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'[EE]:: Vista madness (Long rant)'
2008\02\02@222621 by Matt Pobursky

flavicon
face
On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 09:49:10 +0800, Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> On Feb 3, 2008 1:53 AM, Bob Axtell <spam_OUTengineerTakeThisOuTspamcotse.net> wrote:
>> I am becoming more intrigued by the minute.....
>>
>> No offense is intended, but you seem to NEVER have the same problems we
>> have over here in the US. Are you living on the same planet I am? Where
>> do you buy YOUR $MS stuff?
>> Mine rarely works right, maybe we are not getting the right stuff.
>> Maybe Bill G likes you guys in Asia more than us in the US...? so he
>> ships better stuff?
>>
>>
> Windows comes with the desktop/notebook we (or the company) buy
> (typically Dell or HP).

And in fact, this is how Microsoft has built their defacto monopoly. Users
were not clamoring for the Vista OS, Microsoft pretty much forced the OEMs
to stop shipping XP and switch to Vista. The only one clamoring for Vista
was Wall Street analysts who kept reminding Microsoft that it's new OS was
over three years late. These are the kinds of things that really irritate
me.

Imagine if Vista OS was just released as a retail-only product and XP was
still the dominant OS shipped by the OEMs (i.e. they could choose which one
to install). How many copies of Vista do you think Microsoft would have
sold at retail?

{Quote hidden}

I am quite patient with software too. But when an OS decides it's smarter
than me and undoes changes I make to the system -- especially without
telling me or giving me the option to revert to *my* changes -- then that
is just too over the top. What right do they have to do that? That is
incredibly arrogant in my opinion and just plain wrong from a design
standpoint. Same goes for automatic updates that happen silently in the
background that break your system with no way to go back. One day your
system is broken, as far as you know you did nothing to break it. Too bad,
so sad. Microsoft has no accountability and will take no responsibility.

> Maybe it is also related to the usage pattern. I do not go to dubious
> websites. I do not install a software unless I really need it and I never
> want to install a shareware and seldom install any beta/demo software
> unless I have to. And my wife's usage pattern is really quite simple so
> she will not have major problems once she is educated not to do certain
> things.

Well I go to LOTS of "dubious" sites. I am careful about what software I
install though. I don't do P2P, especially for warez and music. However,
most of the best software I have is shareware. I believe the tiny software
providers have a much larger interest in turning out quality software than
the large companies do. They aren't nearly as interested in upgrade lock-
ins, holding your data hostage or onerous licensing agreements. Whenever
possible, I use shareware and make sure I pay the author(s) if I actually
find the software to be good and I use it.

Speaking of software from large companies... I am fighting a problem right
now thanks to one. I use Protel99SE for all my schematic and PCB design
work. A few months ago, I had a client want me to look at a PCB layout that
was done in China with PADS (Mentor Graphics). I wasn't going to drop ~$10K
for the PADS software package so I got a 30 day demo to look at the PCB
files. Installs OK although it didn't have an option where to install and
insisted on installing on drive C:, which I rarely use for anything but
system programs and tools. It also took over all the file extensions that
Protel uses, without asking. This also irritated me. A few months pass and
now I want to uninstall it. It seems to uninstall OK and at the end of the
process asks if I want to uninstall the Mentor Graphics install utilities,
to which I reply yes... says it's removing them all complete with progress
bar and file list but it leaves them all on my system! It also left a
boatload of crap in the registry including it's file associations. So now I
am traversing many, many registry keys trying to weed out all the debris it
left behind. Seriously bad form and I will *never* buy software from Mentor
Graphics.

Interestingly, I have had zero (yes, zero) malware, trojans or viruses in
the past 5 years. I can't even remember that last time I found anything the
least bit suspicious on one of my computers. Lest you think I lead a
sheltered computing life, that's not the case. I pretty much traverse the
internet at will.

How do I do it? Well it's nothing special. I have five computers here that
are online 24/7. They all run that "antique" OS Win2K, SP4. All of the un-
needed services are turned off (like auto Windows updates, Windows
Messenger and the like). They all have software firewalls (ZoneAlarm Pro)
and anti-virus (AVG) but the anti-virus is turned off on all of them. The
firewall is set to block all outbound internet access except for a handful
of trusted apps. All inbound packets not requested by me are also blocked
(interestingly, I get almost none anyway according to the firewall log so I
think this threat is way overblown). I scan my systems about once a month
(when I think about it) with Spybot and AVG but I've never turned up a
virus yet. While that all sounds risky I don't believe it is.

