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'[EE:] data projector bulb costs'
2004\08\07@112842 by Russell McMahon

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I'd be interested in people's thoughts about the costs of lamps for "data
projectors". These cost from about $US400 to $US900 (perhaps more for very
top end models) and are typically about $600.

The lamps appear to be mercury bulbs with accompanying optics.
The prices SEEM to me to be out of all proportion to what is provided.

Has anyone any information that may indicate that the prices are in fact
justified?
Or is able to explain the complexities that cause these prices?

(The church that I am a member of has just bought a 2200 ANSI Lumen XGA LCD
projector. (Hitachi CPC385W).
Lamp life is nominally 2,000 hours. Replacement bulb cost is about $US600.)

Can you refill these yourself ? :-)      :-)      :-)      :-)      :-)




       Russell McMahon

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2004\08\07@123146 by Ben Hencke

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As you hinted to, this is the hidden cash cow for the projector industry.
I have an epson 5000xb (or similar) that blew (exploded + shattered)
the bulb at around 200-500 hours. MTBF is not a warranty! :-(

I would be interesed in hacking something together to replace the
bulb, even if it is not the same brightness. I am not about to pay
$400 for a light bulb for a $800 projector. Perhaps we can compare
notes? :-)

- Ben


On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 03:28:32 +1200, Russell McMahon
<.....apptechKILLspamspam@spam@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\08\07@123147 by Sergio Masci

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----- Original Message -----
From: Russell McMahon <EraseMEapptechspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTPARADISE.NET.NZ>
To: <PICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 4:28 PM
Subject: [EE:] data projector bulb costs


{Quote hidden}

I don't know, I've never tried :-)

Best Regards
Sergio

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2004\08\07@174549 by Russell McMahon

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> As you hinted to, this is the hidden cash cow for the projector industry.
> I have an epson 5000xb (or similar) that blew (exploded + shattered)
> the bulb at around 200-500 hours. MTBF is not a warranty! :-(
>
> I would be interesed in hacking something together to replace the
> bulb, even if it is not the same brightness. I am not about to pay
> $400 for a light bulb for a $800 projector. Perhaps we can compare
> notes? :-)


I know nothing YET. And have no immediate need. And only 1 projector which
won't be getting played with any time soon.
BUT I wonder ?

   - Are optics part of all bulbs in all cases
   - Do optics die along with bulb
   - Can shattering bulbs be prevented
   - Can bulbs be replaced with something else?
   - What are bulb characteristic that make them so dear?
   - As projectors get really old will kluged replacements be attractive?
       LCD will probably have engine die but some DLP engines
       look likely to outlast economic lives of projectors.
   - More ...


       RM

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2004\08\07@174759 by M. Adam Davis

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Russell McMahon wrote:

>Has anyone any information that may indicate that the prices are in fact
>justified?
>Or is able to explain the complexities that cause these prices?
>
>
>
Depends on your definition of 'justified'.  I suspect that several
factors contribute to the abnormally high cost:
Color, and color fade over life of bulb
Heat
Element shape
The fact that it has to be user replacable and still work well
There's no profitable market for knock offs

Since the optical path is so short, the filament has to be just the
right shape and in just the right spot to get both high brightness and
no blurring.  Ideally it would be a point source, but it isn't and so
the optics have to correct for the shape.  For this to happen, it has to
be placed in just the right spot and orientation.  As projectors get
smaller this problem is probably intensified (ha ha ha).

Secondly, they can charge that much because they can.  All they have to
do is release a new bulb type (base, filament shape, color, etc) with
each different model.  As long as there are never more than a few
million of each model then there will be no incentive for someone to
make a knock off.  We need to wait for projectors to become mainstream
comodity items before it makes sense for a supplier to start targetting
the market.  Then the manufacturers, seeking to lower total cost to
remain competitive, will start using one of only a few different bulbs
which will cycle until it is easy to get a bulb for your projector.

Hopefully your projector is DLP, since more light goes to the screen
than to heating the projector up and breaking the lamp.

I'm told that Edison used to 'refill' his bulbs with a carbon filament -
you might try that, and let us know how well it works.  ;-)

-Adam

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2004\08\07@182149 by Jason S

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From: "Russell McMahon" <spamBeGoneapptechspamBeGonespamPARADISE.NET.NZ>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 2:45 PM


> I know nothing YET. And have no immediate need. And only 1 projector which
> won't be getting played with any time soon.
> BUT I wonder ?

