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PICList Thread
'[EE]:: Datasheet frustration'
2010\07\06@230530 by RussellMc

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Oli Glaser" <spam_OUToli.glaserTakeThisOuTspamtalktalk.net>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 01:34:34 +0100

Subject: [EE] Datasheet frustration

I'm used to datasheets not giving enough info and getting the odd thing
wrong, but I was wondering if I'm missing something with this one.
Basically if you look at the PCB guide at bottom left, I'm wondering how
they can give exact measurements to the *back* of the panel the XLR socket
is attached to (I know it doesn't specifically say it it the panel, but I
have seen other sheets from neutrik where it is labeled)

Doesn't it depend on how thick the panel material is? Surely it would be
better to give measurements from the front of the panel instead so you have
a fixed point of reference? (as it is always in the same place in relation
to the socket)

The panel would be just behind the third vertical line from the right in the
top middle diagram, so if that bit is roughly the same width as the front
protrusion, then it will be 19 - 2.7 = 16.3mm from the back, but it says
17.78 on the bottom left diagram, which is not even accounting for panel
thickness??

If anyone can see where I'm going wrong here, or whether they may have
messed it up, I would really appreciate it as I can't simply measure a real
one due to there being a 3 week wait on stock, and I have to get the boards
designed now. I know I can just do rough calculations but and get near, but
I would like to be precise if possible.

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2010\07\06@232806 by Oli Glaser

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Thanks Russell,

I have attached the relevant "bottom left" PCB diagram I mentioned, and the
"top middle" is the large thumbnail on Russells post.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "RussellMc" <apptechnzspamKILLspamgmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 4:04 AM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistKILLspamspam.....mit.edu>
Subject: [EE]:: Datasheet frustration

{Quote hidden}

> --

2010\07\06@233529 by Oli Glaser

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Posted again with both relevant diagrams attached so people can be bothered
with it all :-)
(hopefully will get through at 27K)

I'm used to datasheets not giving enough info and getting the odd thing
wrong, but I was wondering if I'm missing something with this one.
Basically if you look at the PCB guide at bottom left, I'm wondering how
they can give exact measurements to the *back* of the panel the XLR socket
is attached to (I know it doesn't specifically say it it the panel, but I
have seen other sheets from neutrik where it is labeled)

Doesn't it depend on how thick the panel material is? Surely it would be
better to give measurements from the front of the panel instead so you have
a fixed point of reference? (as it is always in the same place in relation
to the socket)

The panel would be just behind the third vertical line from the right in the
top middle diagram, so if that bit is roughly the same width as the front
protrusion, then it will be 19 - 2.7 = 16.3mm from the back, but it says
17.78 on the bottom left diagram, which is not even accounting for panel
thickness??

If anyone can see where I'm going wrong here, or whether they may have
messed it up, I would really appreciate it as I can't simply measure a real
one due to there being a 3 week wait on stock, and I have to get the boards
designed now. I know I can just do rough calculations but and get near, but
I would like to be precise if possible.



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2010\07\06@234142 by David Duffy (AVD)

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On 7/07/2010 1:34 PM, Oli Glaser wrote:
> I'm used to datasheets not giving enough info and getting the odd thing
> wrong, but I was wondering if I'm missing something with this one.
> Basically if you look at the PCB guide at bottom left, I'm wondering how
> they can give exact measurements to the *back* of the panel the XLR
> socket
> is attached to (I know it doesn't specifically say it it the panel, but I
> have seen other sheets from neutrik where it is labeled)

The 2.7mm part is what sticks through the panel.  The 19mm is from the
rear of the panel to the rear of the connector.
David...

