add a public comment about the part you couldn't get (don't enter
a file or url unless you want to link to somewhere)

(And boy do I wish more people would do things like that... I get tired of
being the only person updating the site.)

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{Original Message removed}

2001\02\09@142804 by James Korman

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I'm afraid it's not just the electronics industry. As
I write it's 10 Deg F and falling, just shy of a foot
of snow fell overnight...So the local department stores
have....You guessed it, shorts, tee-shirts and swimware
you can't get in July because their selling winter stuff.

I thought computers were supposed to fix problems like this.

"Alan B. Pearce" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\02\09@143733 by Dan Michaels

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Alan B. Pearce wrote:
>>Motorola 6805xxxxx
>>[where xxxxx=500 different versions, all on allocation],
>
>I suspect this is 9/10ths of the problem. There are so many versions of some of
>these chips that I really do wonder how some people decide which one to use.
>
>I do wonder how much of the allocation problem would be fixed if the number of
>versions was cut down so the production plant did not need to change wafer
>setups, and instead put that time into production.
>

Alan, I completely agree with you. I often wonder what thought
processes go into deciding to have so many versions of every
little thing these days. I usually attribute it to the infamous
"McDonald-ization" of american society - everybody figures McD
is/are so successful they should be emulated.

Back in the early 90s, I was consulting with a company that had
been using about 5000 of a particular 6805-variant every year for
about 5 years, and then suddenly couldn't get them anymore - the
chips weren't phased out, just on allocation [ie, generally
unavailable] status. This lesson taught me a very lot about
companies with 500 "variants".

And related to Adam Davis asking about PIC availability, just a
couple of days ago, I was looking at an Mchp brochure [2 years
old now!!] about the 18Cxxx - and Mchp was actually "bragging"
about "... PICmicro family is comprised of more than 500 different
device configurations ..." - and I thought "deja vu" [and began
to wonder whether they had hired all the old Mot execs].
Hmmmm ????????

- danM

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2001\02\09@144416 by Dan Michaels

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Spehro Pefhany wrote:
.....
>
>Maybe it would be easier to make a list of the *reliable*
>sources?
>

I have been using TI TLE2082 opamps and Linear Tech LTC1400/1404
A/Ds for several years now, and last year for about 6 months I
had "serious" hit and miss problems getting both from the usual
vendors. Both of these are relatively-new, high-performance
parts, and maybe it was a ramp-up problem.

- danM

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2001\02\09@144955 by Dan Michaels

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James Newton wrote:

>
>(And boy do I wish more people would do things like that... I get tired of
>being the only person updating the site.)
>

Am I wrong, or are you not also the guy getting rich off of it?
[you will recall when I asked what your advertising rates were
recently - ie, last week - you said you were going to raise
them, as piclist was getting so popular - care to publish the
books?? - ;)].

- danM

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2001\02\09@150715 by M. Adam Davis

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It all boils down to money.  It costs them the same amount of money to
create a device with few peripherals as it does to create on with a dozen
peripherals.  They can charge more for the one with a dozen peripherals,
unless it's their only offering.  So they have to at least offer and
create both chips so they can profit from the markup of the second one.

In a larger sense you can see the same pricing from intel and amd for
their 80xxx chips.  It costs intel about the same amount of money to
create the new celeron 600 as it does to create the PIII 1GHz.  But if
they didn't have the celeron they could sell it for nearly as much as they
do now.

Same with Mchip.  It really doesn't cost much more to produce an f876 than
the 16c56, and if they got rid of the c56 and produced a greater amount of
f876 then the cost would even out in volume and manufacturing
optimizations.

But they couldn't sell the F8xx chips for $5 without a foundation of $1
chips.  I think motorola may be taking this concept a bit too far,
though...

We can apply the Unix concept here: Do one thing, do it well.

-Adam

"Alan B. Pearce" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\02\09@165122 by jamesnewton

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On the subject of your accusation, see my post
[OT]: #3's Books (was Allocation site?)

On the subject of a site to track allocation problems, is there interest in
a parametric PIC CPU selector with a place for anyone to contribute notes /
update the information? Would anyone be willing to work at updating it? We
could have a section to log allocation problems...