I think the real reason I don't see any "bad things" entering my system is
three fold:

1) I don't use Internet Explorer, in fact it is blocked from accessing the
internet on all my systems. It has to ask me for permission.

2) I don't use Outlook or Outlook Express. I use an email client that
neither uses IE's html engine to render html emails or is capable of
running *any* active scripts.

3) I pre-screen all my email with MailWasher Pro. Besides being able to
screen all my email from all my accounts in one place I get to see if there
are any suspicious attachments with any emails. If there are, the email
simply never gets off the email server and is deleted before it's ever
downloaded.

I also don't use Windows Media player much for online things which probably
also helps some.

I've cleaned up dozens of infected PCs and the vast majority of them have
been infected while browsing with IE or through email with Outlook or
Outlook Express. I setup my mother's own PC like my own and let her loose
and in three years of use has gotten no viruses or malware. She is about
the least computer savvy user on the planet. ;-)

I personally think the only security Microsoft really cares about it's it's
long term financial security, based on the decisions they have made with
their successive OS's and applications.

Sorry, but I had to let that all out after watching this thread for several
days...

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

2008\02\02@230338 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Thanks, Matt. I needed that.

I TRY, oh how I try, to NOT get into these Linux vs $MS arguments, cause
I know
James hates them. But my experience with Windows over the years has been
so bad.
Just lost work time dealing with cranky Windows has lost ME a large
fortune (I could
have afforded another wife or two, for the money I lost dealing with it).

Anyway, I couldn't have said it better. Thanks, Matt.

--Bob

Matt Pobursky wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\02\02@231516 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Feb 3, 2008 12:03 PM, Bob Axtell <engineerspamKILLspamcotse.net> wrote:
> Thanks, Matt. I needed that.
>
> I TRY, oh how I try, to NOT get into these Linux vs $MS arguments, cause
> I know James hates them. But my experience with Windows over the years has been
> so bad.
> Just lost work time dealing with cranky Windows has lost ME a large
> fortune (I could have afforded another wife or two, for the money I lost dealing with it).
>
> Anyway, I couldn't have said it better. Thanks, Matt.

Sorry but seriously have you done any real money-earning consultation work
with Linux or Mac OS X if you are dealing with PIC MCU?

As much as I like Linux, I can not imagine that I could survive the daily
work (electronics hardware/firmware) with a Linux PC. That is simply the
reality.

Xiaofan

2008\02\03@005351 by Dr Skip

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Well said. I do almost the very same thing and in 5 yrs I only found one, which
I intentionally downloaded to test my containment abilities, keeping snapshots
before and after to verify any final changes (BTW, was alerted to, found,
contained, analyzed and removed it fine - after all, if the protection doesn't
work, it won't throw an alert either, so I tested).

There is no excuse for the liberties larger companies take with one's machine.
Everything going on this new machine is open source and/or downloaded. There is
a respect they offer towards the user and the user's property in most cases.

My lost work hours this last month have exceeded all of last year's already on
XP due to 'working around' Vista 'features' and resetting settings for the nth
time. This hasn't been application issues, but in trying to reign Vista in and
make it work. (I still can't move data around my net with the Vista one...)

How's this for a client bill:

Prototype creation .................. 2 days
Copying your creation on Vista....... 3 days

Total billing.........................5 days





Matt Pobursky wrote:
> Sorry, but I had to let that all out after watching this thread for several
> days...
>
> Matt Pobursky
> Maximum Performance Systems
>

2008\02\03@042336 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
Dr Skip wrote:
> How's this for a client bill:
>
> Prototype creation .................. 2 days
> Copying your creation on Vista....... 3 days
>
> Total billing.........................5 days

Wow, the same happened to me :)

--
Ciao, Dario -- ADPM Synthesis sas -- http://www.adpm.tk

2008\02\03@053440 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Feb 3, 2008 1:53 PM, Dr Skip <.....drskipKILLspamspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
> My lost work hours this last month have exceeded all of last year's already on
> XP due to 'working around' Vista 'features' and resetting settings for the nth
> time. This hasn't been application issues, but in trying to reign Vista in and
> make it work. (I still can't move data around my net with the Vista one...)
>

I believe you are very much a "power user" for Windows. So I trust your
experiences with Vista. I think it is justified that so many business wait for
SP1/SP2 to deploy Windows Vista. In fact, the company still blocks IE7 for
Windows XP desktop. The standard desktop OS is still XP SP2.  And the
standard Office version is still Office XP (not Office 2003 or Office 2007).
On the other hand, the company is updating all the software for Vista
since there are customers who needs Vista.

