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'[EE]:: Arduino and much much much more links page'
2011\11\16@111523 by RussellMc

face picon face
Even if you never approach an Arduino closer than the length of a
Quant Pole* this page is liable to be found to have 'useful stuff'
[tm]

             http://www.freeduino.org/

Many links to applications, projects Shields (up), resources, circuits.
Quality liable to vary widely. Of course.
Still liable to be some very useful material.
est ~~= 1000 links


  Russell

*
2.bp.blogspot.com/_XUmkUJg0r4A/SfMcE_e96WI/AAAAAAAAADo/FUbHYpzyTsQ/s1600/quant.jpeg
davecurran.blogspot.com/2009/04/punting-guide-to-river-cam.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quant_pol

2011\11\16@114416 by John Ferrell

face
flavicon
face
On 11/16/2011 11:14 AM, RussellMc wrote:
> Even if you never approach an Arduino closer than the length of a
> Quant Pole* this page is liable to be found to have 'useful stuff'
> [tm]
>
>                http://www.freeduino.org/
>
> Many links to applications, projects Shields (up), resources, circuits.
> Quality liable to vary widely. Of course.
> Still liable to be some very useful material.
> est ~~= 1000 links
>
>
>     Russell
>
> *
> 2.bp.blogspot.com/_XUmkUJg0r4A/SfMcE_e96WI/AAAAAAAAADo/FUbHYpzyTsQ/s1600/quant.jpeg
> davecurran.blogspot.com/2009/04/punting-guide-to-river-cam.html
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quant_pole
I gave up the resistance and ordered a UNO board & a couple of spare chips yesterday.
I must see closer!

How about an [ARDUINO] tag to allow the nay sayers to opt out.  The subject is not going away any time soon.
There are plenty of other places to go on the subject but this is my comfort zone.

-- John Ferrell W8CCW
"The man who complains about the way the
ball bounces is likely to be the one who dropped it."

2011\11\16@115630 by Alex Harford

face picon face
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:44 AM, John Ferrell <spam_OUTjferrell13TakeThisOuTspamtriad.rr.com> wrote:
>
> How about an [ARDUINO] tag to allow the nay sayers to opt out.  The
> subject is not going away any time soon.
> There are plenty of other places to go on the subject but this is my
> comfort zone.

I think it would fit in the existing [AVR] tag just fine.

I just recently discovered Sparkfun's Eagle library, they have an
Arduino shield part in there which makes it easy to create prototypes.

2011\11\16@130738 by Dwayne Reid

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face
At 09:44 AM 11/16/2011, John Ferrell wrote:

>I gave up the resistance and ordered a UNO board & a couple of spare
>chips yesterday.  I must see closer!

You can even stay with PICs, if you want.  Digilent is now selling Arduino clone boards called chipKIT, based on the PIC32 processor.  They extended the original Arduino compiler (open-source) to handle the different chip.  You can take your existing Arduino code, re-compile for the different platform, and it works.

<http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Catalog.cfm?NavPath=2,892&Cat=18>

chipKIT Uno32 $26.95 list
chipKIT Max32 $49.50 list

Basic I/O Shield  - has 128x32 graphic display, eeprom, I2C temp sensor, 4- open-drain FET drivers, 4- pushbuttons, 4- slide switches, 1- pot, 8- LEDs  $37.99

Network Shield - use only with Max32 - 10/100 Ethernet PHY /w RJ45, USB device and host connectors, 2- CAN transceivers & connectors, eeprom, 32KHz oscillator  $54.99

I couldn't resist either - I get a significant discount (Microchip Design Partner program) if I purchase from Microchip Direct and I bought a couple each of the Uno32 and Basic Shields just to play with.


Note that the extended Arduino compiler that you download from the Digilent link <https://github.com/chipKIT32/chipKIT32-MAX/downloads> works with both the original Arduino boards as well as the PIC32 versions.  In other words, Digilent is working hard to provide PIC alternatives for the AVR processors used on these boards without trying to move anyone away from the concept of Arduino.  It takes a LOT more work to make stuff compatible both ways and I applaud Digilent for doing so.

dwayne

-- Dwayne Reid   <.....dwaynerKILLspamspam@spam@planet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2011\11\16@131303 by Dwayne Reid

flavicon
face
At 09:56 AM 11/16/2011, Alex Harford wrote:

>I think it would fit in the existing [AVR] tag just fine.

It would have until just recently.  Now you can get PIC-based Arduino boards (see my earlier post).  Note also that Arduino boards using other processors are coming to market as I write this (Arm Cortex, for example).

I'm not advocating that we need a new tag, just pointing out that Arduino no longer fits solely into the [AVR] category anymore.  That said: a new tag * might * be appropriate.  I'll leave it for others to decide.

dwayne

-- Dwayne Reid   <dwaynerspamKILLspamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2011\11\16@132535 by Marc Nicholas

picon face
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:44 AM, John Ferrell <.....jferrell13KILLspamspam.....triad.rr.com>wrote:

> How about an [ARDUINO] tag to allow the nay sayers to opt out.  The
> subject is not going away any time soon.
> There are plenty of other places to go on the subject but this is my
> comfort zone.


