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'[EE:] Vehicular remote starting (was: [EE]: Intere'
2004\01\01@063646 by Tim ODriscoll

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This remote-starting puzzles me.. When I start my car, I know when to
stop turning the starter motor because of the change in sound when the
engine is running, but how does one of these fancy alarms know?

Cheers,

Tim

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2004\01\01@083115 by Stuart Meier

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> This remote-starting puzzles me.. When I start my car, I know when to
> stop turning the starter motor because of the change in sound when the
> engine is running, but how does one of these fancy alarms know?

Engine speed?

Stuart
{Original Message removed}

2004\01\01@090719 by Tim ODriscoll

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On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Stuart Meier wrote:
> > This remote-starting puzzles me.. When I start my car, I know when to
> > stop turning the starter motor because of the change in sound when the
> > engine is running, but how does one of these fancy alarms know?
>
> Engine speed?

So are you limited to cars with an engine tachometer? My old diesel
doesn't have one...

Tim

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2004\01\01@094736 by Olin Lathrop

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Tim ODriscoll wrote:
> This remote-starting puzzles me.. When I start my car, I know when to
> stop turning the starter motor because of the change in sound when the
> engine is running, but how does one of these fancy alarms know?

Engine speed maybe?  This is easily measured from the tachometer pulses or
spark pulses if necessary.


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2004\01\01@103621 by Darrell Wyatt

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{Quote hidden}

*************************************************

By monitoring the current draw on the starter...perhaps...
As for vehicles equipped with a manual transmission, you
would need to leave it in neutral, and use the parking brake -

D.

Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity.

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2004\01\01@104451 by Jake Anderson

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i thaught the point of leaving it in gear was for when the park brake broke
or failed. Happened to me, i hadnt put it on quite hard enough and the car
rolled back over a minute or two to be caught by the gears (big hill) and
friends have had cables break when the car heat cycled (+40 to - 10C air
temp so you can imagine inside the damn thing)

> {Original Message removed}

2004\01\01@111226 by Stuart Meier

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> So are you limited to cars with an engine tachometer? My old diesel
> doesn't have one...

Nope. Most alternators have a secondary unregulated output which has a frequency
proportional to engine speed. In fact I recall a lot of old cars have
sufficiently poor regulation that you can filter out a signal which is dependant
on engine speed from the supply itself.

Stuart

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2004\01\01@123021 by Herbert Graf

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> This remote-starting puzzles me.. When I start my car, I know when to
> stop turning the starter motor because of the change in sound when the
> engine is running, but how does one of these fancy alarms know?

       My guess would be RPM, a starter motor only turns an engine at perhaps 3 or
400 RPM, a motor that's running runs roughly twice that at warm idle.

A little sidenote/rant: I wish they would ban car starters.

They are bad for the environment (an idling car takes much longer to warm up
then a driven car, and the emission systems don't kick in until the car is
warmed up to a certain point), they are horrible for your engine (it's a
well known fact that warming up your car by idling is about the most
destructive you can get when it comes to your engine) and are a danger (say
the dog picks up the remote...).

Frankly, if your car is too cold for you to drive away with you are
underdressed, just imagine what would happen to you if you were unfortunate
enough to drive off a ridge or something and have to survive in your car for
a day before help arrived? I always dress in such a way that I could survive
comfortably in the elements should something happen to my "warm" car.

Personally my cars will NEVER see remote starters, and I usually drive away
30 seconds (at the most) after starting. TTYL

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2004\01\01@123643 by Tim ODriscoll

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On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Herbert Graf wrote:
> A little sidenote/rant: I wish they would ban car starters.
>
> Personally my cars will NEVER see remote starters, and I usually drive away
> 30 seconds (at the most) after starting. TTYL

But it would be cool to have it start as you walked up to it :)

Tim

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2004\01\01@131246 by Denny Esterline

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> Frankly, if your car is too cold for you to drive away with you are
> underdressed, just imagine what would happen to you if you were
unfortunate
> enough to drive off a ridge or something and have to survive in your car
for
> a day before help arrived? I always dress in such a way that I could
survive
> comfortably in the elements should something happen to my "warm" car.
>
> Personally my cars will NEVER see remote starters, and I usually drive
away
> 30 seconds (at the most) after starting. TTYL
>

Here in Michigan it is illegal to leave a running car unattended, and
people are getting fined for using remote car starters, but that doesn't
stop places from selling them.

The problem I see with them is the idiots designing and installing them.

You ever here of SKIM? Stands for Security Key Immobilized Module. Factory
installed high end theft prevention on Chrysler cars, uses a coded RF tag
in the head of the key. Prevents starting unless the computer can
communicate with the key tag.

Right about now I can here you all thinking, "how do remote starters work
with that?". Simple, they cut off the head of your key and zip tie it in
the steering column. Yes, the $3000 option I bought to prevent my car from
being stolen is rendered useless when I install a $99 remote starter. And
that's when it works right.

And have you ever looked at one of their installs? It's like they can't
afford wire cutters. 10 foot of slack wadded up and stuffed under the dash,
all falls out on your feet about a week later.