--
___________________________________________
David Duffy        Audio Visual Devices P/L
Unit 8, 10 Hook St, Capalaba 4157 Australia
Ph: +61 7 38235717      Fax: +61 7 38234717
Our Web Site: http://www.audiovisualdevices.com.au
___________________________________________

2010\07\07@000324 by Oli Glaser

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From: "David Duffy (AVD)" <@spam@davidKILLspamspamaudiovisualdevices.com.au>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 4:41 AM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <KILLspampiclistKILLspamspammit.edu>
Subject: Re: [EE]:: Datasheet frustration

{Quote hidden}

I'm not so sure, as I have some other neutrik connectors that have two
"levels" of 2.7 and 2.3mm on the *outside* of the panel - essentially a
square surround with a round part protruding.
I see how it works if only the round part sticks through and the screw part
goes behind the panel, but the others don't do it like this (in fact I can't
remember seeing an XLR that does it like that) and their datasheet is the
same, with measurements taken from rear of panel, and the screw parts on the
front.


2010\07\07@001623 by David Duffy (AVD)

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On 7/07/2010 2:02 PM, Oli Glaser wrote:
> I see how it works if only the round part sticks through and the screw
> part
> goes behind the panel, but the others don't do it like this (in fact I can't
> remember seeing an XLR that does it like that) and their datasheet is the
> same, with measurements taken from rear of panel, and the screw parts on the
> front.
>    

All the ones we use mount from behind, with the round section protruding
through the panel hole.  The screws go through the panel from the front
and screw into the XLR body.
David...

--
___________________________________________
David Duffy        Audio Visual Devices P/L
Unit 8, 10 Hook St, Capalaba 4157 Australia
Ph: +61 7 38235717      Fax: +61 7 38234717
Our Web Site: http://www.audiovisualdevices.com.au
___________________________________________

2010\07\07@004224 by Oli Glaser

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--------------------------------------------------
From: "David Duffy (AVD)" <RemoveMEdavidTakeThisOuTspamaudiovisualdevices.com.au>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 5:16 AM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <spamBeGonepiclistspamBeGonespammit.edu>
Subject: Re: [EE]:: Datasheet frustration

{Quote hidden}

Fair enough then - what kind are they? Are they Switchcraft?
The ones I have used recently certainly don't (unless I'm hugely mistaken as
I have a couple of pieces of equipment that mount similar connectors on the
front too) but it's possible this one does - although the question is still
valid for the one I used before (attached)
I've attached the relevant bits of the datasheet for the one I have used
recently which almost certainly is intended to mount on the front - it has a
release catch which would be hard to push otherwise, and has the Neutrik
logo stamped on the surround part too.


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2010\07\07@022928 by David Duffy (AVD)

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On 7/07/2010 2:41 PM, Oli Glaser wrote:
{Quote hidden}

The ones we normally use are Neutrik and Alcatel.  One of my guys fitted
an RJ45 (XLR body) to a plastic box only yesterday with no problem.  I
would guess the box wall is 2.5mm thick.

I think you'll find that the release push allows for panel thicknesses
of up to a few mm.  Obviously the thinner the better though.
David...

--
___________________________________________
David Duffy        Audio Visual Devices P/L
Unit 8, 10 Hook St, Capalaba 4157 Australia
Ph: +61 7 38235717      Fax: +61 7 38234717
Our Web Site: http://www.audiovisualdevices.com.au
___________________________________________

2010\07\07@025500 by Oli Glaser

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From: "David Duffy (AVD)" <TakeThisOuTdavidEraseMEspamspam_OUTaudiovisualdevices.com.au>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 7:29 AM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <RemoveMEpiclistspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu>
Subject: Re: [EE]:: Datasheet frustration

{Quote hidden}

Do you have a couple of part numbers for comparison purposes? I may consider
fitting them like this too as an option for other stuff in the future - adds
some more choice looks wise.

I suppose the question is whether they are "intended" to be mounted on front
or back - there is no indication in the datasheets and I mount mine on the
front and have seen plenty of others done this way, and you mount yours on
the back so I assume others do that also. Would be nice to get an idea of
what the measurements/diagrams are intending.
If you look at the previous datasheet clip, it says 22.5mm from back of
panel to pins, but on the side view it has 21.7 + 2.3 = 24mm from where back
of panel would be to same pins? Either way round it doesn't seem to add up,
which is what is really bugging me :-)



2010\07\07@033311 by David Duffy (AVD)

