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'[EE]:: Converting all incandescent bulbs to CFLs w'
2012\02\01@070803 by RussellMc

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An interesting and remarkably thorough appearing analysis of the
impact of converting from incandescent bulbs to CFL bulbs in Canada.

While country wide this would lead to a new reduction in CO2
emissions, in a number of provinces the net effect would be an
increase in annual CO2 emissions.
I don't have the figures to hand but somebody said that in eg Quebec
the effect would be the same as adding 24,000? motor vehicles on the
roads.
The report notes that some people find the results implausible and
analyses the typical reasons s=and why the results are indeed correct
(they say).

I won't spoil it for you by pointing out t simple reason that this
effect occurs. Ask if you can't see why. (Skim report first).

Report:

          Impact of Conversion to Compact  Fluorescent Lighting, and
other Energy Efficient Devices,
          on Greenhouse Gas Emissions

Site:

<http://www.intechopen.com/source/pdfs/11764/InTech-Impact_of_conversion_to_compact_fluorescent_lighting_and_other_energy_efficient_devices_on_greenhouse_gas_emissions.pdf

2012\02\02@015426 by William \Chops\ Westfield

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On Feb 1, 2012, at 4:07 AM, RussellMc wrote:

> impact of converting from incandescent bulbs to CFL bulbs in Canada.

Ouch.  "Whether CFLs reduce greenhouse emissions is highly local and depends on how your power is generated as well as whether the desired internal temperature is cooler or warmer than the external temperature, and for how long each year."

The basic premise would hold true for any illumination technology.  Essentially "lighting efficiency can be irrelevant to greenhouse emissions."  Which makes sense, since HVAC tends to dwarf lighting when it comes to energy use...

Interestingly, they rate the fabrication cost (in energy) of CFLs and Incandescents as essentially equal (referencing some other document.)

BillW

2012\02\02@022828 by RussellMc

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> Ouch.  "Whether CFLs reduce greenhouse emissions  ...

> The basic premise would hold true for any illumination technology.  Essentially "lighting efficiency can be irrelevant to greenhouse emissions."  Which makes sense, since HVAC tends to dwarf lighting when it comes to energy use...

The efficiency irrelevance was because the "saved" energy was produced
by "clean" sources and the consequent loss of heat output was made up
for with energy sourced from CO2 emitting sources.
This is specific to the Canadian situation in the provinces concerned.
They seem to have gone to commendable lengths to ask and answer the
question properly, even if one suspect their cor rational may not be
quite what it seems.  In NZ we have a preponderance of hydro based
power and the same result would be unlikely.


           Russell

2012\02\02@075047 by Marc Nicholas

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On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 2:27 AM, RussellMc <spam_OUTapptechnzTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:

> <snip>
> quite what it seems.  In NZ we have a preponderance of hydro based
> power and the same result would be unlikely.
>

Hydro-electric is so prominent here in Ontario and Quebec that most people
refer to electricity as "hydro".

-

2012\02\02@080107 by RussellMc

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> Hydro-electric is so prominent here in Ontario and Quebec that most people
> refer to electricity as "hydro".

But, apparently, most home heating is gas or oil - so that when you
remove hot incandescents you up your oil use and drop your hydro use.


2012\02\02@111725 by Herbert Graf

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On Fri, 2012-02-03 at 02:00 +1300, RussellMc wrote:
> > Hydro-electric is so prominent here in Ontario and Quebec that most people
> > refer to electricity as "hydro".
>
> But, apparently, most home heating is gas or oil - so that when you
> remove hot incandescents you up your oil use and drop your hydro use.
>
>
>        R

As is so often the case, it entirely depends WHERE you are.

In the more southern parts of ontario heating is predominently gas (be
it natural gas or propane) or less commonly oil.

In more northern parts electricity comes more and more into play. Mostly
resistive, but heat pumps are also something you see from time to time.
Wood is also VERY common in more rural areas.

TTYL

2012\02\02@131500 by Gary Crowell

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So twice a year, perhaps when we change our clocks for daylight savings, we
should swap all incandescents for CFL's, and back again...


-- ----------------------------------------------
Gary A. Crowell Sr., P.E., CID+
Linkedin <http://www.linkedin.com/in/garyacrowellsr>
Elance<www.linkedin.com/redirect?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgaryacrowellsr%2Eelance%2Ecom&urlhash=kJm9>
 KE7FIZ <http://www.arrl.org

2012\02\03@200405 by Justin Richards

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In winter I often consider that the computers and tv's that are on in
the house serve two purposes and get more bang for buck for my
electricity.