I'd second the vote for an ARDUINO tag. As someone else posted, Arduino is
more than AVR now and Arduino is more of an ecosystem (to me) than just a
chip choice.

I also recently caved in an got an Arduino (or three) and must say I'm
*loving it* for quick prototyping. PIC still has an interest for me in
product development, though -- cheap, mission specific, etc.

-

2011\11\16@133521 by Neil Cherry

flavicon
face
On 11/16/2011 01:07 PM, Dwayne Reid wrote:
> At 09:44 AM 11/16/2011, John Ferrell wrote:
>
>> I gave up the resistance and ordered a UNO board & a couple of spare
>> chips yesterday.  I must see closer!
>
> You can even stay with PICs, if you want.  Digilent is now selling
> Arduino clone boards called chipKIT, based on the PIC32
> processor.  They extended the original Arduino compiler (open-source)
> to handle the different chip.  You can take your existing Arduino
> code, re-compile for the different platform, and it works.
>
> <www.digilentinc.com/Products/Catalog.cfm?NavPath=2,892&Cat=18>
>
> chipKIT Uno32 $26.95 list
> chipKIT Max32 $49.50 list

I've picked up both an Arduino (Nanode) and a couple of ChipKits.
I'm hoping to learn a bit more about these as I will be supporting
users (friends) who want to play with this stuff.

-- Linux Home Automation         Neil Cherry       EraseMEncherryspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTlinuxha.com
http://www.linuxha.com/                         Main site
http://linuxha.blogspot.com/                    My HA Blog
Author of:            Linux Smart Homes For Dummie

2011\11\16@143136 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
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> I'd second the vote for an ARDUINO tag. As someone else posted, Arduino
> is
> more than AVR now and Arduino is more of an ecosystem (to me) than just a
> chip choice.

Unless there is significant ongoing traffic, there's probably no need
for formal tagging, it fits into [EE] fine, and simply having "Arduino"
somewhere in the subject line will clue people in to what might be in
the message.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin

2011\11\16@150133 by doug metzler

picon face
> Unless there is significant ongoing traffic, there's probably no need
> for formal tagging, it fits into [EE] fine, and simply having "Arduino"
> somewhere in the subject line will clue people in to what might be in
> the message.

I think if you created an Arduino tag you should be prepared for an
onslaught of questions and traffic :-)

I think we should do it - I use Arduino all the time for quick
mock-ups and one-offs so I would be happy to see this list supporting
the platform.

Thanks,

DougM


On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Bob Blick <bobblickspamspam_OUTftml.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2011\11\16@155313 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
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On Wednesday, November 16, 2011 12:01 PM, "doug metzler" wrote:
> > Unless there is significant ongoing traffic, there's probably no need
> > for formal tagging, it fits into [EE] fine, and simply having "Arduino"
> > somewhere in the subject line will clue people in to what might be in
> > the message.
>
> I think if you created an Arduino tag you should be prepared for an
> onslaught of questions and traffic :-)

Over the years tags develop mostly from complaints about too much
traffic, and people wanting a way to shut it off - so start complaining
about too much Arduino traffic?

:)

Cheerful regards,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail

2011\11\16@160844 by PICdude

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face
I have also played with Arduinos and very much agree that the  environment makes it very easy to hammer out quick simple projects.   Been meaning to try out the Digilent-PIC version.

I don't think we should have an Arduino forum/tag here as there are  already some very good forums for that.  However would I absolutely  agree with a PIC-specific Arduino forum (Digilent etc), to discuss  things specific to those spin-offs.  Or perhaps include other  non-Atmel Arduino spin-offs (Freescale, etc).  Perhaps call it  "[ALTDUINO]" :)

Cheers,
-Neil.


Quoting Marc Nicholas <@spam@geekythingKILLspamspamgmail.com>:

{Quote hidden}

>

2011\11\16@170506 by RussellMc

face picon face
Hat: Party.

> > I think if you created an Arduino tag you should be prepared for an
> > onslaught of questions and traffic :-)

> Over the years tags develop mostly from complaints about too much
> traffic, and people wanting a way to shut it off - so start complaining
> about too much Arduino traffic?

I posted a link to an applications list. I didn't want you to all
start discussing Arduino's in EE. Can you take it somewhere else.
Please


                 R

Is that what you had in mind :-

2011\11\16@171414 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
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On Thursday, November 17, 2011 11:04 AM, "RussellMc"  wrote:
> Hat: Party.
>
> > > I think if you created an Arduino tag you should be prepared for an
> > > onslaught of questions and traffic :-)
>
> > Over the years tags develop mostly from complaints about too much
> > traffic, and people wanting a way to shut it off - so start complaining
> > about too much Arduino traffic?
>
> I posted a link to an applications list. I didn't want you to all
> start discussing Arduino's in EE. Can you take it somewhere else.
> Please
>
>
>                   R
>
> Is that what you had in mind :-)

Yes, exactly so!