By the way, you can always have a second computer with XP (or Linux if
it works for you) for the work you have problems with Vista. Just like what
Adam recommended in the other thread.

Xiaofan

2008\02\03@093920 by John Ferrell

face picon face
RE:  > By the way, you can always have a second computer with XP (or Linux
if
> it works for you) for the work you have problems with Vista.

Presumably XP will not always be with us.
My experience so far:
New Sony Vista Laptop    $500
Borland Delphi Pro            $500     No fix, total loss
BibleSoft 4                        $135    Upgrade to Ver 5
Piano Keyboard                $ 22    Upgrade

ANY program that uses Windows Help files is suspect so I expect a great
fallout as I try to use more old applications. Note that not only does
Delphi not work it also is not removable when installed and may corrupt the
registry.
I have used only Borland products for my personal programming so that is
likely not usable with Vista.
I have had two 98SE machines in place for particular legacy applications
along with two XPPro machines (one is backup) that do the heavy lifting. I
converted the backup machine back to Linux SUSE 10 (change the cables on the
HD) so I can investigate moving all Internet activity to Linux.

I am currently investigating Java for my personal programming language
because it is cross platform and readily available.

How about sharing your experience so far and your plans (short & long term)
for the future?

The situation may be a consultants dream come true! Lost of users are going
to need help to move to Vista and soon the move will not be optional...


John Ferrell    W8CCW
"Life is easier if you learn to plow
      around the stumps"
http://DixieNC.US

----- Original Message -----  


2008\02\03@210154 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Feb 3, 2008 10:42 PM, John Ferrell <EraseMEjohnferrellspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTearthlink.net> wrote:
> Presumably XP will not always be with us.
Yes and no. Yes you can use Windows XP for a long time. No XP support
will not be there for long.
>
> ANY program that uses Windows Help files is suspect so I expect a great
> fallout as I try to use more old applications.

Microsoft offers download to solve this problem.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/917607

> I have had two 98SE machines in place for particular legacy applications
> along with two XPPro machines (one is backup) that do the heavy lifting. I
> converted the backup machine back to Linux SUSE 10 (change the cables on the
> HD) so I can investigate moving all Internet activity to Linux.

So you are all covered.

> I am currently investigating Java for my personal programming language
> because it is cross platform and readily available.

I am not a programmer so I am not so sure here. Personally I feel
Java will remain in the enterprise arena and not suitable for personal
programming, that is especailly true if you want to use it for MCU
interfacing.

> How about sharing your experience so far and your plans (short & long term)
> for the future?
>
> The situation may be a consultants dream come true! Lost of users are going
> to need help to move to Vista and soon the move will not be optional...

As far as I think, I will think Windows (Vista and beyond) and Linux
will be the duo-poly in the future with Mac OS X remaining a niche.
Of course some alternative OS (BSDs and Open Solaris) will have
a very small percentage as well.

Third-party support of Linux will get better in quite some fields.
So Linux can be a viable alternative for quite some people. Windows
will remain the dominate OS (but no longer with 90% share).

I think Vista will be popular in year 2008 and be the main Windows
OS for the business user in 2008/2009 time frame.

As for my home computing, I will probably replace the XP desktop
with a Vista machine (maybe a notebook since we do not have the
luxury of owning a big house here in Singapore) in the future.
And it will again be dual-boot (Vista + Linux distros. I'd like to follow
the latest and the hence the "greatest". But take note I am not
doing serious work at home.

Xiaofan

2008\02\04@000546 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> On Feb 3, 2008 1:53 PM, Dr Skip <drskipspamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
>  
>> My lost work hours this last month have exceeded all of last year's already on
>> XP due to 'working around' Vista 'features' and resetting settings for the nth
>> time. This hasn't been application issues, but in trying to reign Vista in and
>> make it work. (I still can't move data around my net with the Vista one...)
>>
>>    
>
> I believe you are very much a "power user" for Windows. So I trust your
> experiences with Vista. I think it is justified that so many business wait for
> SP1/SP2 to deploy Windows Vista. In fact, the company still blocks IE7 for
> Windows XP desktop. The standard desktop OS is still XP SP2.  And the
> standard Office version is still Office XP (not Office 2003 or Office 2007).
> On the other hand, the company is updating all the software for Vista
> since there are customers who needs Vista.
>  
Would you tell us who they are? Why would anybody NEED vista?

