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'[EE]: 4w tube circuit'
2001\05\08@101031 by Roman Black

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Hi, I just uploaded the 4w fluoro tube driver circuit
that I reverse-engineered from that cheap night light.
Perfect for a home built UV Eraser using a standard G4T5
4w UV tube.

I also put up the other 4w circuit posted by Florian
(hope you don't mind) and a novel 120v AC LED light
circuit from a commercial traffic light solid-state
bulb that was posted by Richard (at his request).

They are here:
http://centauri.ezy.net.au/~fastvid/tube4w.htm

(note! there are photos and the page is about 200kb)
:o)
-Roman

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2001\05\08@101908 by Bob Ammerman

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I have a use for the original F4T5 tube you remove to make the eraser:

Mount this tube so that it is half inside and half outside the lightproof
box. It may serve as a 'pilot light' to tell you the G4T5 is on.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

{Original Message removed}

2001\05\08@102454 by Roman Black

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Bob Ammerman wrote:
>
> I have a use for the original F4T5 tube you remove to make the eraser:
>
> Mount this tube so that it is half inside and half outside the lightproof
> box. It may serve as a 'pilot light' to tell you the G4T5 is on.

Ha ha! Perfect!! I was just about to post a question
asking what type of clear/coloured filter I could use
to see the bulb in action but kill the UV.
Thanks Bob!
:o)
-Roman


> {Original Message removed}

2001\05\08@105449 by David VanHorn

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At 12:21 AM 5/9/01 +1000, Roman Black wrote:
>Bob Ammerman wrote:
> >
> > I have a use for the original F4T5 tube you remove to make the eraser:
> >
> > Mount this tube so that it is half inside and half outside the lightproof
> > box. It may serve as a 'pilot light' to tell you the G4T5 is on.
>
>Ha ha! Perfect!! I was just about to post a question
>asking what type of clear/coloured filter I could use
>to see the bulb in action but kill the UV.
>Thanks Bob!
>:o)
>-Roman

I've used flourescent plastic rods that they sell at hobby shops.
It's a light, and a light-pipe, all in one.

And under the right excitation, they can lase.

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2001\05\08@110447 by Sean H. Breheny

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Hi Dave,

I thought you said that you didn't build UV erasers! ;-)

Sean

At 09:54 AM 5/8/01 -0500, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2001\05\08@110839 by Roman Black

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David VanHorn wrote:
{Quote hidden}

That's cool too! I bet they would glow pretty good.
Does the material eventually break down from the
UV exposure? We had some great fluoro paint but
it only lasts a month or two outdoors.
-Roman

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2001\05\08@112920 by David VanHorn

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At 11:05 AM 5/8/01 -0400, Sean H. Breheny wrote:
>Hi Dave,
>
>I thought you said that you didn't build UV erasers! ;-)

Not that I haven't, but it's been a while.
The last one was for mass production, used four 18" tubes to erase a whole
wad of EPROMs at a time.
Couldn't buy what I wanted, so I built it.

When you're running two 20 wide gang-bangers all day, you need some serious
erase capability.

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2001\05\08@113150 by David VanHorn

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>
>That's cool too! I bet they would glow pretty good.
>Does the material eventually break down from the
>UV exposure? We had some great fluoro paint but
>it only lasts a month or two outdoors.
>-Roman

Yes, it's only good for a few shots.
The guys at coherent like making wierd stuff lase.
You want the ones that are mostly transparent, but have the dye.
Looks like watered-down antifreeze.

Coincidentally, watered down antifreeze works too.

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2001\05\08@120358 by Mg

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> Yes, it's only good for a few shots.
> The guys at coherent like making wierd stuff lase.
> You want the ones that are mostly transparent, but have the dye.
> Looks like watered-down antifreeze.
>
> Coincidentally, watered down antifreeze works too.
>
> --
> Dave's Engineering Page: http://www.dvanhorn.org
> Where's dave? http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/find.cgi?kc6ete-9

Can I find any of the guys experimentations on the web?

-Mg

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2001\05\08@193129 by rottosen

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Thanks, Roman, for posting the LED traffic schematic.

Comments from Romans' post:
"Richard Ottosen posted a circuit from a commercial LED traffic light,
this is a curious device that seems to run directly from 120v AC mains,
even though it is a semiconductor light using LED's. I think this is to
allow it to be a complete plug-in replacement for the incandescent
spotlights
normally used in traffic lights. Very nifty, assuming the simple
electronics
don't fail this light "bulb" should last just about forever.