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...

2011\11\16@175209 by RussellMc

face picon face
> Yes, exactly so!

:-

2011\11\16@180755 by Yigit Turgut

picon face
I had thought of the same about 8~9 months ago and ordered one. It was
fun to play for a couple of days. It takes a couple of minutes to
success (literally).

If you are fine with working on an arduino uno you probably don't care
claustrophobia as well.

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:44 PM, John Ferrell <RemoveMEjferrell13TakeThisOuTspamtriad.rr.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2011\11\16@201851 by RussellMc

face picon face
NB Casting aspersions on characters or natures of non specific persons
just because they are members of a group is probably a bad idea.
> If you are fine with working on an arduino uno you probably don't care
> claustrophobia as well.

Making generalised "knocking" statements on any system which does not
meet our exacting standards is generally a bad idea.
No?

I've no doubt that their restrictions are annoying to the otherwise
informed, but some make an art form out of maximalist achievement with
minimalist resources, and the Apollo Lunar Landers (bottom halves) sit
on the Moon (except in Fox TV lunaverse) as mute testimony of what can
be done with less computing power than an Arduino has (but a more
flexible and horrendously more interesting programming model :-) ).

I suspect that my  daughter (Grade Point average just under 9,
qualified doctor, A&E obsession) who will never touch a traditional
microcontroller system come hell and both high waters, could and may
yet do something to the great benefit of mankind with an Arduino.
Claustrophilic she's not.

I have never looked at an Arduino's code or general program model, and
have been only generally acquainted with its apparent limitations.

BUT I do note that there are a very large number of people doing a
large number of variably useful things with them who would not
otherwise be using a microcontroller at all. This certainly SEEMS like
a good thing.






   Russel

2011\11\16@234307 by Carey Fisher

face picon face
> I have never looked at an Arduino's code or general program model, and
> have been only generally acquainted with its apparent limitations.
>
> BUT I do note that there are a very large number of people doing a
> large number of variably useful things with them who would not
> otherwise be using a microcontroller at all. This certainly SEEMS like
> a good thing.
>
>
>    Russell
>

It IS a good thing.  During a 1 week summer camp two years ago, I taught a
group of middle schoolers to hook up and program an Arduino that was
connected to an RC car.  They programmed different driving patterns
(forward for 10 sec, then rev for 10 sec, then drive in a figure 8, etc...)
and had a ball.  They learned a lot that applies not only to programming
but to their academics as well  such as "you have to spell the commands
(words) correctly", "you have to use the correct punctuation (semicolons &
curly braces etc vs commas, semicolons and period)".  And they had a ton of
fun designing and implementing their own driving patterns.

I also showed them how to make (monotonic) music with the Arduino and a
speaker including converting  musical scores to tone values etc.  They
understood the connection to musical greeting cards immediately.

I was surprised how easily they picked up the concept of writing a program
and how quickly they learned the commands, syntax, program logic and
structure.

I wrote up the technical details for the RC car project in an Instructable:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Autonomous-Control-of-RC-Car-Using-Arduino/..


Carey Fisher
Chief Technical Officer
New Communications Solutions, LLC
678-999-3956
spamBeGonecareyfisherspamBeGonespamncsradio.co

2011\11\17@105545 by Yigit Turgut

picon face
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 3:18 AM, RussellMc <TakeThisOuTapptechnzEraseMEspamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
> NB Casting aspersions on characters or natures of non specific persons
> just because they are members of a group is probably a bad idea.
>> If you are fine with working on an arduino uno you probably don't care
>> claustrophobia as well.
>
> Making generalised "knocking" statements on any system which does not
> meet our exacting standards is generally a bad idea.
> No?

Depends. Maybe.
>
> I've no doubt that their restrictions are annoying to the otherwise
> informed, but some make an art form out of maximalist achievement with
> minimalist resources, and the Apollo Lunar Landers (bottom halves) sit
> on the Moon (except in Fox TV lunaverse) as mute testimony of what can
> be done with less computing power than an Arduino has (but a more
> flexible and horrendously more interesting programming model :-) ).

It's not about the computing power. An Atmega328 running at 50Mhz with
full performance settings will satisfy most of the industrial
expectations already. It's about the attitude. Arduino doesn't
introduce something new". People that started prototyping with arduino
due to it's ease of use could do exactly the same 5 years ago as well.
Technically speaking, they wasted 5 years of their lifetime to achieve
the same result just because they were seeking someone to construct a
platform that will make things just a bit easier.
{Quote hidden}

One part of me says that it's certainly a good thing, but I am the
other part nowadays.