I've had my eye on one of these for a while as an alternative to a
projection TV.  I use my computer monitor as a TV now, so a multimedia
projector would be great for TV and game playing.

The cost of the bulb vs the bulb life makes it completely impractical for
that though.

Jason

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2004\08\07@184511 by William Chops Westfield

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On Aug 7, 2004, at 8:28 AM, Russell McMahon wrote:

> Lamp life is nominally 2,000 hours. Replacement bulb cost is about
> $US600.)
>
> Can you refill these yourself ? :-)      :-)      :-)      :-)      :-)
>
>
Hey, people fell for it with the inkjets, didn't they?

Presumably you're looking at a precision manufactured electro-optical
part that doesn't sell very many per year, so the price is "whatever
the market will bear" (for the manufacturing as well as end user.)
Say, whatever the hi-tech industry sales droids that typically use
these things spend on a new suit...  Standardization would help.
Maybe.  It'd help injets, laser printers, and copiers,  too, and I
don't see anyone jumping on THOSE bandwagons either.

2000 hours is a couple years if you're doing a couple hours of
presentation per day.  You're probably supposed to just buy a new
projector by that time.  But it's not going to replace my TV anytime
soon.

BillW

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2004\08\07@191926 by David Duffy

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William Chops Westfield wrote:

{Quote hidden}

People need to realise it's just a cost of owning a projector.
When I bought mine a few months ago to replace my aging TV,
I figured that the AU$400 a year lamp into the running costs.
You want big screen? You don't get something for nothing!
You want cheap? Keep your CRT TV for now then. :-)
David...

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2004\08\07@200816 by Robert Rolf

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Russell McMahon wrote:

>>As you hinted to, this is the hidden cash cow for the projector industry.

That it is. The bulbs are nothing more than refined versions of the
xenon bulbs the could be used in old 16mm & 35mm THEATRE projectors.
The ones for the 16mm Bell & Howell's used in Fac Medicine
were about $150 and had a 2500 hour rated life (1000w). (1980's)
But the power supply was the size of a telephone book under the
projector. 50A at 20V or so with a 10kV start pulse.

>>I have an epson 5000xb (or similar) that blew (exploded + shattered)
>>the bulb at around 200-500 hours. MTBF is not a warranty! :-(

>>I would be interesed in hacking something together to replace the
>>bulb, even if it is not the same brightness. I am not about to pay
>>$400 for a light bulb for a $800 projector. Perhaps we can compare
>>notes? :-)

Different projectors have bulb prices that have no relationship
to the cost of the projector or the light output.

OTOH, we've come a long way from where you got 35 hours life
from a typical incandescent projector bulb.

> I know nothing YET. And have no immediate need. And only 1 projector which
> won't be getting played with any time soon.
> BUT I wonder ?
>
>     - Are optics part of all bulbs in all cases

No, but it has become common in order to get the size down.
This customization has led to the higher bulb costs.

It is heartening to see that many companies are using
basically the same lamps.
http://www.projectorzone.com/replam.html

>     - Do optics die along with bulb

Only if the bulb explodes scratching or breaking optics.

>     - Can shattering bulbs be prevented

Proper cooling cycles.
Thermal and mechanical shock is deadly...

>     - Can bulbs be replaced with something else?

Like what exactly? Candles?
Presumably you could fit a suitable halogen bulb in to what
was left of your blown bulb optics, with greatly reduced
brightness. Better than nothing.

>     - What are bulb characteristic that make them so dear?

OEM so they can charge whatever they want and can get away with.
Given that all bulbs have about the same life, why would manufacturers
sell their lamps cheaper than their competitors?
They'd only be reducing their ongoing revenue stream.
Bulb life could be longer but, where's the profit in that?

>     - As projectors get really old will kluged replacements be attractive?

Probably.
But would you pay twice as much to have a bulb that lasted
4 times longer?  Do you think the manufacturers would LET you
have that bulb made? (Think GO video and the way their
DVD-VCR copier was suppressed by hollywood/Sony).