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On 7/07/2010 4:53 PM, Oli Glaser wrote:
> Do you have a couple of part numbers for comparison purposes? I may
> consider
> fitting them like this too as an option for other stuff in the future - adds
> some more choice looks wise.
>
> I suppose the question is whether they are "intended" to be mounted on front
> or back - there is no indication in the datasheets and I mount mine on the
> front and have seen plenty of others done this way, and you mount yours on
> the back so I assume others do that also. Would be nice to get an idea of
> what the measurements/diagrams are intending.
> If you look at the previous datasheet clip, it says 22.5mm from back of
> panel to pins, but on the side view it has 21.7 + 2.3 = 24mm from where back
> of panel would be to same pins? Either way round it doesn't seem to add up,
> which is what is really bugging me :-)
>    

No idea on the P/N's off the top of my head.

You really do need to get a sample and eyeball it for yourself I think.

If it's out of stock, get another version (diff pins?) maybe?
David...

--
___________________________________________
David Duffy        Audio Visual Devices P/L
Unit 8, 10 Hook St, Capalaba 4157 Australia
Ph: +61 7 38235717      Fax: +61 7 38234717
Our Web Site: http://www.audiovisualdevices.com.au
___________________________________________

2010\07\07@065534 by Oli Glaser

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From: "David Duffy (AVD)" <davidEraseMEspam.....audiovisualdevices.com.au>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 8:33 AM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <EraseMEpiclistspammit.edu>
Subject: Re: [EE]:: Datasheet frustration

{Quote hidden}

No problem on the P/Ns, thanks for all the help anyway.
It's a 3 week wait for stock, and it's a 4-pin horizontal PCB mount XLR,
which are pretty rare so I'm a bit stuck there. There is another version but
it costs three times as much (£7 instead of £2.30) I ordered one just to
have look at too, but I'm very limited in choices. Looks like I'll just have
to make a best guess, and leave plenty of space for the Panel..

2010\07\07@105449 by Dwayne Reid

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At 09:34 PM 7/6/2010, Oli Glaser wrote:

>I'm used to datasheets not giving enough info and getting the odd thing
>wrong, but I was wondering if I'm missing something with this one.
>Basically if you look at the PCB guide at bottom left, I'm wondering how
>they can give exact measurements to the *back* of the panel the XLR socket
>is attached to (I know it doesn't specifically say it it the panel, but I
>have seen other sheets from neutrik where it is labeled)

I use a LOT of Neutrik connectors.

The 3-pin chassis-mount connectors we use are nc3fp-1 & nc3mp.  I
also use 4, 5, 6, 7 pin versions but nowhere near as many as the
3-pin connectors.

The connectors I use are intended to be mounted to either the front
or the rear of the panel they are mounted in.  They have a circular
protrusion a little less than 15/16" diameter, which is the same size
as the connector body.  Obviously, these connectors are NOT
pcb-mounted.  We mount them in holes punched to 15/16" diameter.

I've looked at the datasheets you provided and, quite frankly, they
seem pretty clear to me.  I'm not sure what your question is, though.

dwayne

--
Dwayne Reid   <RemoveMEdwaynerEraseMEspamEraseMEplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2010\07\07@175651 by Oli Glaser

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From: "Dwayne Reid" <RemoveMEdwaynerspam_OUTspamKILLspamplanet.eon.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 3:54 PM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <RemoveMEpiclistTakeThisOuTspamspammit.edu>
Subject: Re: [EE]:: Datasheet frustration

{Quote hidden}

I agree the datasheets are clear in all other respects - it was just the
measurement from the back of panel etc I was wondering about, as I have
tried to explain in my previous posts if you look at them and the attached
sheets. I'm just wondering how they can give accurate measurements if they
do not know where the back of the panel will be in relation to the pins etc,
as it depends on the panel thickness.
Obviously this only applies to PCB mounted versions, I use the solder tab
versions a lot as well.
It's not the biggest deal, and datasheets often leave you with a question or
two unanswered which you can usually make an educated guess at. I was just
curious more than anything, but it would be nice to have an accurate
measurement so I know exactly where the edge of my PCB will be in relation
to the panel.