--Bob A

2008\02\04@003725 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Feb 4, 2008 1:05 PM, Bob Axtell <@spam@engineerKILLspamspamcotse.net> wrote:
> > On the other hand, the company is updating all the software for Vista
> > since there are customers who needs Vista.
> >
> Would you tell us who they are? Why would anybody NEED vista?

It is not you need Vista or not. But when the customers start
to deploy Vista, the company has to provide Vista support.
Otherwise you lose the market share.

I can understand that many people got upset with Vista because
it breaks quite some traditional usages to get better security or
better stability. However, like it or not, Vista will be the dominate
OS soon.

Microchip is slow in Vista support but they now support Vista
32bit for most of the software/hardware. Microchip USB stack
V1.3 even supports Windows Vista 64 bit. But it will be quite
difficult to go to Vista 64 as for now.

If you do not like Vista, you can stay with Windows XP. Or
you can switch to Mac OS X and Linux. You have the choice
if you really want to. The major problem with them is third-party
software support. And third party support of Vista is getting
better and better now. Take note initial acceptance of XP is
also low.

If we trust the followed Neowin market share data, we can clearly
see that XP to Vista transition is on the way. Maybe it is not
up to the expectation of Microsoft but it is certainly the case.
And I believe that Mac OS X's share rise simply because now Macs
can run Windows. For those who still like Windows 2k and Win98,
the market share of both are certainly dying. And Linux still has
a long way to go to beat your perceived "nobody-will-need" Vista.

>From Neowin.
www.neowin.net/news/main/08/01/09/market-share-2007-mac-os-gains-315-vista-grabs-1048
Windows XP - 76.91%
Windows Vista - 10.48%
Mac OS - 7.30%
Windows 2000 - 2.66%
Windows 98 - 0.70%
Linux - 0.63%


Xiaofan

2008\02\04@013712 by Bob Blick

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> It is not you need Vista or not. But when the customers start
> to deploy Vista, the company has to provide Vista support.
> Otherwise you lose the market share.

I read today that Linux has better compatibility with Windows games than
Vista:
http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/02/0236200

Most companies are intentionally delaying adopting Vista because they
expect stuff not to work. Especially their essential and favorite stuff.

You are being very absolute about this, when there is very little reason
for most companies to support Vista. Nobody expects software to work
correctly with Vista, so if it doesn't, Vista is blamed, not you.

There's more demand for Microsoft to provide better backward
compatibility for legacy apps.

And if Microsoft got better at virtualization, like we all expected
after their acquisition of VirtualPC, then they could provide support
for legacy apps.

But I believe they didn't think they needed to, and are now scrambling
to do something, anything, to make customers use Vista.

Having to extend XP sales for an extra year woke them up, bigtime.

They're in pain right now, the pain that comes with the realization that
they are not wanted. Oops, Plan "A" didn't work, so Plan "B" is tighter
hold on customers.

Some people still "need" them, and they're trying very hard to lock
people in(removal of 97/XP file formats from the newest Office after the
latest updates comes to mind), but they're in trouble.

But having the attitude "Vista's inevitable, embrace it and love it" is
unnecessary. Vista is the new WinME, Microsofts knows it, no need for
you to be their apologist.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

2008\02\04@040956 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Feb 4, 2008 2:37 PM, Bob Blick <KILLspambbblickKILLspamspamsbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > It is not you need Vista or not. But when the customers start
> > to deploy Vista, the company has to provide Vista support.
> > Otherwise you lose the market share.
>
> I read today that Linux has better compatibility with Windows games than
> Vista:
> http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/02/0236200

Does any real gamer believe this? I admit I am not a gamer.

>
> Having to extend XP sales for an extra year woke them up, bigtime.

True.

> They're in pain right now, the pain that comes with the realization that
> they are not wanted. Oops, Plan "A" didn't work, so Plan "B" is tighter
> hold on customers.

Not so sure. Microsoft is still doing well.

> Some people still "need" them, and they're trying very hard to lock
> people in(removal of 97/XP file formats from the newest Office after the
> latest updates comes to mind), but they're in trouble.