Also interesting is that the transformerless supply uses a 6.8uF
capacitor,
this is the biggest i've seen and is a lot more current/power than
normally
used in transformerless systems. I'm not sure what the total
voltage/current
of the compound LED module is but I'm guessing about 150mA total."

More about the LED traffic light:
The lamps do run directly from 120vac, 60Hz. The frequency is important
because the impedance of the big capacitor is what limits the current
into the LED's. I am guessing that this current is about 30ma peak and
about 20ma average in each of the 6 parallel strings of LED's. This
pretty well agrees with Roman's estimate. This works out to be 6 or 7
watts of LED power (the cap, of course, dissipates no power).

These LED lights are getting real common here in Denver, Colorado. They
started to install the red lamps a few years ago. and now almost all of
the red lamps are the LED type. Now they are replacing the green lights
with LED lamps. The green LED's seem to be real bright. I perceive them
as almost piercing. I think it is because they are right in the middle
of the eye's color sensitivity.

I am told that the lamps that the LED lamps replace are 60 or 70 watt
incandescent lamps. With the lower power and longer life, it is easy to
see why the LED's are becoming so popular.


-- Rich


Roman Black wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\05\09@183128 by Peter L. Peres

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> Ha ha! Perfect!! I was just about to post a question
> asking what type of clear/coloured filter I could use
> to see the bulb in action but kill the UV.
> Thanks Bob!
> :o)
> -Roman

A sheet of white paper over a 8mm hole will do fine. Take medium heavy
paper (90+g). Cover the outside with a microscope slide if you are
paranoid (ordinary glass stops most dangerous UV).

Peter

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2001\05\09@183155 by Peter L. Peres

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Hi Roman,

just for the record, does your fluoro light bear some stamped or printed
inscription that says something like 'pat. pend. xxxxxxxx' where the x's
represent a number ? (I mean the body not the bulb).

Peter

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2001\05\09@184005 by David VanHorn

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>
>A sheet of white paper over a 8mm hole will do fine. Take medium heavy
>paper (90+g). Cover the outside with a microscope slide if you are
>paranoid (ordinary glass stops most dangerous UV).

Indeed, despite claims of glasses manufacturers to the contrary.

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2001\05\10@041337 by Roman Black

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Peter L. Peres wrote:
>
> Hi Roman,
>
> just for the record, does your fluoro light bear some stamped or printed
> inscription that says something like 'pat. pend. xxxxxxxx' where the x's
> represent a number ? (I mean the body not the bulb).

No I couldn't see a patent mark like on many
electrical goods.
There is a CS910061V number, which I think is a
safety certification number?
-Roman

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2001\05\10@041755 by Roman Black

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David VanHorn wrote:
>
> >
> >A sheet of white paper over a 8mm hole will do fine. Take medium heavy
> >paper (90+g). Cover the outside with a microscope slide if you are
> >paranoid (ordinary glass stops most dangerous UV).
>
> Indeed, despite claims of glasses manufacturers to the contrary.


I'm still preferring Bob's idea, using the spare
F4T5 tube as a view window. Even if it doesn't
glow that well I like the idea of two layers of
glass and two layers of fluoro powder (UV safety),
and it's obviously going to last quite a while.
The fluoro clear plastics and even paper would
go bad after a lot of UVC exposure i'm sure.
:o)
-Roman

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2001\05\10@091231 by Jeff DeMaagd

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----- Original Message -----
From: David VanHorn <dvanhornspamKILLspamCEDAR.NET>

> >A sheet of white paper over a 8mm hole will do fine. Take medium heavy
> >paper (90+g). Cover the outside with a microscope slide if you are
> >paranoid (ordinary glass stops most dangerous UV).
>
> Indeed, despite claims of glasses manufacturers to the contrary.

Um... don't a LOT of glasses use plastic lenses?  Does that change anything?

I can't say much for the UV that penetrates the atmosphere, but the manual
for my UV EPROM eraser says that most glass does not let the specific UV
erasing light spectrum needed to erase chips, that's why the eraser bulbs
need quartz for the "glass" material.  So at the very least, the erasing
part of the spectrum will be blocked.

Where can I look up info about ordinary glass (or plastic) blocking _all_
the nasty UV?

Jeff

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2001\05\10@110040 by Dan Larson

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On Thu, 10 May 2001 09:08:23 -0400, Jeff DeMaagd wrote:

>
>Where can I look up info about ordinary glass (or plastic) blocking _all_
>the nasty UV?
>


Look into what they use to UV coat eye glasses. I don't worry too much about
brief UV exposure when I'm wearing my glasses. They do quite well at blocking
it. I demonstrated their effect by holding them partially over a flourescent piece
of paper witht he UV tube on. The flourescent dye did not light up behind the lenses.