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{Original Message removed}

2001\02\09@165334 by Dal Wheeler

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----- Original Message -----
From: M. Adam Davis <RemoveMEadavisTakeThisOuTspamspamUBASICS.COM>
>
> We can apply the Unix concept here: Do one thing, do it well.
>

Well, my part (UC3906) did basically just that.  It only comes in a couple
of different flavors --none of which are available.  I wonder why no one
else seems to care about lead acid battery charging anymore;  you can find
hundreds of lithium ion, nicad, and NiMH smart chargers; but no lead acids.
I wish Sipex or even Maxxim would do a knock-off of this thing.  Oh well...

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2001\02\09@170342 by Scott Dattalo

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On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Dal Wheeler wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: M. Adam Davis <RemoveMEadavisKILLspamspamUBASICS.COM>
> >
> > We can apply the Unix concept here: Do one thing, do it well.
> >
>
> Well, my part (UC3906) did basically just that.  It only comes in a couple
> of different flavors --none of which are available.  I wonder why no one
> else seems to care about lead acid battery charging anymore;  you can find
> hundreds of lithium ion, nicad, and NiMH smart chargers; but no lead acids.
> I wish Sipex or even Maxxim would do a knock-off of this thing.  Oh well...

Probably because only prisoner superintendents like working with Gel-cells (get
it :).

But seriously, controlling a lead acid battery is so much easier than
controlling an NiMH. I've used the 3906 in several designs, and it's a wonderful
part. It's only downfall is that the temperature dependent voltage source is not
available for external use. (Which is why I didn't use it in one design). In my
experience lead acid batteries are very resilient. The only thing you really
have to watch is that the float voltage is not too high or low - and remember
that it's temperature dependent. For my bike battery I just throw it on a
current limited power supply...

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2001\02\10@100433 by mike

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On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:37:33 -0500, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Not sure I agree  :.
Microchip : zillions of variants, no supply problems
Atmel : very few varients, all unobtainable (until recently)

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2001\02\10@100443 by mike

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On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:05:27 -0500, you wrote:

>It all boils down to money.  It costs them the same amount of money to
>create a device with few peripherals as it does to create on with a dozen
>peripherals.  They can charge more for the one with a dozen peripherals,
>unless it's their only offering.  So they have to at least offer and
>create both chips so they can profit from the markup of the second one.
Not entirely true. There are 2 basic cost issues in making chips : More peripherals = more die area  = fewer die per wafer = more cost
per die.
The only exception to this is where the design is pad-limited, i.e.
the die size required for the bond pads is such that more stuff can be
added to the die without increasing the size. This is why you don't
often see very simple chips with lots of pins.
More peripherals = more test time = lower throughput = more cost per
die.
In some cases, testing can be the most expensive step in production.  
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2001\02\10@145157 by Dan Michaels

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Mike Harrison wrote:
.......
>>Back in the early 90s, I was consulting with a company that had
>>been using about 5000 of a particular 6805-variant every year for
>>about 5 years, and then suddenly couldn't get them anymore - the
>>chips weren't phased out, just on allocation [ie, generally
>>unavailable] status. This lesson taught me a very lot about
>>companies with 500 "variants".
>Not sure I agree  :.
>Microchip : zillions of variants, no supply problems
>Atmel : very few varients, all unobtainable (until recently)


Well, having lived through it with Mot, and given the way Mchp
is popping out new variants, it remains to be seen whether they
can keep them all in production as time goes on - but past
experience [not superstition] gives one pause.

I suspect this is a kind of "threshold" phenomenon. One day
comes, and it's big a new billion$$ fab facility, or change
your dynamics. I am sure operations theory types know these
answers better than a lowly design engineer [me] - I'm just
caught in the middle. I wanted to design some FIFOs into a
product last year, but no one in the US had them [or the 40
other variants] in stock --> forget the FIFOs.

Re Atmel, it is probably a totally different issue - more
like ramp-up problems due to high demand, rather than
decisions on which/when to manufacture.

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2001\02\12@063911 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Not sure I agree  :.
>Microchip : zillions of variants, no supply problems
>Atmel : very few varients, all unobtainable (until recently)

Well only if you do not include all the EEPROM chips atmel makes as variant
chips. As I understood the situation there, the EPROM chips for the cell phone
market was what used up production time, and pushed their micros onto the back
burner, so to speak.

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