I tend to believe Office 2003/2003 are not necessary for most business.
Office 2000/XP are good enough. And I think OpenOffice is good
enough for many people.

> But having the attitude "Vista's inevitable, embrace it and love it" is
> unnecessary. Vista is the new WinME, Microsoft knows it, no need for
> you to be their apologist.

Let's wait and see if it is a Windows Me or not. Take note Windows
Me is not targeting the business user at all. It is a failure but its effect
is pretty limited. If Windows Vista fails, that is a big deal for Microsoft.
And I think it will be really a good thing so that more third party software
will be available for Mac OS X and Linux and we will have more choices.
However I just do not think it is the case.

Simple blaming Microsoft all everything will not make the
software world any better.

I am not exactly know what an apologist means.

Xiaofan

2008\02\04@094432 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> On Feb 4, 2008 1:05 PM, Bob Axtell <RemoveMEengineerTakeThisOuTspamcotse.net> wrote:
>  
>>> On the other hand, the company is updating all the software for Vista
>>> since there are customers who needs Vista.
>>>
>>>      
>> Would you tell us who they are? Why would anybody NEED vista?
>>    
>
> It is not you need Vista or not. But when the customers start
> to deploy Vista, the company has to provide Vista support.
> Otherwise you lose the market share.
>  

Hmm. I simply can't understand this kind of circular thinking.

Everybody I know who bought a Vista to try it will NOT buy another one.
And they
will have their IT staff install a new XP installation as soon as it is
possible to do so.

I believe that Microsoft has ripped their pants on this one.

--Bob A
{Quote hidden}

2008\02\04@103530 by Bob Blick

face picon face

--- Xiaofan Chen <spamBeGonexiaofancspamBeGonespamgmail.com> wrote:

>
> Not so sure. Microsoft is still doing well.
>

Only if "well" means simultaneously losing market
share, getting bad press because of the thought of
buying Yahoo, and everyone on the street hating Vista.

{Quote hidden}

You must not know about the recent update. The new
version of Office, after updating, will no longer open
documents saved in earlier versions. For "security"
reasons. So you must install Open Office to open old
Microsoft documents.

> Simple blaming Microsoft all everything will not
> make the
> software world any better.
>
> I am not exactly know what an apologist means.

Meaning you are not a Microsoft spokesman so it is
hard to understand why you are defending them against
all attacks - we have seen no evidence that they have
released a capable, tested product that customers want
to buy.

On the other hand, I am looking forward to the end of
April, when Ubuntu 8.04 LTS is released :)

Cheerful regards,

Bob

2008\02\04@113152 by Dr Skip

picon face

Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> By the way, you can always have a second computer with XP (or Linux if
> it works for you) for the work you have problems with Vista. Just like what
> Adam recommended in the other thread.
>
> Xiaofan

While that works in a pinch, it isn't a long term solution. The new machine is
not only money spent that should be used and not shelved (it wasn't cheap), but
the horsepower and 17 inch screen are WAY better than the old XP. In fact, I
find it difficult to adjust to the old, tiny screen and waiting for it to churn
on my requests. There was a reason I got this laptop after all... Going to the
older one for a singular compatibility problem is one thing, but these issues
are everyday operational ones.

I've made inquiries about 'upgrading' it to XP, but Acer doesn't seem to have
the same level of support as HP or such. We'll see. It would really burn me to
have to BUY XP after allowing Microsoft to reap the income off of this one's
Vista as well.

Hmmm, maybe THAT's the secret plan... ;) Force-feed everyone a piece of trash
OS and charge for it, then sell them the old one to replace it. Double your
revenue while making investors think you're still doing development! BWAAAHAHAHA!

2008\02\04@115040 by Bob Blick

face picon face
--- Xiaofan Chen <TakeThisOuTxiaofancEraseMEspamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
> > I read today that Linux has better compatibility
> with Windows games than
> > Vista:
games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/02/0236200
>
> Does any real gamer believe this? I admit I am not a
> gamer.

Do I believe Vista has bad game compatibility? Sure,
it sounds quite reasonable. And I know Windows games
can run on Linux. Here's someone who has tried it and
says he has better compatibility on Linux than Vista,
although best compatibility on XP. Again, sounds
reasonable.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

2008\02\04@134322 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> I've made inquiries about 'upgrading' it to XP, but Acer
> doesn't seem to have
> the same level of support as HP or such. We'll see. It
> would really burn me to
> have to BUY XP after allowing Microsoft to reap the income
> off of this one's
> Vista as well.