2010\07\07@190244 by David Duffy (AVD)

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On 8/07/2010 7:55 AM, Oli Glaser wrote:
> I agree the datasheets are clear in all other respects - it was just the
> measurement from the back of panel etc I was wondering about, as I have
> tried to explain in my previous posts if you look at them and the attached
> sheets. I'm just wondering how they can give accurate measurements if they
> do not know where the back of the panel will be in relation to the pins etc,
> as it depends on the panel thickness.
> Obviously this only applies to PCB mounted versions, I use the solder tab
> versions a lot as well.
> It's not the biggest deal, and datasheets often leave you with a question or
> two unanswered which you can usually make an educated guess at. I was just
> curious more than anything, but it would be nice to have an accurate
> measurement so I know exactly where the edge of my PCB will be in relation
> to the panel.
>    

The short answer is that the PCB versions are intended to always mount
from the rear.
David...

--
___________________________________________
David Duffy        Audio Visual Devices P/L
Unit 8, 10 Hook St, Capalaba 4157 Australia
Ph: +61 7 38235717      Fax: +61 7 38234717
Our Web Site: http://www.audiovisualdevices.com.au
___________________________________________

2010\07\07@195022 by Oli Glaser

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From: "David Duffy (AVD)" <EraseMEdavidspamspamspamBeGoneaudiovisualdevices.com.au>
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 12:02 AM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <RemoveMEpiclistKILLspamspammit.edu>
Subject: Re: [EE]:: Datasheet frustration

{Quote hidden}

Yes, from a little more research that looks like the case with most PCB
versions (although I found a couple that mount on front I from the looks of
it)
Thanks a lot for all the help, it all makes a bit more sense now - I've
always been used to the front mount non PCB versions. Still would be nice if
the intentions were made clear in the datasheet, although they probably are
in the series brochure somewhere.
I will make the changes accordingly and see how I go..


2010\07\07@205046 by Dwayne Reid

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At 03:55 PM 7/7/2010, Oli Glaser wrote:

>I agree the datasheets are clear in all other respects - it was just the
>measurement from the back of panel etc I was wondering about

I guess that is where the confusion comes in.

Because the connector is mounted to the PC board, the connector
mounts to the INSIDE of the enclosure.  In other words, it is the
measurement from the BACK of the panel that is important.

The actual panel thickness is irrelevant, so long is it not so thick
as to impede movement of the female connector's release button.

Does that make any sense?

dwayne


--
Dwayne Reid   <dwaynerSTOPspamspamspam_OUTplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2010\07\07@211636 by Oli Glaser

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From: "Dwayne Reid" <spamBeGonedwaynerSTOPspamspamEraseMEplanet.eon.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 1:50 AM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <KILLspampiclistspamBeGonespammit.edu>
Subject: Re: [EE]:: Datasheet frustration

{Quote hidden}

Yes, I could see it made sense that way at the start for rear mounting, as
that way the point of reference is fixed and has nothing to do with panel
thickness - I was not confused about that part but thanks anyway.
I was only confused as I thought they were intended to be mounted on the
*front* (as all the other solder tab versions tab I have used have been), so
then the back of the panel as a reference to the pins etc moves depending on
panel thickness. With that belief I obviously thought they should be taking
their measurements from the front of the panel (fixed reference point), as
the situation is reversed compared with rear mounting.

If the intention is to mount from behind (as it looks like it is for the PCB
mount versions) then there is no problem and it all makes perfect sense.

I suppose this is a minor thing compared to some of the parts I have
designed footprints for - you get the odd datasheet that has incorrect or
conflicting measurements and badly drawn illegible diagrams. Some don't even
have datasheets with part dimensions. With these kind of parts it helps a
lot to have the actual part there before trying to design the PCB, so lead
times are a pain if you want to have the board ready for when they arrive.
Sure most people have experienced this kind of situation from time to time,
especially with less common parts/designs.

