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'[EE]:: Determining material characteristics non in'
2007\07\26@062649 by Russell McMahon

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I want to completely non invasively determine the characteristics of a
metal surface.
(The nozzle, chamber and injector surfaces of a 50 year old "Corporal"
liquid fuel rocket motor).
The aim is to produce a convincing report on the best way to conserve
the equipment without actually "interfering" with it in any way.

I'd like to do this as cheaply and easily and quickly as possible (of
course)(choose any 3).

Historical documents suggest that the material is Chromium plated mild
steel but it may be a stainless steel and may be something else.

The nozzle has been painted at date unknown with paint or other paint
like substance with surface-preparation unknown.

I need to know as best I may what each of the components is made of.
Any investigation *** MUST *** not only be wholly non-invasive but
must be subsequently be able to be seen by the technically relatively
uniformed to be non invasive. eg not only must I not scratch the paint
work or metal surfaces but there must be no suspicion that that is
what I really did. The reality is that it would almost certainly not
matter if I did and that that may turn out to be a sensible and most
effective method to use **** BUT **** it is not an option.

The equipment concerned is on loan from "The Smithsonian". I suspect
they wouldn't care too too much if sensible tests were made BUT for
local reasons, this is not an option.

The injector plate is unpainted and has a shiny "chrome" finish. (And
it is almost certainly chromium plated).

Now, I KNOW that people will now suggest invasive methods, but any
comments on non-invasive methods would be welcome.

I can look elsewhere and I have some ideas but there are often OTS /
OTW / well,-fancy-that answers from this list, so ... .

- I intend to try examining the effect on the inductance of a coil
placed with a pole face against the surfaces. Various frequencies may
produce differing results but I'm unlikely to get that fancy. (eg at
high enough frequencies the skin effect would be confined to the very
surface layer and a thin chromium layer may have more effect than at
low frequencies.)

- Use of a permanent magnet SHOULD rapidly allow a mild steel /
stainless steel test. (Some stainless steels do exhibit ferro-magnetic
properties but the ones possibly used here probably don't).

- Conduction of a heat pulse may help. Maybe not on the painted
surfaces. (An excellent way of differentiating between diamond and
cubic zirconium).


           Russell



2007\07\26@093026 by Mike Hord

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I assume partial disassembly (even completely non-destructive)
is out, eliminating investagtions of specific gravity of materials?

How about using a fairly highly accurate light spectrometer to
measure reflected sunlight?  The spectrum of sunlight is well
understood, so a really accurate spectrometer will tell you what
is reflected and what is absorbed, which gives a good idea of
composition (maybe).

I'd like to know more about this whole project. I believe the
Corporal was one of the rockets developed by the Army while
my grandfather (who was no doubt one of the earliest "steely-eyed
missile men") was serving at the Redstone Arsenal in Alabama.

Family lore suggests the Nike Hercules was his rocket, though.

Mike H.

On 7/26/07, Russell McMahon <spam_OUTapptechTakeThisOuTspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
> I want to completely non invasively determine the characteristics of a
> metal surface.
> (The nozzle, chamber and injector surfaces of a 50 year old "Corporal"
> liquid fuel rocket motor).
> The aim is to produce a convincing report on the best way to conserve
> the equipment without actually "interfering" with it in any way.

2007\07\26@104251 by Russell McMahon

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>I assume partial disassembly (even completely non-destructive)
> is out, eliminating investagtions of specific gravity of materials?

Yes.

> How about using a fairly highly accurate light spectrometer to
> measure reflected sunlight?  The spectrum of sunlight is well
> understood, so a really accurate spectrometer will tell you what
> is reflected and what is absorbed, which gives a good idea of
> composition (maybe).

Good idea. Won't work for painted nozzle but injector plate is
unpainted. HOWEVER it is also apparently chromium plated so the base
metal will be hidden. (The definitely chrome plated the mild steel
versions. I don't know about the stainless steel versiuons.


> I'd like to know more about this whole project. I believe the
> Corporal was one of the rockets developed by the Army while
> my grandfather (who was no doubt one of the earliest "steely-eyed
> missile men") was serving at the Redstone Arsenal in Alabama.

It was a Redstone arsenal development.

Here's their historical products page

                   http://www.redstone.army.mil/history/pdf/

That will destroy a rocket man's life for days :-)

> Family lore suggests the Nike Hercules was his rocket, though.

Nike Ajax is listed.


       Russell

Redstone Arsenal list:

Army Ordnance Satellite Program
CHAPARRAL/FAAR
CORPORAL VOL I & II
Field Army Ballistic Missile Defense System Project
HONEST JOHN
Improved HONEST JOHN
JUPITER
LACROSSE
LOKI
MAULER
NIKE AJAX
REDEYE
REDSTONE
SERGEANT
SHILLELAGH
TOW


2007\07\26@114105 by Goflo

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---- Russell McMahon <.....apptechKILLspamspam@spam@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> I want to completely non invasively determine the characteristics of a
> metal surface...

X-ray or neutron diffraction analysis come to mind.

Jack

2007\07\26@115236 by Chris Smolinski

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>---- Russell McMahon <apptechspamKILLspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
>>  I want to completely non invasively determine the characteristics of a
>  > metal surface...

Define characteristics? If you mean composition, x-ray fluorescence would work.

--

---
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com

2007\07\26@124604 by iSporodius

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Russell

       X-ray florescence is one such non destructive method. High energy  
(100kev or greater) X-rays are directed toward
the material resulting in the excitation of K-shell electrons by  
photoelectric effect. The characteristic K shell energies are recorded
by X-ray spectroscopy. Works best (more sensitive) on high Z elements.

Pete

On Jul 26, 2007, at 3:26 AM, Russell McMahon wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2007\07\26@172129 by Sean Breheny

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On 7/26/07, Russell McMahon <.....apptechKILLspamspam.....paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
> > Family lore suggests the Nike Hercules was his rocket, though.
>
> Nike Ajax is listed.

They have a really cool video about the development of the Nike Hercules:

http://www.redstone.army.mil/history/nikesite/nikeherc.html

Sean

2007\07\26@213005 by Rich

picon face
Another method is Energy Dispersive X-ray Diffraction Analysis.  Most
universities can support it and the larger multinational companies like
Xerox can support it.

{Original Message removed}

2007\07\27@140601 by Barry Gershenfeld

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How about the FTGWMIAPHP method?  Find The Guy Who Made It And Possibly His
Paperwork.

Oh well, I tried.   Would qualify for all three, though.


>> I'd like to do this as cheaply and easily and quickly as possible (of
> >> course)(choose any 3).

2007\07\28@052144 by Russell McMahon

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> How about the FTGWMIAPHP method?  Find The Guy Who Made It And
> Possibly His
> Paperwork.

> Oh well, I tried.   Would qualify for all three, though.

I did that :-).
The original link I posted had about 600 pages on the Corporal.
Towards the end of the second one they described the engine
construction and development history and give a cross section diagram.
BUT there were 3 engines mentioned. While they SAY that they never got
the 3rd into production it's always possible that the lessons learned
on #3 got used on later production versions. So, while I think the
rocket here is a #2 engine with mild steel all through, it's possible
that it has stainless or even something else in places. I really want
to get it right as thr watchdogs are being very proper about how
things are done and I want to be able to show that I know as much as
possible about what they have. I already know far more than they do,
but more is always useful.


       Russell

> >> I'd like to do this as cheaply and easily and quickly as possible
> >> (of
>> >> course)(choose any 3).



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