> Hmmm, maybe THAT's the secret plan... ;) Force-feed
> everyone a piece of trash
> OS and charge for it, then sell them the old one to
> replace it. Double your
> revenue while making investors think you're still doing
> development! BWAAAHAHAHA!

It's worked for them before.

FWIW - I have a signed letter from a high level Microsoft
rep in this country saying that if you buy a uSoft product
then you may for free use any older version. I keep it
'somewhere' more for fun than expectation that it would hold
water. I suspect too (and seem to recall) that there are M$
EULAs that say just the opposite.


   Russell

2008\02\04@142831 by peter green

flavicon
face

> FWIW - I have a signed letter from a high level Microsoft
> rep in this country saying that if you buy a uSoft product
> then you may for free use any older version. I keep it
> 'somewhere' more for fun than expectation that it would hold
> water. I suspect too (and seem to recall) that there are M$
> EULAs that say just the opposite.
>
>  
IIRC according to the actual licenses that is true for most volume
licenses but not most retail licenses.

If you have OEM vista buisness  or ultimate then iirc that comes with
downgrade rights to XP pro. If you have a lower edition but have access
to purchase under a volume license scheme then iirc upgrading under that
will also get you downgrade rights. Retail and retail upgrade copies
unfortunately don't come with downgrade rights.

2008\02\04@144214 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 10:01 +0800, Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> On Feb 3, 2008 10:42 PM, John Ferrell <RemoveMEjohnferrellspamTakeThisOuTearthlink.net> wrote:
> > Presumably XP will not always be with us.
> Yes and no. Yes you can use Windows XP for a long time. No XP support
> will not be there for long.

Hehe, who cares? Since when has MS ever really "supported" an OS? Ever
try calling MS for support? (prepare to open your wallet)

Unless you mean security updates, which MS historically continues to
provide long after normal "support" ends.

TTYL

2008\02\04@151202 by peter green

flavicon
face

> Hehe, who cares? Since when has MS ever really "supported" an OS? Ever
> try calling MS for support? (prepare to open your wallet)
>
>  
IIRC if you buy retail and the product is still in mainstream support
you get a few free support incidents. If you buy OEM then the OEM is
supposed to support you and they in turn can get support from MS if
nessacery.

I think MSDN comes with quite a bit of free support too.

> Unless you mean security updates, which MS historically continues to
> provide long after normal "support" ends.
>  
MS has two support periods for most buisness orientated products
(including windows). During mainstream support (which ends for XP soon)
they will still consider adding new features and all hotfixes are free.
During extended support they won't consider new features (with the odd
exception such as the recent backport of KMDF to win2K)and you have to
pay $$$ for any new non security hotfixes (e.g. the recent DST change
hotfix).

2008\02\04@152443 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Apptech wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Don't lose it, Russell.

--Bob A

2008\02\04@204422 by Xiaofan Chen

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On Feb 4, 2008 11:35 PM, Bob Blick <bbblickEraseMEspam.....sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > I tend to believe Office 2003/2003 are not necessary
> > for most business.
> > Office 2000/XP are good enough. And I think
> > OpenOffice is good enough for many people.
>
> You must not know about the recent update. The new
> version of Office, after updating, will no longer open
> documents saved in earlier versions. For "security"
> reasons. So you must install Open Office to open old
> Microsoft documents.

Yes I know that. But there are solutions (a bit difficult
though). And those removed are really old. On the
other hand, Microsoft does provide an add-on for the
old version of Office to open Office 2007 files.

I have different opinions about Windows updates and
Office Updates. To me Windows updates are necessary
because of that is the base OS and the support of the base
OS is quite important for the end user. For me
Office updates are mostly not necessary.

And I believe alternative Office packages (like Open
Office and others) will take over some market shares
faster than alternative OS. A computer needs an
OS but many computers need a full-blown Office
packages. And for full-blown Office packages,
Open Office is really quite capable. With bigger
companies throwing support of it, it will be quite a
viable alternatives.

{Quote hidden}

I think it is just a different perception. I have a tolerant view
towards software since I've seen many worse software
than Microsoft's.

I hope more and more alternatives (OS and application)
are available. By blaiming Microsoft for everything will
not make the alternatives better. One has to use it,
learn the strong point of Microsoft (OS, Office and development
studios, etc) and make the alternatives better.