</end rant>
-Denny

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2004\01\01@134403 by Olin Lathrop

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Jake Anderson wrote:
> i thaught the point of leaving it in gear was for when the park brake
> broke or failed. Happened to me, i hadnt put it on quite hard enough
> and the car rolled back over a minute or two to be caught by the
> gears (big hill) and friends have had cables break when the car heat
> cycled (+40 to - 10C air temp so you can imagine inside the damn
> thing)

Yes, but the original discussion was about an automatic starter that starts
the car occasionally to make sure the battery stays charged, or a minute
before you get out on a cold morning.  Unless this automatic starter also
knowns how to shift into neutral, a manual transmission would need to be
left in neutral for it to work.

Either way this sounds like a bad idea for a manual transmission car.


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2004\01\01@135229 by Denny Esterline

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Shops around here will NOT install them on cars with manual transmissions.


> Jake Anderson wrote:
> > i thaught the point of leaving it in gear was for when the park brake
> > broke or failed. Happened to me, i hadnt put it on quite hard enough
> > and the car rolled back over a minute or two to be caught by the
> > gears (big hill) and friends have had cables break when the car heat
> > cycled (+40 to - 10C air temp so you can imagine inside the damn
> > thing)
>
> Yes, but the original discussion was about an automatic starter that
starts
> the car occasionally to make sure the battery stays charged, or a minute
> before you get out on a cold morning.  Unless this automatic starter also
> knowns how to shift into neutral, a manual transmission would need to be
> left in neutral for it to work.
>
> Either way this sounds like a bad idea for a manual transmission car.
>
>

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2004\01\01@135644 by Herbert Graf

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> On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Stuart Meier wrote:
> > > This remote-starting puzzles me.. When I start my car, I know when to
> > > stop turning the starter motor because of the change in sound when the
> > > engine is running, but how does one of these fancy alarms know?
> >
> > Engine speed?
>
> So are you limited to cars with an engine tachometer? My old diesel
> doesn't have one...

       Pretty much. Unless you can figure out a way to get a tach signal from
somewhere (say an optical sensor pointed at a crankshaft or something). TTYL

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2004\01\01@135644 by Olin Lathrop

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Herbert Graf wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Very well put.  They did manage to outlaw those "instant on" TVs from 30
years ago that kept the tube fillaments warm all the time.  Maybe there is
hope for remote starters too.

It's an all around good idea to keep some emergency clothes and a blanket in
the trunk all year around.  I've always got at least a wool sweater, wind
breaker, gloves, hat, and a space blanket in the trunk, more this time of
year.


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2004\01\01@135853 by Herbert Graf

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> since you are ment to leave your car in gear (in a manual)
> can you put auto's in park when the engine is running? (dont drive
> autos and dont like driving them much either)
> how do all these engine runny when you arent in the car type things
> deal with that?

       I would assume users of these devices on standard transmission vehicles
would have to leave their cars in neutral. TTYL

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2004\01\01@140305 by Herbert Graf

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> On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Herbert Graf wrote:
> > A little sidenote/rant: I wish they would ban car starters.
> >
> > Personally my cars will NEVER see remote starters, and I
> usually drive away
> > 30 seconds (at the most) after starting. TTYL
>
> But it would be cool to have it start as you walked up to it :)

       I don't know, I don't like things that are that automated, what about me
walking up to the car and NOT wanting it to start? What happens when your
car gets to be older and things start getting cranky? No thanks. TTYL

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2004\01\01@140514 by Herbert Graf

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{Quote hidden}

       I recently bought a new car stereo and someone asked me whether I was
installing it myself or having someone install it. I can't remember the
exact words I used, but it was something like: "I will never let those
butchers touch my car". Many stereo/remote starter installers I have seen
work have NO idea what they are doing, and it surprises me that they ever
get it right.

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2004\01\01@144735 by John Ferrell

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Some day if you are lucky, you may get old enough feel the threat of weather
extremes. I use the remote start more in the summer than in the winter. When
the steering wheel is too hot to touch, it seems a good idea to cool things
down a bit before I drive it. By the same token, the cell phone in my pocket
provides a measure of freedom I would not otherwise have.

In my more reckless youth, I was comfortable with a wool sweater down to
Zero F. on a sunshiney day. Now I put on a snow suit to walk the dogs in the
woods below 30 degrees F. And, I am not really that old... I think.

You missed the real hazard though. There should never be an occaision where
the vehical could start in a closed garage, especially an attached one. Or ,
during maintenance.

John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
johnferrellSTOPspamspamspam_OUTearthlink.net
http://DixieNC.US
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"

{Original Message removed}

2004\01\01@145737 by John Ferrell

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The Bulldog brand that I have is simply a timed crank. My Ford van starts
every time on the minimum time setting. If it misses, it is supposed to
pause and then retry twice before giving up. There is an optional connection
to the distributor (I think) to sense engine running condition for hard
starting vehicles. I never needed to attach it .

I believe there are special provisions for diesel operation. It is not
supposed to be installed on manual transmissions or non-fuel injection
vehicles. I normally start the van as I walk towards it in the parking lot.
I feel that a few extra seconds of oil pressure before I drive away cannot
hurt the engine.