>         LCD will probably have engine die but some DLP engines
>         look likely to outlast economic lives of projectors.

Yep.
Looks like there might be a niche market for 3rd party bulbs
or adapter kits that take more common or cheaper bulbs.

I'd be curious to see close up pictures of some of these
pricey bulbs. It can't be THAT hard to put two electrodes
into a quartz envelope and fill it with gas.

Maybe there is some sort of exclusive patent licensing required.

Robert

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2004\08\07@211157 by William Chops Westfield

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On Aug 7, 2004, at 4:53 PM, Robert Rolf wrote:

> The bulbs are nothing more than refined versions of the
> xenon bulbs the could be used in old 16mm & 35mm THEATRE projectors.

The prices seem to be more or less consistent with the short-arc xenon
bulbs used in medical and industrial applications.  Ie:
    http://www.topbulb.com/find/prod_list.asp?intSubCategory=487

On the other hand, being cost competitive with medical instrumentation
is hardly something to brag about...

 :-)
BillW

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2004\08\07@222534 by Mike105105

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www.diyaudio.com has a Video section that is mostly devoted to DIY
projectors.  People are doing some awsome stuff with cheap materials.
They have pretty much figured what works for light and what doesnt,
although they keep trying new things...like LED's.



Mike

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2004\08\08@024314 by Nigel Duckworth

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Russell McMahon wrote;

>     - Can shattering bulbs be prevented
What about modifying your projector to extend the life of the OEM bulb?
Pre-heating the filament, soft starting or at least switching on at
zero-crossing might
help, assuming that's not done already. Also, instructions to the user not
to move the projector until it's cooled?

Back in the nineties I was using a solenoid valve supplier and his valves
were used by a light bulb manufacturer in the UK. During a site visit he got
talking to one of their designers and asked why it wasn't possible to make a
longer lasting light bulb? "No problem" (or words to that effect) he was
told, the trick is designing a bulb that will fail between x and y thousand
hours!

Nigel Duckworth





{Original Message removed}

2004\08\08@100753 by Russell McMahon

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> Hopefully your projector is DLP, since more light goes to the screen
> than to heating the projector up and breaking the lamp.

No. It's LCD. That was one of the decisions I made during purchasing. There
are pros and cons both way. If I ever buy one personally for home use it
will probably be a DLP.

I don't intend to play with the bulb in this projector. I accept bulb cost
as part of the cost of ownership. I was interested in people's comments. I
can envisage buying an old DLP projector in due course and playing. By the
time LCDs get down to playing level they will probably have dead engines as
well as lamps. While TI's recent comparative tests were misleading hype they
do highlight real problems with LCD longevity. These won't hurt most
commercial applications but wll probably leave the ancient second hand
market to the DLPs.

> I'm told that Edison used to 'refill' his bulbs with a carbon filament -
> you might try that, and let us know how well it works.  ;-)

Poorly for sure.
Carbon is an excellent light bulb material EXCEPT that it has a negative
temperature coefficient of resistance, unlike tungsten. This means that
carbon filaments tend to draw more power the more power they draw.
Interestingly, Tungsten is considered to be the ONLY practical alternative
material. Carbon is in some ways superior apart from the NTC.

Use of 'modern" electronic controls may well make carbon an attractive
filament material. Constant current or better - you could probably hold it
at constant operating point with suitable care.



       Russell McMahon

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2004\08\08@102719 by Olin Lathrop

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Nigel Duckworth wrote:
> During a
> site visit he got talking to one of their designers and asked why it
> wasn't possible to make a longer lasting light bulb? "No problem" (or
> words to that effect) he was told, the trick is designing a bulb that
> will fail between x and y thousand hours!

No problem if you don't care about the tradeoff with other parameters.  You
can greatly extend the life of an ordinary bulb yourself just by running it
at 10% lower voltage.  However, this also greatly decreases the already
abismal efficiency of these bulbs.  It will be something like 95% heater 5%
visible light emitter (I'm probably being generous), and the light will be
strongly colored towards the red end of the spectrum.

All this is due to basic physics where materials tend to vaporize or
sublimate at temperatures required for the bulk of black body radiation to
be in the visible range.  A bulb at such temperature would be quite
efficient and look "white", but so far we know of no material that would
permit it to have a commercially acceptable lifetime.


