Post by thread:[EE]:: Peak Soil - Why cellulosicethanol,biofuels

> I'd say that it's a question of cutting the b**s**t and facing the > historical > facts and working hard engineering and chemistry-wise towards > results. Also > delete the idea of 'net energy negative' permanently. I feel sick > every time I > read it, no matter where. I am a member of a species that ekes out > an existence > from the unevenness of the energy flow deposed by the sun onto this > planet, on > its way towards becoming an increase in entropy. There is no way to > make that > flow 'positive', either net or gross. Therefore 'net energy > negative' > is an attribute that goes for ALL uses of energy, and that includes > breathing. > Funny that for all the times I have read the words 'net energy > negative' Not meaning to be rude, but did you read, or even skim the article. They cover the subject rather more 'holistically' than just looking at energy balance for the conversion process, and the points raised seem worth consideraing. Also, note that the paper is specifically referreing to cellulose processing - people wanting to use hay/straw/stubble. They explain quite cogently why this appears to be a bad idea. > I cannot remember one single instance where someone said 'net enegry > positive'. I say it or imply it (actually net *energy* positive :-) ) every time I mention Lunar Helium 3 :-). Even though (as you note) its actually star ash and so energy negative overall as well :-) :-) :-). Russell

> I say it or imply it (actually net *energy* positive :-) ) every time > I mention Lunar Helium 3 :-). > Even though (as you note) its actually star ash and so energy negative > overall as well :-) :-) :-). Everything is energy negative overall, except possibly the big bang, and that does seem to be an interesting observation.

Russell McMahon wrote: >> I cannot remember one single instance where someone said 'net enegry >> positive'. > > I say it or imply it (actually net *energy* positive :-) ) It seems to me that whenever that is said (negative or positive), the frame of reference needs to be mentioned... time, space, ecosystem, 3rd quarter balance sheet, whatever. Gerhard