Not don't go preaching to me about UV safety  for looking at my UV tube. I only
did it once and very briefly. I just *had* to see what it looked like <G>.

By the way....

A good place to get Germacidal UV lamps is

http://www.lighthouse.com

I purchased my F8T15 BL tube for exposing photo-resist  PCBs from their
retail store in Minneapolis for only $5.  The retail store has a front page site at
the following URL, but they link to LightHouse.Com for online sales. They have
all kinds of exotic lights and such.

http://www.vanolite.com

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2001\05\10@112544 by David VanHorn

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At 09:08 AM 5/10/01 -0400, Jeff DeMaagd wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: David VanHorn <dvanhornspamspam_OUTCEDAR.NET>
>
> > >A sheet of white paper over a 8mm hole will do fine. Take medium heavy
> > >paper (90+g). Cover the outside with a microscope slide if you are
> > >paranoid (ordinary glass stops most dangerous UV).
> >
> > Indeed, despite claims of glasses manufacturers to the contrary.
>
>Um... don't a LOT of glasses use plastic lenses?  Does that change anything?

None that I wear are plastic.  Plastic scratches easily.
I didn't check plastic.
Glass blocks the short wave UV that is harmful. Long wave UV gets through,
but isn't harmful.
Of course they still want to sell you a "UV" coating..


>I can't say much for the UV that penetrates the atmosphere, but the manual
>for my UV EPROM eraser says that most glass does not let the specific UV
>erasing light spectrum needed to erase chips, that's why the eraser bulbs
>need quartz for the "glass" material.  So at the very least, the erasing
>part of the spectrum will be blocked.

True. Drop a piece of glass, or a glasses lens, on top of your Eprom,  and
try erasing it.
It will be an excersize in patience.

>Where can I look up info about ordinary glass (or plastic) blocking _all_
>the nasty UV?

That's a problem of definition.  There's a pretty wide field called "UV".
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2001\05\10@112712 by David VanHorn

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At 10:01 AM 5/10/01 -0600, Dan Larson wrote:
>On Thu, 10 May 2001 09:08:23 -0400, Jeff DeMaagd wrote:
>
> >
> >Where can I look up info about ordinary glass (or plastic) blocking _all_
> >the nasty UV?
> >
>
>
>Look into what they use to UV coat eye glasses. I don't worry too much about
>brief UV exposure when I'm wearing my glasses. They do quite well at blocking
>it. I demonstrated their effect by holding them partially over a
>flourescent piece
>of paper witht he UV tube on. The flourescent dye did not light up behind
>the lenses.

Try it with "uncoated" lenses, and see what you get.
I bet it's followed by a small stabbing pain in the wallet.

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2001\05\10@142147 by Peter L. Peres

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> >paper (90+g). Cover the outside with a microscope slide if you are
> >paranoid (ordinary glass stops most dangerous UV).
>
> Indeed, despite claims of glasses manufacturers to the contrary.

?! 250nm is stopped *dead* by normal glass. If there is oxygen or nitrogen
in the air (as in, air) 20 cm of it will get you rid of 250nm too. Why do
they claim otherwise ? You need something that is really hard to ionize to
get 250nm across it. Like a vacuum. I think that they evacuate the outer
bulbs of those mercury vapor lamps completely.

I once used a 250nm bulb for EPROM erasing in a pinch and it took four
times longer than usual until I put it directly over the EPROM window.
That did the trick (no air in between) and the EPROM was wiped in 3
minutes (instead of 10 with a normal bulb).

Peter

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2001\05\10@183116 by David VanHorn

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At 07:46 PM 5/10/01 +0300, Peter L. Peres wrote:
> > >paper (90+g). Cover the outside with a microscope slide if you are
> > >paranoid (ordinary glass stops most dangerous UV).
> >
> > Indeed, despite claims of glasses manufacturers to the contrary.
>
>?! 250nm is stopped *dead* by normal glass. If there is oxygen or nitrogen
>in the air (as in, air) 20 cm of it will get you rid of 250nm too. Why do
>they claim otherwise ?

They <SELL>  UV coatings..  get it?

Like Polar Bear rattles.


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2001\05\10@223956 by Gennette, Bruce

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-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff DeMaagd [TakeThisOuTjeffEraseMEspamspam_OUTDEMAAGD.COM]
Sent: Thursday, 10 May 2001 23:08
To: RemoveMEPICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [EE]: 4w tube circuit


----- Original Message -----
From: David VanHorn <dvanhornEraseMEspam.....CEDAR.NET>

> >A sheet of white paper over a 8mm hole will do fine. Take medium heavy
> >paper (90+g). Cover the outside with a microscope slide if you are
> >paranoid (ordinary glass stops most dangerous UV).
>
> Indeed, despite claims of glasses manufacturers to the contrary.