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2004\08\08@104208 by Jake Anderson

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mechanically carbon also is somewhat lacking I would imagine
IE its very brittle. and generally for bulbs you want
high surface area low volume which implies thin materials

otherwise it seems like an ideal material, apparently
the colour temperature used for theater illuminaiton is
3200k which is well within carbons "solid" zone i believe.


> {Original Message removed}

2004\08\08@111311 by Robert Rolf

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Jake Anderson wrote:
> mechanically carbon also is somewhat lacking I would imagine
> IE its very brittle. and generally for bulbs you want
> high surface area low volume which implies thin materials
>
> otherwise it seems like an ideal material, apparently
> the colour temperature used for theater illuminaiton is
> 3200k which is well within carbons "solid" zone i believe.

Most older theatre projectors (and very much in use today)
use carbon arc light sources. Modern theatres use xenon bulbs.

Ask your local projectionist if you can have the 'stubs'
from the projector arc. You can then have some fun making
your own carbon arc lamp (120V AC and series ballast 1500W
space heater to limit current).
Wear eye protection. The arc produces LOTS of UV.

http://members.misty.com/don/carbarc.html

Old xenon bulbs are also available for the asking.
The get retired when they age because the arc starts
jumping around a bit, causing undesirable 'flicker'
and color shift on screen.

Robert

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2004\08\09@052928 by Nigel Orr

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> I don't intend to play with the bulb in this projector. I
> accept bulb cost
> as part of the cost of ownership. I was interested in
> people's comments.

One other point that no-one else has raised:

I have an Epson EMP-600 (IIRC) LCD projector.  It's a few years old and has
a minor fault (slight green fringing, a fault in the digital signal
handling, can't fix it but that's why I got it for free!!).

I got the service manual when I was trying to fix it, which has an
interesting description of the automatic bulb-killer!  When you insert a
new bulb, the projector blows a fusible link in the bulb, and starts a
run-time clock.  When the clock gets to X hours, a warning light
illuminates on the control panel.  When it gets to Y hours, the bulb is not
switched on.

Presumably from other comments, this is supposed to stop the bulb from
exploding and damaging the optics.  The cynical might suggest it's also to
stop the bulb from working too long and damaging the company's bottom line.

The service manual also details the spec of the fusible link and where it
is located in the bulb assembly... you can probably guess what I'll be
trying when the timer runs out- I'll take a chance on bulb explosions, it
wouldn't be _too_ terrible if I need to replace it...

[The fault is on the optics board, I'm suspecting a dried out cap, but
there are a LOT of them on it and I don't have a good way of incircuit
testing- suggestions welcome!.
The optics board is calibrated for the optics unit, so you have to replace
both at the same time (seriously expensive!), and it's not that irritating
when watching films or playing on the games console- the original user
needed it for Powerpoint, for which it is now useless!]

Nigel

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2004\08\09@061329 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> [The fault is on the optics board, I'm suspecting a dried out cap, but
> there are a LOT of them on it and I don't have a good way of incircuit
> testing- suggestions welcome!.

Elektor/elektuur did have an in-circuit elco tester some time ago. IIRC
it measured the DC series impedance of the elco.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\08\09@070423 by Russell McMahon

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> [The fault is on the optics board, I'm suspecting a dried out cap, but
> there are a LOT of them on it and I don't have a good way of incircuit
> testing- suggestions welcome!.

Ideally you want an ESR tester.

A possible alternative MAY BE:
I haven't tried this!

Two test probes A & B

- Produce square wave at eg 1 kHz or so.
- Feed via small resistor to probe A.
- Connect probe A to oscilloscope input.
- Probe B connects to ground of square wave generator and scope ground.

Apply probe A to one side of cap and probe B to other side.
The amount the signal rises by with the square wave will be proportional to
the resistance at the test point.
Size of resistor in line 2 above will affect rise per ESR.
Adjusting this resistor and scope scale SHOULD give you a visual ESR test.