Thanks again for the help, I think I'm okay to proceed with reasonable
confidence now :-)



2010\07\07@215337 by Dwayne Reid

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At 07:15 PM 7/7/2010, Oli Glaser wrote:

>I was only confused as I thought they were intended to be mounted on the
>*front* (as all the other solder tab versions tab I have used have been), so
>then the back of the panel as a reference to the pins etc moves depending on
>panel thickness.

I guess the best way to look at it is this:  How would you install
the entire PCB if it had to fit through that 15/16" diameter hole.

Do keep in mind that Neutrik DOES make 2-part connectors where the
guts of the connector mounts to the PCB but the connector shell
mounts through the FRONT of the panel.  There is a little screw slot
in the front middle of the connector guts that allows you to rotate a
tab that locks the two pieces together.

But - those are actually a pain in the A** to work with.

dwayne

--
Dwayne Reid   <EraseMEdwaynerspamEraseMEplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2010\07\07@222959 by Oli Glaser

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From: "Dwayne Reid" <@spam@dwayner@spam@spamspam_OUTplanet.eon.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 2:53 AM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <spamBeGonepiclistspamKILLspammit.edu>
Subject: Re: [EE]:: Datasheet frustration

{Quote hidden}

Yes, I have just been working with a couple of those 2-part models on one of
our Mic Preamp prototypes. I agree they are a bit of a pain to work with
(the screw slot is real fiddly), and probably another reason I expected this
one to do similarly.
I may change these too and have the whole lot mount from the back for ease
of construction, and consistency looks wise, as the box design has yet to be
finalised with the box manufacturer. We just have an initial prototype from
them, and any changes are going be very small as regards mounting posts for
the PCB, hole sizes etc.
Essentially we are using one 4-pin XLR for 48V and 24V power input, and 4,
3-pin XLR (2 male, two female) for input/output signals, all PCB mounted.
Shouldn't take very long to source new connectors and change the boards
slightly, and I'm beginning to like the idea of only the round part being
visible, pretty sure everyone else here will agree too.


2010\07\08@121559 by Dwayne Reid

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At 08:28 PM 7/7/2010, Oli Glaser wrote:
>Essentially we are using one 4-pin XLR for 48V and 24V power input, and 4,
>3-pin XLR (2 male, two female) for input/output signals, all PCB mounted.

Hi there.

Not sure if you have already decided upon a pinout for the 4-pin
connector yet, but you may want to consider that standard 12V & 24V
camera / lighting battery belts use 4-pin connectors with gnd on pin1
& V+ on pin4.

Just something to keep in mind.

Question: what are you building?

dwayne

--
Dwayne Reid   <.....dwaynerspam_OUTspamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2010\07\08@134350 by Harold Hallikainen

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Off the original topic, but still datasheets. How does everyone like
Microchip's new datasheet page at
http://www.microchip.com/TechDoc.aspx?type=datasheet ? It looks pretty
useless to me.

Harold


--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com - Advertising
opportunities available!

2010\07\09@091517 by Oli Glaser

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From: "Dwayne Reid" <TakeThisOuTdwayner.....spamTakeThisOuTplanet.eon.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 5:15 PM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <TakeThisOuTpiclistKILLspamspamspammit.edu>
Subject: Re: [EE]:: Datasheet frustration

{Quote hidden}

It's a transformer balanced, all discrete, class A, mic preamp. The 24V is
for operation and the 48V for phantom power, with probably power ground and
signal ground for the other two pins.


2010\07\09@130745 by Dwayne Reid

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At 07:13 AM 7/9/2010, Oli Glaser wrote:
>--------------------------------------------------
>From: "Dwayne Reid" <.....dwaynerspamRemoveMEplanet.eon.net>
>Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 5:15 PM
>To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <RemoveMEpiclistspamspamBeGonemit.edu>
>Subject: Re: [EE]:: Datasheet frustration
> >
> > Question: what are you building?
>
>It's a transformer balanced, all discrete, class A, mic preamp. The 24V is
>for operation and the 48V for phantom power, with probably power ground and
>signal ground for the other two pins.

Cool!

Send me specs and cost, if you don't mind.

What company is this?

Thanks!

dwayne

--
Dwayne Reid   <spamBeGonedwayner@spam@spamspam_OUTplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

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