2011\11\17@134646 by RussellMc

face picon face
> It's not about the computing power. An Atmega328 running at 50Mhz with
> full performance settings will satisfy most of the industrial
> expectations already. It's about the attitude. Arduino doesn't
> introduce something new". People that started prototyping with arduino
> due to it's ease of use could do exactly the same 5 years ago as well.
> Technically speaking, they wasted 5 years of their lifetime to achieve
> the same result just because they were seeking someone to construct a
> platform that will make things just a bit easier.

That's an important point and I'm not (just :-) ) wanting to be argumentative.

For many decades people have said things like "BUT you could do that
years ago with xxx" and "that's a step (or several) backwards
technically" etc.
And in many cases what they say is true enough.
BUT then something like the Arduino appears with no apparent
overwhelming technical merit, a dumbing down of ability and a
swallowing up of computer power, and then also many many many
(millions?) of people are actually doing all the things that people
say they could have been doing all these years. Whatever the 'could
have been' barrier was, Arduino has broken through it. None of the
could have beens managed.


I note you skipped comment on this part :-)

>> I suspect that my  daughter (Grade Point average just under 9,
>> qualified doctor, A&E obsession) who will never touch a traditional
>> microcontroller system come hell and both high waters, could and may
>> yet do something to the great benefit of mankind with an Arduino.
>> Claustrophilic she's not.

Odds are she's got more raw ability and beauty than both of us
together (certainly the latter I'm sure) but it is generally
channelled into highly worthwhile areas that differ from what we may
be involved in day to day. Arduino can and does, apparently, provide a
tool to do things they would otherwsie never have done. Someday she
just may look at her digital USB ported high tech stethoscope and
decide she'd like to do something real-time ish with the data as she
walks around. Or ... .
______________

> One part of me says that it's certainly a good thing, but I am the
> other part nowadays.

There's a general tendency as we grow old (ask me how I know) to
gravitate towards becoming high priest wannabees or wizzened sour
apples. Both may be a good idea to work against :-). May :-).

I must acquire an Arduino and have a play and see what the fuss is all
about :-).
(I could show my daughter hgow it can talk to her stethoscope).

Now look what you've done :-)





Russell

2011\11\17@140236 by Alex Harford

face picon face
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 10:46 AM, RussellMc <RemoveMEapptechnzspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
>
> BUT then something like the Arduino appears with no apparent
> overwhelming technical merit, a dumbing down of ability and a
> swallowing up of computer power, and then also many many many
> (millions?) of people are actually doing all the things that people
> say they could have been doing all these years. Whatever the 'could
> have been' barrier was, Arduino has broken through it. None of the
> could have beens managed.

I agree that it wasn't technically ahead of any of the other
development boards at the time. I think the thing that put it over the
top was this, from the Arduino FAQ:

"Open-source hardware shares much of the principles and approach of
free and open-source software. In particular, we believe that people
should be able to study our hardware to understand how it works, make
changes to it, and share those changes. To facilitate this, we release
all of the original design files (Eagle CAD) for the Arduino hardware.
These files are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution
Share-Alike license, which allows for both personal and commercial
derivative works, as long as they credit Arduino and release their
designs under the same license.
The Arduino software is also open-source. The source code for the Java
environment is released under the GPL and the C/C++ microcontroller
libraries are under the LGPL."

It also came at a time when sharing your code became very easy through
free web hosting, sourceforge, github, etc.

Eventually it hit a critical mass of people using it, and now it's
going to be hard to beat

2011\11\17@141038 by doug metzler

picon face
This is a classic Mac vs. PC argument :-)

The arduino is the Mac of the embedded world.  Everything else is PC.
If you grew up with a PC (or linux) then you laugh at the lack of
flexibility of the system, but if you grew up with a Mac then the
whole PC world seems arcane.

I grew up in the PC world, but I ended up with a Mac laptop, and now I
find it almost impossible to use PC laptops anymore, because the Mac
UI is so much smoother and better and more intuitive.  However, to get
real work done I still trundle out the PC.

Same thing here.  I use the Arduino every chance I get because it's
fast and effortless to develop for, it's got great sample code and
good documentation and lots of available support.  I can get the work
done very fast.

But when it comes to complex projects that require speed and fast
interrupt cycles and there are lots of things going on, I go back to
the straight AVR studio.

Thanks,

DougM

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 10:46 AM, RussellMc <apptechnzEraseMEspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2011\11\17@142331 by John Gardner

picon face
....now it's going to be hard to beat...

I doubt it's a zero-sum game - And to the extent it holds up
buggy, expensive tool chains & lousy documentation to the
light, well...

My $0.02 HK...

Jac

2011\11\17@143114 by Peter Johansson

picon face
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 2:10 PM, doug metzler <EraseMEdoug.metzlerspamgmail.com> wrote:

> This is a classic Mac vs. PC argument :-)
>
> The arduino is the Mac of the embedded world.  Everything else is PC.
> If you grew up with a PC (or linux) then you laugh at the lack of
> flexibility of the system, but if you grew up with a Mac then the
> whole PC world seems arcane.