       RM

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2004\08\16@102405 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Since the optical path is so short, the filament
>has to be just the right shape and in just the
>right spot to get both high brightness and no
>blurring.  Ideally it would be a point source,
>but it isn't and so the optics have to correct for
>the shape.  For this to happen, it has to be placed
>in just the right spot and orientation.  As
>projectors get smaller this problem is probably
>intensified (ha ha ha).

bearing in mind that all of these problems have been solved for the likes of
8mm movie projectors, the quoted costs for these bulbs seem rather high.
About the only thing I can see that might make things awkward compared to
the movie projectors might be heat output.

Look forward to Russell's saga on how he replaces the bulb with a high
output LED when it blows up :)))))

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2004\08\16@103647 by Amaury Jacquot

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Alan B. Pearce wrote:
> bearing in mind that all of these problems have been solved for the likes of
> 8mm movie projectors, the quoted costs for these bulbs seem rather high.
> About the only thing I can see that might make things awkward compared to
> the movie projectors might be heat output.
>
> Look forward to Russell's saga on how he replaces the bulb with a high
> output LED when it blows up :)))))

to me it looks like the projector manufacturers are applying the same
kind of economics as they are doing with inkjet printers...
cheap device, expensive cartridges...

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2004\08\16@110552 by Russell McMahon

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> Look forward to Russell's saga on how he replaces the bulb with a high
> output LED when it blows up :)))))

The way LEDs are going that may just about be viable by the end of this
bulb's life - I hope :-)

       RM

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2004\08\16@115002 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 04:37 PM 8/16/2004 +0200, you wrote:
>Alan B. Pearce wrote:
>>bearing in mind that all of these problems have been solved for the likes of
>>8mm movie projectors, the quoted costs for these bulbs seem rather high.
>>About the only thing I can see that might make things awkward compared to
>>the movie projectors might be heat output.
>>
>>Look forward to Russell's saga on how he replaces the bulb with a high
>>output LED when it blows up :)))))
>
>to me it looks like the projector manufacturers are applying the same
>kind of economics as they are doing with inkjet printers...
>cheap device, expensive cartridges...

You said it, bro. And color laser printers. C$700-1000 for the printer,
C$800 for a set of cartridges, and ones supplied with the new printer
are "starter" cartridges with much less than full capacity.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
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2004\08\17@022954 by Nate Duehr

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On Monday 16 August 2004 10:00, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

> You said it, bro. And color laser printers. C$700-1000 for the printer,
> C$800 for a set of cartridges, and ones supplied with the new printer
> are "starter" cartridges with much less than full capacity.

Of course, some of the "new" cartridges aren't full either.  The latest slimy
version of this are the "economy" cartridges.  Not even half full.

And some manufacturers have put electronics into the cartridges and storage
(flash?) that will force you to change the cartridge after a certain number
of print cycles whether there's ink in them or not, stopping people from
re-inking the cartridges themselves.

Quite sleazy.

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2004\08\19@123222 by Martin McCormick

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       I worked as an electronics technician with our university's
Audio Visual Center during most of the eighties.  We fixed all kinds
of projectors except for 35-MM movie types like you'd find in a
regular theater.  The prices of most projector bulbs were breathtaking
to say the least.  I remember the xenon arc lamps we used in 16-MM
projectors that were for use in larger auditoriums or smaller
theaters.  They were about the size of a flashlight bulb, but mounted
in a reflector that, if I recall correctly, was kind of squarish.
There were two leads that looked just like spark plug wires that ran
to the lamp power supply output.

       Those bulbs were rated for 80 hours of life and cost $100 a
piece in the early 1980's.

       I remember some of the bulbs had rather large filaments and
weren't even close to a point source but there would be one or more
"condenser" lenses that took care of this problem.

       The Kodak  slide projectors had a couple of methods for
producing what appeared to be a point source of light.

       The older ones had a large bulb which shown in to three
lenses.  The closest to the bulb was a small double convex lens like
a magnifying glass.  Next to that was a heat filter which was a
greenish disk of glass about the size of a small coaster which had no
refractional characteristics at all.  If it wasn't there, you could
still see the slide but for only about 2 seconds until it melted.:-)

       The third lens was another double convex, but one side was
more convex than the other and it only worked properly if the more
convex side faced the heat lens.

       The slide, itself was next in the path and then the big
adjustable lens that fits in to the front of the projector.