You can not beat Microsoft by blaiming Microsoft.

> On the other hand, I am looking forward to the end of
> April, when Ubuntu 8.04 LTS is released :)
>

Me too. I like 6.06 LTS and I do not quite like 7.10.
Hopefully 8.04LTS (even if it is delayed to 8.06LTS)
will be even better than 6.06LTS.

Xiaofan

2008\02\04@204658 by Xiaofan Chen

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On Feb 5, 2008 4:11 AM, peter green <EraseMEplugwashspamp10link.net> wrote:
>
> > Hehe, who cares? Since when has MS ever really "supported" an OS? Ever
> > try calling MS for support? (prepare to open your wallet)
>
> > Unless you mean security updates, which MS historically continues to
> > provide long after normal "support" ends.
> >
> MS has two support periods for most buisness orientated products
> (including windows). During mainstream support (which ends for XP soon)
> they will still consider adding new features and all hotfixes are free.
> During extended support they won't consider new features (with the odd
> exception such as the recent backport of KMDF to win2K)and you have to
> pay $$$ for any new non security hotfixes (e.g. the recent DST change
> hotfix).
>

I think you are really well informed and I admire your depth of
knowledge.

Xiaofan


'[EE]:: Vista madness (Long rant)'
2008\03\06@204240 by Vitaliy
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peter green wrote:
>> FWIW - I have a signed letter from a high level Microsoft
>> rep in this country saying that if you buy a uSoft product
>> then you may for free use any older version. I keep it
>> 'somewhere' more for fun than expectation that it would hold
>> water. I suspect too (and seem to recall) that there are M$
>> EULAs that say just the opposite.
>>
>>
> IIRC according to the actual licenses that is true for most volume
> licenses but not most retail licenses.
>
> If you have OEM vista buisness  or ultimate then iirc that comes with
> downgrade rights to XP pro. If you have a lower edition but have access
> to purchase under a volume license scheme then iirc upgrading under that
> will also get you downgrade rights. Retail and retail upgrade copies
> unfortunately don't come with downgrade rights.


After a couple of bad experiences with Vista, we now have only one machine
at the office that runs it. In fact, it's a dual boot machine (XP/Vista),
and testing is the only reason we kept Vista on it. Older (but definitely
not "old") software not working on Vista is the biggest problem for us.

We had three Vista machines that we purchased from Dell, so we got XP CDs
from Dell support, and reinstalled XP on all three. Since that time, we only
purchase XP machines -- fortunately, Dell continues to offer the choice of
OS.

Vitaliy

2008\03\07@005236 by Jake Anderson

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>
>
> After a couple of bad experiences with Vista, we now have only one machine
> at the office that runs it. In fact, it's a dual boot machine (XP/Vista),
> and testing is the only reason we kept Vista on it. Older (but definitely
> not "old") software not working on Vista is the biggest problem for us.
>
> We had three Vista machines that we purchased from Dell, so we got XP CDs
> from Dell support, and reinstalled XP on all three. Since that time, we only
> purchase XP machines -- fortunately, Dell continues to offer the choice of
> OS.
>
> Vitaliy
>  
I've found "upgrading" to vista is about as hard as moving to Ubuntu.
One however leaves you warm and fuzzy, the other leaves you hot with
rage ;->

2008\03\07@055746 by Alan B. Pearce

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>We had three Vista machines that we purchased from Dell, so we got XP
>CDs from Dell support, and reinstalled XP on all three. Since that time,
>we only purchase XP machines -- fortunately, Dell continues to offer
>the choice of OS.

This will only last until June or July - Microsoft will stop all XP sales
then, they were going to stop it last January.

2008\03\07@084414 by Richard Benfield

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I know it's popular to slate Microsoft  But  they do make old software
available via there downgrade program,
this means any oem can get older versions of the software. I needed to
get VB6 for a project, all I had to do was
buy a version of VS through an authorised reseller and buy 4 other
items (mouse licences) and then apply for a downgrade.

Just put windows 2000 into google shopping and there are places still
selling it.

Its not in Microsoft's or the end users interest to keep selling old
versions of software.

Generally vista works,

just don't change the  Temp environmental variable unless you make ALL
the changes necessary !! this did catch me out

when you install software especially old software, right click and run
as administrator.

We've only had one piece of software that wouldn't work and that was
understandable as it uses Real time extensions.
That would test for vista and block the installation.