This is analogy is only correct under the widely-accepted
misconceptions about Macs.  Those of us who see Mac's primarially as a
first-class UNIX systems with first-class development tools and
libraries shudder at analogies like this.

> I grew up in the PC world, but I ended up with a Mac laptop, and now I
> find it almost impossible to use PC laptops anymore, because the Mac
> UI is so much smoother and better and more intuitive.

I grew up in a UNIX world, as as such have always found Windows to be
a cruel joke played on most computer users.

>  However, to get
> real work done I still trundle out the PC.

Given that many development tools are only available under Windows, I
do find myself spending far more time under Windows than I would like.

-p.

2011\11\17@150443 by Electron

flavicon
face


Talking about PIC32 Arduinos:

I wonder.. what would be the advantage of coding in Arduino on a PIC32,
which already comes with a powerful C compiler?

Libraries. OK, but besides this? I see no advantage.. it had a sense as
an alternative to 8 bit asm programming of AVR's, but on the PIC32? OK,
unless one wants to recycle the Arduino code out there (instead of using
one of the many Microchip & Co. libs for the PIC32..).


At 00.07 2011.11.17, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> -

2011\11\17@151541 by RussellMc

face picon face
> I wonder.. what would be the advantage of coding in Arduino on a PIC32,
> which already comes with a powerful C compiler?

Looking in from the very very outside, so far, I'd imagine that the
Arduino based system would be significantly easier and cheaper  to get
going than typical alternatives, and less "powerful" once you had. So
to make sense at all on the A it would need to be usefully f=more
powerful than A' with lower spec parts.

As this is only an uninformed impression, the reality may be
interesting to know about.

2011\11\17@152643 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

flavicon
face
Em 17/11/2011 17:59, Electron escreveu:
>
> Talking about PIC32 Arduinos:
>
> I wonder.. what would be the advantage of coding in Arduino on a PIC32,
> which already comes with a powerful C compiler?
>
> Libraries. OK, but besides this? I see no advantage.. it had a sense as
> an alternative to 8 bit asm programming of AVR's, but on the PIC32? OK,
> unless one wants to recycle the Arduino code out there (instead of using
> one of the many Microchip & Co. libs for the PIC32..).


That would make sense and is a good excuse, because there certainly are
a lot of code for Arduino in the Internet.


Isaac

2011\11\17@154306 by Electron

flavicon
face
At 20.31 2011.11.17, you wrote:
>On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 2:10 PM, doug metzler <RemoveMEdoug.metzlerspam_OUTspamKILLspamgmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is a classic Mac vs. PC argument :-)
>>
>> The arduino is the Mac of the embedded world.  Everything else is PC.
>> If you grew up with a PC (or linux) then you laugh at the lack of
>> flexibility of the system, but if you grew up with a Mac then the
>> whole PC world seems arcane.
>
>This is analogy is only correct under the widely-accepted
>misconceptions about Macs.  Those of us who see Mac's primarially as a
>first-class UNIX systems with first-class development tools and
>libraries shudder at analogies like this.

I second that..


>> I grew up in the PC world, but I ended up with a Mac laptop, and now I
>> find it almost impossible to use PC laptops anymore, because the Mac
>> UI is so much smoother and better and more intuitive.
>
>I grew up in a UNIX world, as as such have always found Windows to be
>a cruel joke played on most computer users.

I grew up with the Amiga, and I never understood why at realtime tasks all
other computers were so incredibly crap. ;)


>>  However, to get
>> real work done I still trundle out the PC.
>
>Given that many development tools are only available under Windows, I
>do find myself spending far more time under Windows than I would like.

Same here. :/


>-p.
>
>

2011\11\17@172159 by Neil Cherry

flavicon
face
On 11/17/2011 02:59 PM, Electron wrote:
>
>
> Talking about PIC32 Arduinos:
>
> I wonder.. what would be the advantage of coding in Arduino on a PIC32,
> which already comes with a powerful C compiler?

Uhm, that would be more horsepower for my inefficient code ... ;-)

> Libraries. OK, but besides this? I see no advantage.. it had a sense as
> an alternative to 8 bit asm programming of AVR's, but on the PIC32? OK,
> unless one wants to recycle the Arduino code out there (instead of using
> one of the many Microchip & Co. libs for the PIC32..).

Many are really looking at this in the wrong light. These products
aren't meant for serious embedded system work (serious meaning needing
knowledgeable engineers doing the engineering work). These are meant
for hobbyist, artists and others who need odds and ends of one-off
type projects (such as the crawling zombie on Instructables). Arduinos
also happen to be okay for quick one-offs or proof of concept work
where you're hours are worth more than the cost of the devices. For those
jobs throwing raw MIPS at inefficient code is probably not a bad idea.
Sometimes good enough is good enough.

One of the problems with this stuff is that when I have to start
basing my reputation on other's work (reuse, always a worry I have) I
tend to put more work into something and at some point I need to do it
right and not quick. At that point these kind of devices would give
me pause.