       The newer Kodaks had a quartz bulb that was part of a
reflector.  It always reminded me of the end of a flashlight.  That
bulb shown against a front-surface mirror which was at a 45-degree
angle between the lamp and the heat lens or filter.  The last
condenser lens before the slide was still there.

       I believe the bulbs for those systems were in the $20-$50
range.  I am kind of surprised this day and age that the projector
bulbs for LCD television projectors are so darned expensive.  I would
think that the optics of a slide projector would be very similar to
that of an LCD projector.

       One would think that moderately-priced projector bulbs similar
to what are used in slide projectors or maybe 16-MM film projectors
would suffice.  Obviously not.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
OSU Information Technology Division Network Operations Group

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2004\08\19@220019 by M. Adam Davis

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In LCD projecters nearly 50% of the light is lost since the pixels are
so small, and the spaces between them for wires so large, and an on
segment never transmits 100% of the light anyway.

DLP projecters are much better, but IIRC they still lose 10-30% of the
light due to spaces between the mirrors.

So a slide and projector light bulb can be 1/3 to 1/2 as bright to give
the same picture brightness as a modern electronic projector.

Given that those old bulbs that cost so much were rated to last hundreds
of hours, and todays bulbs are brighter and run for thousands of hours,
I can understand the price difference.  If they were really gouging us,
SXGA projectors would only cost $200, and come with a  half life bulb to
start.  ;-)

-Adam

Martin McCormick wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2004\08\22@134755 by hilip Stortz

picon face
you might try <bulbtronics.com> and similar lamp suppliers.  they are
pretty good at crossing what seem to be odd lamps and are usually much
cheaper than the equipment manufacturer and sometimes cheaper than other
direct sources.  if it is totally custom, you're probably stuck.

Russell McMahon wrote:
>
> I'd be interested in people's thoughts about the costs of lamps for "data
> projectors". These cost from about $US400 to $US900 (perhaps more for very
> top end models) and are typically about $600.
>
> The lamps appear to be mercury bulbs with accompanying optics.
> The prices SEEM to me to be out of all proportion to what is provided.
--------

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2004\08\22@134755 by hilip Stortz

picon face
so would i!  i'd think you'd be able to use a short arc lamp and
appropriate power supply.  those things are incredibly bright and not
nearly as expensive as the "original" bulbs seem to be.  alternative
optics shouldn't be too hard either.

Robert Rolf wrote:
--------
> I'd be curious to see close up pictures of some of these
> pricey bulbs. It can't be THAT hard to put two electrodes
> into a quartz envelope and fill it with gas.
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2004\08\23@102432 by M. Adam Davis

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I just saw some nice pictures the other day.  Thought about posting them
to the list, but didn't...

graphics.samsclub.com/images/products/0001034384798_L4.jpg
Is a pretty picture of the replacement bulb for an Epson Powerlite S1+
($900).  The bulb costs $160.
and
graphics.samsclub.com/images/products/0079721253291_L4.jpg
Which looks like a plastic box with wires on one end, lens on the other,
and vents on the side.  Not nearly as interesting as the previous one.
This goes to an Infocus Screenplay 4800 ($1088) and costs $276.

If the links don't work then go to http://www.samsclub.com and search
for projectors.

-Adam

Philip Stortz wrote:

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2004\08\23@170651 by Jason S

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Do you know a good way to find replacement bulbs for a specific projector?
Costco has the Sharp PG-B10S on sale for $750, which seems like an excellent
price, but they don't sell the bulb and I haven't been able to find anyone
who does.  Even if it is in the $150 range like the ones you listed, I still
don't know if it's worth getting.

Jason

From: "M. Adam Davis" <TakeThisOuTadampic.....spamTakeThisOuTUBASICS.COM>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 7:24 AM


> I just saw some nice pictures the other day.  Thought about posting them
> to the list, but didn't...
>
> graphics.samsclub.com/images/products/0001034384798_L4.jpg
> Is a pretty picture of the replacement bulb for an Epson Powerlite S1+
> ($900).  The bulb costs $160.

...

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2004\08\23@200414 by M. Adam Davis

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The best method I know is to google for them:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Sharp%20PG-B10S%20bulb

Of course, if it's a recently introduced projector then few places will
have it.  You can always find a sharp electronics dealer or authorized
repair shop and they'll give you quotes.

-Adam

Jason S wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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