Richard

Alan B. Pearce wrote:
>> We had three Vista machines that we purchased from Dell, so we got XP
>> CDs from Dell support, and reinstalled XP on all three. Since that time,
>> we only purchase XP machines -- fortunately, Dell continues to offer
>> the choice of OS.
>>    
>
> This will only last until June or July - Microsoft will stop all XP sales
> then, they were going to stop it last January.
>
>  

2008\03\07@110830 by William \Chops\ Westfield

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On Mar 7, 2008, at 2:57 AM, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

> Microsoft will stop all XP sales

And after that, I believe it's within the XP license agreement
that they can "turn off" operation of current XP licenses. :-(

BillW

2008\03\07@145254 by Dr Skip

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I've not heard of that, and even if it were 10 yrs old, it would be a PR
nightmare for them, not that Balmer wouldn't want to try it...

The only connection they have is through updates, which they will discontinue
for unsupported OSes, so how would they accomplish this turn-off? Day n-1 they
are supporting XP and the updates are legitimate and non-malicious. Day n they
stop support and you quit dialing them up. How do they turn you off on day n+1?

Staying reasonably behind on installing (but maybe just downloading) updates as
a lot of people do would create a big noise as people's systems started
stopping and alert the rest of us. Then there would be some action taken...


William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
> On Mar 7, 2008, at 2:57 AM, Alan B. Pearce wrote:
>
>
> And after that, I believe it's within the XP license agreement
> that they can "turn off" operation of current XP licenses. :-(
>
> BillW
>

2008\03\07@152522 by Richard Benfield

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face
Sounds like FUD do you have any links to support this?

William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
> On Mar 7, 2008, at 2:57 AM, Alan B. Pearce wrote:
>
>  
>> Microsoft will stop all XP sales
>>    
>
> And after that, I believe it's within the XP license agreement
> that they can "turn off" operation of current XP licenses. :-(
>
> BillW
>
>  

2008\03\07@203227 by Apptech

face
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As with top posting it's not possible to work out what a
reply is about I'll address both possibilities separately.

>>> Microsoft will stop all XP sales

Current sales end date is June 2008.

   http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/28/microsoft-extends-sales-of-windows-xp-till-june-2008/

>> And after that, I believe it's within the XP license
>> agreement
>> that they can "turn off" operation of current XP
>> licenses. :-(

> Sounds like FUD do you have any links to support this?

No link would prove this as well as reading your own EULA.
I don't know if it is true and IMHO there is about zero
chance of them actually doing this.
I do know that EULA provision vary by region and target
group and some can be far more draconian than others. Long
ago I took the effort to compare certain key points in EULAS
for a wide range of regions to check how our conditions
compared to other countriy's. I found that ours (NZ) were
the most restrictive of any in that example at that time.
(Having a booklet with all of them in it made this a far
easier exercise than it would otherwise have been :-) ).

BUT they have the power of life and death in their hands for
any system which is internet connected. Having updates
turned on makes the death part easier but that's not
essential. Internet connected Windows is at Microsoft's
mercy in all but the utterly most secure cases, and possibly
then. Certainly, on my systems updates occasionally cripple
systems to various extents for various periods. If you let
them they can play fast and loose with your system and,
whether by intent or not, they do.

But I don't think there's any real chance of them stopping
you using the XP that you (think that you) have "bought".


       Russell

2008\03\19@031601 by Nate Duehr

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On Mar 7, 2008, at 1:24 PM, Richard Benfield wrote:
> Sounds like FUD do you have any links to support this?
>
> William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
>> On Mar 7, 2008, at 2:57 AM, Alan B. Pearce wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Microsoft will stop all XP sales
>>>
>>
>> And after that, I believe it's within the XP license agreement
>> that they can "turn off" operation of current XP licenses. :-(
>>
>> BillW
>>


Personally, I think this would set the computing world forward about  
ten years.

Have at it... turn 'em all off!

The computing world would go back to thinking about how best to solve  
problems with limited resources, the only time the software industry  
ever was really interesting.

--
Nate Duehr
RemoveMEnateEraseMEspamEraseMEnatetech.com



2008\03\19@034522 by Dario Greggio

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Nate Duehr wrote:

> The computing world would go back to thinking about how best to solve  
> problems with limited resources, the only time the software industry  
> ever was really interesting.

Agreed Nate: and, if you just change platform, it *is* still
interesting... consider running Windows CE on a PIC18 :)

--
Ciao, Dario

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