-- Linux Home Automation         Neil Cherry       RemoveMEncherryTakeThisOuTspamspamlinuxha.com
http://www.linuxha.com/                         Main site
http://linuxha.blogspot.com/                    My HA Blog
Author of:            Linux Smart Homes For Dummie

2011\11\17@193835 by Dwayne Reid

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face
At 03:21 PM 11/17/2011, Neil Cherry wrote:

>Many are really looking at this in the wrong light. These products
>aren't meant for serious embedded system work (serious meaning needing
>knowledgeable engineers doing the engineering work). These are meant
>for hobbyist, artists and others who need odds and ends of one-off
>type projects (such as the crawling zombie on Instructables). Arduinos
>also happen to be okay for quick one-offs or proof of concept work
>where you're hours are worth more than the cost of the devices. For those
>jobs throwing raw MIPS at inefficient code is probably not a bad idea.
>Sometimes good enough is good enough.
>
>One of the problems with this stuff is that when I have to start
>basing my reputation on other's work (reuse, always a worry I have) I
>tend to put more work into something and at some point I need to do it
>right and not quick. At that point these kind of devices would give
>me pause.

I think that you may have summarized how I feel about Arduino, Basic Stamps, and other similar units.

If its a one-off (or two-off or maybe even a six-off), I'll usually go for either one of my already-existing boards (if it fits the project) or for one of the Arduino / Basic Stamp boards (if it can be made to fit the project).  Depends entirely upon the project.  For example, I expect to see a LOT of CHIPkit Uno32's in my future.

However, if there any safety concerns (external watchdog / supply supervisor, hardware interlocks, etc) **OR** if this is going to have any volume at all, I prefer to write my own code and / or design up a proper PCB that is tailored to the project.

I think the delineating factor is: How much extra hardware do I have to throw at the project to make it work with an already-existing board?  If I need to add another largish board with the extra electronics, why not just include one of my already-existing PIC core sections on that board?

I've done a LOT of board designs and re-designs over the past couple of decades and have a LOT of already-proven-working hardware designs to tap.  But if the project is simple enough that I can use someone else's board design, I'll absolutely do just that.

As you rightly point out: good enough is good enough.


Finally, as a number of people have already pointed out: I'm grateful that ecosystems such as Arduino and Basic Stamps exist and flourish.  It brings electronics into the realm of non-technical people and lets them create their own designs.  Many of them even learn significant amounts of electronics technology along the way.  I really think that this is a Good Thing.

dwayne

-- Dwayne Reid   <EraseMEdwaynerspamspamspamBeGoneplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2011\11\17@210812 by IVP

face picon face
> Finally, as a number of people have already pointed out: I'm grateful
> that ecosystems such as Arduino and Basic Stamps exist and
> flourish.  It brings electronics into the realm of non-technical
> people and lets them create their own designs.  Many of them even
> learn significant amounts of electronics technology along the way.  I
> really think that this is a Good Thing.

A while ago I joined an educational group as a mentor. The group's
members are mostly secondary school kids, 11 - 18, a few just out
of school and a few teachers as admins. They use a variety of PICAXEs
and Arduinos. Whilst many of them do have bright ideas and a keenness
to make something "awesome", I was disappointed to find that general
electronics is off the curriculum in NZ, and that a lot of advice about
basic components was either missing or poor. For example guessing
at the resistor with an LED. "Oh, just use 100 ohms and it'll be fine"
sort of thing. I really think my Ohm's Law examples came as a bit of
a surprise. And the questions which Olin loves - "My PICAXE data
sheet says to run it at 5V. Can I use 12V ?"

Hopefully I've imparted to them that, yes, you really should stop and
think, do a bit of maths if you have to and just slow down a little. But
the impetuousity of youth is not always easy to put the brakes to. Give
that "awesome" project at least some sort of reasonable life expectancy

Jo

2011\11\18@141822 by Tom Řyvind Hogstad

picon face
Could or can any other board do this:

Connect the board with USB

Code:
Serial.print("Hello world.");

Hit upload, open serial monitor.

See the thing respond!



--
- -- ---
Tom Øyvind Hogstad
..iWizard ®
Nano IKT
35524984 - 91567370

Web: http://nano.no
Facebook: http://facebook.com/hogstad


Sendt fra min iPad

2011\11\18@144320 by YES NOPE9

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face
I think the mbed does this
http://mbed.org/
99guspuppet



On Nov 18, 2011, at 12:21 PM, Tom Øyvind Hogstad wrote:

Could or can any other board do this:

Connect the board with USB

Code:
Serial.print("Hello world.");

Hit upload, open serial monitor.

See the thing respond!



--
- -- ---
Tom Øyvind Hogstad
..iWizard ®
Nano IKT
35524984 - 91567370

Web: http://nano.no
Facebook: http://facebook.com/hogstad


Sendt fra min iPad

2011\11\18@154024 by RussellMc

face picon face
> Code:
> Serial.print("Hello world.");


Does it do

Open:Channel D

         ?