In summer, I crack down on the kids for leaving them on when not in
use and ponder ways to store the heat for the following winter or pipe
in the cool from someplace else

2012\02\04@021108 by RussellMc

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>  and ponder ways to store the heat for the following winter

Salt concentration-gradient ponds seem to work over any months.
Example given in one paper of annual cycle in India.

Page 290 on gives an excellent description
Fig 8.3 sjows annual cycles in an Indian pond.

       http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=O8IMS-jq6skC&pg=PA292&lpg=PA292&dq=salt+concentration+gradient+thermal+storage&source=bl&ots=RvwEPFZhwp&sig=VeECi8bQ5edj-fsmuRO1QJRWDT4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZKYsT-LNLISriAf9m7zhDg&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=salt%20concentration%20gradient%20thermal%20storage&f=false

Sandia labs

 www.nrel.gov/csp/troughnet/pdfs/jpacheco_thermocline.pdf
Paper
         http://infohouse.p2ric.org/ref/22/21032.pdf

Book,good. P34

  http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=IBLmmnea5sQC&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=salt+concentration+gradient+thermal+storage&source=bl&ots=qe45bj5yRg&sig=C40Y4DaAOsT9EhfkB-wunqWccrM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZKYsT-LNLISriAf9m7zhDg&ved=0CF0Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=salt%20concentration%20gradient%20thermal%20storage&f=false


Wikipedia
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond

Solar thermal

   http://www.green-trust.org/solarpond.htm

CEM El Paso

   http://research.utep.edu/Default.aspx?alias=research.utep.edu/cerm

US DofE,

http://www.eere.energy.gov/basics/renewable_energy/thermal_storage.html



http://www.nrel.gov/csp/troughnet/pdfs/jpacheco_thermocline.pdf

        http://www.eere.energy.gov/basics/renewable_energy/thermal_storage..html

2012\02\04@173306 by cdb

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Nowhere can I see in that report is how insulated a dwelling is might effect their analysis.

I would have thought being so cold, insulation in this day and age would have been a must have, but then I was surprised to discover that NZ like Australia on the whole, considers insulation and double/triple glazing to be the province of weird thinking people.

Colin
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2012\02\04@182703 by c h

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cdb wrote:
>  but then I was surprised to discover that NZ like
> Australia on the whole, considers insulation and double/triple glazing to
> be the province of weird thinking people.
>

They span 10C to 25C over year; long time, no see ice in Auckland

2012\02\04@201028 by IVP

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> NZ like Australia on the whole, considers insulation and double/triple
> glazing to be the province of weird-thinking people

As a weird-thinking people, I'd say that's much more true of glazing.
I've never encountered a door-to-door double-glazing salesman for
example, the butt of many a UK joke

The government promotes insulation but you hardly hear anything
about double glazing. I know of only one - occassional - advertiser
for it and that's on radio, once a week in a sport program (it's one
of those 'phone-out' chats, the presenter's probably got it free)

Much older homes do tend to be un- or poorly insulated but
installation is subsidised. Cold in NZ is not so much a problem as
humidity, and insulation keeps the house dry and free from mould,
helping to prevent spore-related sicknesses and asthm

2012\02\04@211045 by RussellMc

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I concur with Joe, more or less.
I've heard of double glazing being done but don't think I have ever
seen any (except in Mr Boeing and Mr Airbus's fine products.

But home insulation is the norm, is well enough promoted and, as joe
says, and is government subsidised.  It's mandatory in new homes.

Winter in Auckland usually gets as cold as frost plus ice on garden
ponds in some areas sometime.
It snowed lightly here in a few places in  the urban areas last Winter
- something I have not seen in person in  my lifetime, including this
time, alas.

In the South Island Winter can be substantially more severe with
occasional ones so bad that sheep and cattle die in substantial
numbers when snowed in.



Russel

2012\02\05@005914 by c h
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> I concur with Joe, more or less.
> I've heard of double glazing being done but don't think I have ever
> seen any (except in Mr Boeing and Mr Airbus's fine products.
>
> But home insulation is the norm, is well enough promoted and, as joe
> says, and is government subsidised.  It's mandatory in new homes.
>

I don't know, if all you need is to make air dry, then dry it; fresh
air is needed anyway. Normally built uninsulated house does not
provide enough fresh air, some incoming fresh air is needed. Double
and tripple glazing takes sunlight making the house colder and even
more humid. The key, I believe, is to keep the house warm in winter,
or dry air by conditioning in summer.

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