Um... don't a LOT of glasses use plastic lenses?  Does that change anything?

I can't say much for the UV that penetrates the atmosphere, but the manual
for my UV EPROM eraser says that most glass does not let the specific UV
erasing light spectrum needed to erase chips, that's why the eraser bulbs
need quartz for the "glass" material.  So at the very least, the erasing
part of the spectrum will be blocked.

Where can I look up info about ordinary glass (or plastic) blocking _all_
the nasty UV?

Jeff

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In our Analytical Chemistry labs we analyse the wavelengths of light
absorbed by a solution or emitted by highly excited ions in flames or plasma
in the range - infra red, through visible to ultraviolet.
We *HAVE* to use quartz containers and aperture windows for the ultraviolet,
glass *AND* plastic absorb these wavelengths too much.

Also my welding mask uses plastic outer safety covers.  So I guess that that
plastic is Ok for UV protection. And I guess a piece of welding mask safety
cover would be Ok as the first layer (closest to tube) in an indicator hole
in your eraser.

Bye.

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2001\05\10@225030 by David VanHorn

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>
> > Indeed, despite claims of glasses manufacturers to the contrary.
>
>Um... don't a LOT of glasses use plastic lenses?  Does that change anything?

I can't say for sure. I don't wear polycarbonate.

>I can't say much for the UV that penetrates the atmosphere, but the manual
>for my UV EPROM eraser says that most glass does not let the specific UV
>erasing light spectrum needed to erase chips, that's why the eraser bulbs
>need quartz for the "glass" material.  So at the very least, the erasing
>part of the spectrum will be blocked.
>
>Where can I look up info about ordinary glass (or plastic) blocking _all_
>the nasty UV?

I don't think I ever said "ALL".
However, I see it as largely a problem of definition.
It seems to me, that the main thrust is to sell UV coatings, that the
customer can't even tell are there. (Are they there?)



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2001\05\10@231744 by Jeff DeMaagd

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----- Original Message -----
From: David VanHorn <RemoveMEdvanhornTakeThisOuTspamspamCEDAR.NET>

> It seems to me, that the main thrust is to sell UV coatings, that the
> customer can't even tell are there. (Are they there?)

My optometrist has never tried to sell me UV coatings.  I've only seen it
marketed on sunglasses.

I do know a guy that had glasses that would turn black with certain
"dangerous" bands of UV light.  Certain kinds of stage lights would actually
set them off.

I am curious what this deal about sunscreen is if normal air can supposedly
block most of the nasties, there must still be a somewhat damaging band that
isn't sufficiently blocked, otherwise I wouldn't think scientists would be
so concerned with upper atmospheric ozone.

Jeff

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2001\05\11@003313 by Josh Koffman

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Once again, like a moron, I've sent this to a single person. Sorry about
that Dan. Let's hope I remember to check the To: section next time.

-j

Josh Koffman wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\05\11@005645 by David VanHorn

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>
>My optometrist has never tried to sell me UV coatings.  I've only seen it
>marketed on sunglasses.

They do it all the time here.

>I do know a guy that had glasses that would turn black with certain
>"dangerous" bands of UV light.  Certain kinds of stage lights would actually
>set them off.

I have photogrey, have had since I was 12.


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2001\05\11@053452 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> I do know a guy that had glasses that would turn black with certain
> "dangerous" bands of UV light.  Certain kinds of stage lights would
> actually set them off.

I wear prescription glasses and they turn 60% dark in sunlight. They turn
80% dark under an UV eraser lamp ;-)

> I am curious what this deal about sunscreen is if normal air can
> supposedly block most of the nasties, there must still be a somewhat
> damaging band that isn't sufficiently blocked, otherwise I wouldn't
> think scientists would be so concerned with upper atmospheric ozone.

There is a band that it not blocked well but don't compare an umpteen watt
source like the sun to an UV eraser. I am not an expert on this but I
understand that the biological effect of the sun UV happens by cumulative
effect, over months and years. Here a change of a few tenths of a percent
can have important consequences. Or to put it in perspective, 5% of 4W is
20mW, and 1% of 2000W/m^2 over several millions of square kilometers of
ozone layer is something you do not want to think about (I am not sure
about the 2000W/m^2 figure - Alice ? ;-).