2011\11\18@171348 by IVP

face picon face
>> Serial.print("Hello world.");

("Goodbye World")

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/251588730/kicksat-your-personal-spacecraft-in-space

2011\11\19@110752 by Electron

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face

And is it a good/desiderable thing from a board?


At 20.21 2011.11.18, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2011\11\19@111111 by Electron

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At 23.13 2011.11.18, you wrote:
>>> Serial.print("Hello world.");
>
>("Goodbye World")
>
>www.kickstarter.com/projects/251588730/kicksat-your-personal-sp
>acecraft-in-space
Is it a dangerous-space-debris creation program? :D

2011\11\19@153229 by RussellMc

face picon face
> >Could or can any other board do this:> >Connect the board with USB

> >Code:> >Serial.print("Hello world.");> >Hit upload, open serial monitor.
> >See the thing respond!

> And is it a good/desiderable thing from a board?

Yes, unless one is a putative  high priest wannabees or wizzened sour
apple in waiting.

Some used to insist that computers must live in large (must be large)
air conditioned  buildings served by white clad priests carrying
stacks of punch cards./ line flow / tapes / ... and be programmed in
really arcane languages like FORTROL and COBAN and when they saw the
(paperless) writing on the wall they started to LISP and try variants
if SEE-+-++-+++-+++_and sharp variants thereof.

The trappings linger long.

Let those who don't care a tiddly bit BUT who may yet save the world
[tm] in a very few cases and have a lot of mindless fun in most cases
do so. Sourly trying to keep our treasures oourselves and making the
path necessarily hard and difficult will not serve long term.

Whatever :-)


    Russell








{Quote hidden}

> >-

2011\11\19@193619 by IVP

face picon face
>>>> Serial.print("Hello world.");
>>
>>("Goodbye World")
>>
>>www.kickstarter.com/projects/251588730/kicksat-your-personal-sp
>>acecraft-in-space
>
> Is it a dangerous-space-debris creation program? :D

"How many characters can my initials/message be?

Initials/messages are limited to 4 characters"

Seems a bit mean

I wanted "geronimo!!!!!!!

2011\11\20@023723 by Electron

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face

OK, I got your point, but I was thinking from a mass-marketed product
developer point of view. Having the thing "raw" IMHO is an advantage, the
more in between the worse. It's like marrying a girl who has had thousands
of boyfriends, it makes things easier but it's not desiderable if you have
a plan for the future. *g*

So I understand and agree that what Tom wrote is desiderable for a beginner
or a hobbyst, but I agree also with those others that said that for any
"intensive" use, it creates more problems than those that it supposedly
solves.

Arduino & Co. come with libraries for SPI, I2C, motor management, etc..
OK, it may be a good thing for the hobbyst that has never approached those
devices and wants to glue something fast. But it doesn't make he learn
important and funny things.

The "serious" hobbyst or the "pro" instead may be happy to NOT have a
ready to use SPI, I2C or motor, etc.. code: it's an occasion to LEARN about
those and, guess what, 1) if you already did it, you can reuse your code as
fast as using an Arduino library, 2) you work with libraries YOU designed
and thus are just like you want them (tm), while using others' libraries
feels often awkward and one complains (if not look for workarounds) why
things were implemented that specific way, 3) with your own code you save
yourself from the NIH syndrome effects, 4) you can write in your resume
that you have a clue about how SPI, I2C, motors, etc.. work.

So there's no winner. Look at the girlfriend example I made above. :-)

Or, a different example may be that with a ready-to-use system you gain
immediately but lose as an investment, with your own system you make more
efforts at the begin but then you fly.

For me it has always been like the old saying "no pain, no gain".

Just personal opinions of course.

Cheers,
MarI/O


At 21.31 2011.11.19, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> >--

2011\11\20@044847 by Geo

picon face
Electron wrote:
<snip the girlfriend stuff as I don't have your experience <g> >

> Or, a different example may be that with a ready-to-use system you gain
> immediately but lose as an investment, with your own system you make more
> efforts at the begin but then you fly.

As a (now retired) "pro" I have four different Arduinos on the shelf in
front of me. Alongside is a small stack consisting of a homebrew PCB
with Atmega 1284 with similar (homemade) Ethernet shield, a Nokia 3310
display/joystick board and a RTC/SD card data logging board. This has
been monitoring the house central heating, water and temperature
humidity since July.

I have used the Arduinos previously as a quick "proof of concept" for
clients e.g. monitoring the power consumption of a remote site over GSM.
After that the real design starts - but without the client have to pay
and wait for PCB design/debugging, component purchase/delivery etc
before the real start of the project.
I think this is where their usefulness lies to the "pro".

George Smit

2011\11\20@072046 by Electron

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face
At 10.48 2011.11.20, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I absolutely agree on this, i.e. to develop algoritms, etc.. then these
rapid development tools are very useful. But I have my own, using the same
code libraries I then use for the production units, however I will stress
again that for "proof of concept", development, etc.. the requirements are
much different than for the final thing (tm), so if one doesn't even have
made previous similar boards yet, then welcome Arduino and similar. My first
experiments with a PIC32 were with a Starter Kit and expansion boards,
mainly because DIP versions of the PIC32 didn't exist at the time. And
anyway development / evaluation of algoritms, etc.. and the final product
are two very different things, with different requirements. It's analogous
to the software development world, i.e. you rarely have any need (or should)
optimize code when you're just trying to get a clue about algoritms. The
risk is simply that one gets fond of Arduino and such and then doesn't
develop his own system, which may be fine for small one offs or for those
products developed in VERY small scale and at high price (e.g. one client
who wants a system to do something specific), but if we go into mass market
production, then I think it's a very bad situation to have spent years on
a system which in the end will only raise your hardware and software costs,
and lower your overall experience.

As always, all tools are good, it's just that some are better at doing
certain tasks rather than others.

For educational / introduction too, for example, a system like Arduino
makes more sense.

But not to send a satellite in orbit. ;)

Anyway, just some pointless babbling from me, sorry. I just wasted $0.02 :D


>George Smith

2011\11\20@082757 by PICdude

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face
Quoting Electron <RemoveMEelectron2k4KILLspamspaminfinito.it>:

> But not to send a satellite in orbit. ;)

Oh definitely not... you'd want a Windows OS for that :)

2011\11\20@090221 by Electron

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face
At 14.27 2011.11.20, you wrote:
>Quoting Electron <electron2k4STOPspamspamspam_OUTinfinito.it>:
>
>> But not to send a satellite in orbit. ;)
>
>Oh definitely not... you'd want a Windows OS for that :)

They do already a lot of damage on Earth, maybe it's not a good idea
to send Microsoft products in space too, or it's the time that the
aliens will attack us in retaliation. :D

2011\11\20@105106 by Kerry Wentworth

flavicon
face
Electron wrote:
> OK, I got your point, but I was thinking from a mass-marketed product
> developer point of view. Having the thing "raw" IMHO is an advantage, the
> more in between the worse. It's like marrying a girl who has had thousands
> of boyfriends, it makes things easier but it's not desiderable if you have
> a plan for the future. *g*
>
>   Are you from Naples?  ;)

Kerry

2011\11\20@110536 by Electron

flavicon
face
At 16.49 2011.11.20, you wrote:
>Electron wrote:
>> OK, I got your point, but I was thinking from a mass-marketed product
>> developer point of view. Having the thing "raw" IMHO is an advantage, the
>> more in between the worse. It's like marrying a girl who has had thousands
>> of boyfriends, it makes things easier but it's not desiderable if you have
>> a plan for the future. *g*
>>
>>  
>Are you from Naples?  ;)

Wrong shoot, try again. ;)

By the way I don't think that girls from Neaples are (in)famous for being "easy". ? :P

2011\11\25@191108 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Nov 16, 2011, at 10:35 AM, Neil Cherry wrote:

> I've picked up both an Arduino (Nanode) and a couple of ChipKits.
> I'm hoping to learn a bit more about these...

I've been a bit impressed how well my ChipKit is working out as a vehicle for learning more about PIC32/MIPS.  Because, you know, I'm not spending all my time making the basic little bits works...

The ChipKit forums are rather empty, though.  One thing that Arduino has going for it is the sheer volume of stuff that happens in their forums...

BillW

2011\11\25@193429 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Nov 17, 2011, at 2:21 PM, Neil Cherry wrote:

> These products aren't meant for serious embedded system work (serious meaning needing knowledgeable engineers doing the engineering work).

Maybe.  I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference between something like Arduino and vendor-provided "assists" like the PIC32 peripheral library, or "Stellarisware" or "CMSIS" (Cortex Microcontroller Software Interface Standard), or ASF (Atmel Software Framework) or Android/WinCE/Windows/Linux as the basis for an embedded product, or JAVA Embedded or .NET Micro.

They're all attempts to hind the complexities of the bits of an embedded design that the designer is not specifically interested in dealing with.  Arduino's bar is lower, and it's open source, but...

Jack Ganssle recently called it "The Dumbing down of embedded design" (http://www.techonlineindia.com/Blogs/DesignPerspectives/11-11-24/The_dumbing_down_of_embedded_design.aspx )   4000page datasheets; yes, that's frequently more than I want to learn before I get to start something...

Of course, one of the things you can learn is that the people writing these "simplifying tools" really don't do things the way that you would do them.  I've been a bit shocked at what I see as deficiencies in the PIC32 libraries and include files and ... development environment.  As a result of playing with ChipKit...

BillW

2011\11\28@003938 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 3:10 AM, doug metzler <spamBeGonedoug.metzlerSTOPspamspamEraseMEgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Remember now that Mac also runs Windows (with Bootcamp or
virtualization solution like Parallels Desktop), similarly you can
use AVR Studio with the Arduino as well if so desired. :-)


-- Xiaofan

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