Btw, Mercury vapor is supposed to make about 50lm/W. At 4W that's 200lm.
That's a pretty low number for erasing no ? How long does it take ? (I use
a 250W high pressure lamp = 12500lm by the same calculation <g>). I may
switch to 4 x 500W soon. Is there any chance of damage to the chip with
such strong lights ?

Peter

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2001\05\11@072732 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> I am curious what this deal about sunscreen is if normal air can
supposedly
> block most of the nasties, there must still be a somewhat damaging band
that
> isn't sufficiently blocked, otherwise I wouldn't think scientists would be
> so concerned with upper atmospheric ozone.

The UV from a mercury vapor tube is much shorter wavelength than the UV that
gets thru the atmosphere and causes sunburn.  This longer wavelength "near
visible" UV is what UV coatings on glasses and UV filters from cameras are
intended to filter out.


********************************************************************
Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, @spam@olin@spam@spamspam_OUTembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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2001\05\11@084754 by Jeff DeMaagd

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----- Original Message -----
From: David VanHorn <.....dvanhornspam_OUTspamCEDAR.NET>

> >I do know a guy that had glasses that would turn black with certain
> >"dangerous" bands of UV light.  Certain kinds of stage lights would
actually
> >set them off.
>
> I have photogrey, have had since I was 12.

The difference is that it was triggered _only_ by certain "dangerous" UV
bands, normal sunlight didn't trigger it to go darker.

Jeff

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2001\05\11@101325 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>a 250W high pressure lamp = 12500lm by the same calculation <g>). I may
>switch to 4 x 500W soon. Is there any chance of damage to the chip with
>such strong lights ?

       That's what I call a waste of energy and light!!! My eraser has ONE 10watt lamp. Why more???

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2001\05\11@125945 by Roman Black

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>
> >a 250W high pressure lamp = 12500lm by the same calculation <g>). I may
> >switch to 4 x 500W soon. Is there any chance of damage to the chip with
> >such strong lights ?
>
>


Why not buy the cheap and common G4T5 4w UV lamp,
and use the circuit I put up at:
http://www.ezy.net.au/~fastvid/tube4w.htm

It only needs 2 cheap capacitors, one diode and
a couple of resistors.

I am curious if anyone in a 120v AC mains country
can get it to work??
-Roman

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2001\05\11@194237 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>I am curious if anyone in a 120v AC mains country
>can get it to work??

       I'll try to put it working tomorrow. I don't have a 4W lamp, but a 10w sure I have :o)

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2001\05\12@104509 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
>waste of energy

The lamp also cures epoxy exposes photoresist and keeps coffee warm, not
to mention the large quantity of ions generated.

Peter

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2001\05\12@104517 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> Why not buy the cheap and common G4T5 4w UV lamp,
> and use the circuit I put up at:
> http://www.ezy.net.au/~fastvid/tube4w.htm

I already have one of those. It's a battery operated storm lamp with the
original tube replaced by a G4T5 (I think) and a normal starter and
ballast firing arrangement. It is too slow for me (20+minutes to erase at
1/2 inches from the tube, and 30 minutes once every 5 erases to wipe it
real good - otherwise gremlins show up sometimes). That's why I prefer the
monster lamp. Works every time.

Peter

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2001\05\12@230510 by Chris Cox

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Been following this thread for some time now and it's way OT for EE.
Admin needs to move to OT even though we're still talking physics of uv,
EPROM's and now, for my rant, skin.

Getting a sunburn and getting a tan can be shown to be the leading
causes of skin cancer. So you tell me what is coming through the clouds
that still causes burning... Now, EXACTLY which frequency band is
penetrating the clouds that require you to use a uv filter on your
camera to prevent "blue" pictures? Kodak publications lists the
frequencies absorbed by their various filters. If I could only find my
ancient filter book I could quit ranting and tell everybody, but alas,
buried in a moving box somewhere... People who love their tans and think
getting out in the sun is healthy are vain jackasses that deserve all
the melanoma they get. It has been shown that people in America
experience a major predominance of skin cancer to the left arm, and left
side of neck and face then any other part of the body.

Test time all you engineers: Why???

In Australia, guess which side of the body. Why???

DUH!!!!

A dermatologist with a tan is the rarest animal on planet Earth.

Chris Cox
Jeff DeMaagd wrote:
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\05\13@052549 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> Test time all you engineers: Why???

Easy - they are silly enough to not heed the burning feeling and slop on
some sun tan lotion when driving.
ie - it's NOT coz of the side of the car, it's coz they ignore the obvious
message, whatever iot happens to be. (Cars don't kill pople, gubns kill
people :-)).

RM

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