The only wire that was added through the firewall was for the siren. I have
set the siren off enough that the dogs totally ignore it now.

BTW, it is smart enough to know not to crank if it is already running.

John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
spamBeGonejohnferrellSTOPspamspamEraseMEearthlink.net
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"My Competition is Not My Enemy"

{Original Message removed}

2004\01\01@150400 by John Ferrell

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I leave the van running a lot in the summer time with the air conditioner
running. That is because I rarely go anywhere without two large dogs and
relying on window venilation is out of the question. Don't the K9 cops leave
their dogs in their cars, locked up but running in the summer there?
John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
KILLspamjohnferrellspamBeGonespamearthlink.net
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NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"

{Original Message removed}

2004\01\01@153132 by Olin Lathrop

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John Ferrell wrote:
> I feel that a few extra seconds of oil pressure before I
> drive away cannot hurt the engine.

True, but there are a lot simpler ways to get that, like start the car then
put the seat belt on.  Even if you just had to wait an extra 3 seconds, it
hardly sounds like a problem worth a gizmo like an external starter with its
various associated problems.


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2004\01\01@153341 by Olin Lathrop

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John Ferrell wrote:
> I leave the van running a lot in the summer time with the air
> conditioner running. That is because I rarely go anywhere without two
> large dogs and relying on window venilation is out of the question.

And what happens to the dogs if the engine dies or runs out of gas while
you're not there?


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2004\01\01@155451 by Robert Rolf

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Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
> John Ferrell wrote:
> > I leave the van running a lot in the summer time with the air
> > conditioner running. That is because I rarely go anywhere without two
> > large dogs and relying on window venilation is out of the question.
>
> And what happens to the dogs if the engine dies or runs out of gas while
> you're not there?

They die, as happened here to two police dogs when the A/C quit while
their handler was busy inside a building on a call. Heat stroke took all
of 10 minutes to kill them.

A local car audio company 'invented' a temperature monitor that
fires off the car alarm if the cab temperature gets too high with the
engine running. $150.00 IIRC. You could do the same with one of those
gamer 'Volcano' CPU temperature monitor/alarms that sell for $30C at any
computer store.


Robert

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2004\01\01@173437 by John Ferrell

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I worry a lot about that...

John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
.....johnferrellspam_OUTspamearthlink.net
http://DixieNC.US
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"

{Original Message removed}

2004\01\01@174057 by John Ferrell
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Now there is a good idea. I will look into it.

It must really sound absurd to people who don't have animals but one of my
life long dreams has been to get really close to a dog. Why two of them?
Because Shadow (70 pounds of Black Lab) fell in love at first sight with
Bear (110 pounds mostly yellow Lab).

Fortunately, the world seems to look favorably on an old man with a couple
of dogs...


John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
TakeThisOuTjohnferrell.....spamTakeThisOuTearthlink.net
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NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"

{Original Message removed}

2004\01\01@180208 by Rick C.

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Last year I had an XM radio installed in my Bronco and a Meyer snow blade
installed the same week. I noticed the 4WD light was always lit and I couldn't
get it in and out of 4WD. I took it back to Circuit City blaming them for messing
up something in my dash. They checked everything out and found no problem. A week
later I decided to dig into the problem myself. I found that when the snow blade
installer mounted the control joystick on the dash, they used two self threading
screws that were three inches long and drilled right into the auto wiring
harness. A good thing it didn't do any real damage.
Rick

Herbert Graf wrote:

> >
> > The problem I see with them is the idiots designing and installing them.
> >
> >        I recently bought a new car stereo and someone asked me whether I was
> installing it myself or having someone install it. I can't remember the
> exact words I used, but it was something like: "I will never let those
> butchers touch my car". Many stereo/remote starter installers I have seen
> work have NO idea what they are doing, and it surprises me that they ever
> get it right.

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2004\01\01@222744 by Picdude

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From the alternator/charging system.  Look at that ALT/CHG dashboard light -- one side is connected to +12V, and the other to the alternator output.  As soon as the alternator starts putting out enough voltage (the engine is running), then both sides of the alternator has ~ 12V, and the light goes out.  If you've ever had an engine stall, you'll probably have noticed the ALT/CHG light come on before you even realized that the engine stopped.

Cheers,
-Neil.



On Thursday 01 January 2004 05:35 am, Tim ODriscoll scribbled:
> This remote-starting puzzles me.. When I start my car, I know when to
> stop turning the starter motor because of the change in sound when the
> engine is running, but how does one of these fancy alarms know?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tim

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2004\01\01@223157 by Picdude

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On Thursday 01 January 2004 12:43 pm, Olin Lathrop scribbled:
>
> Yes, but the original discussion was about an automatic starter that starts
> the car occasionally to make sure the battery stays charged, ...

I really doubt you'll get the battery to charge at idle RPM.  Is this device going to rev the engine up to a few thousand RPM and hold it there?

> ... or a minute
> before you get out on a cold morning.  Unless this automatic starter also
> knowns how to shift into neutral, a manual transmission would need to be
> left in neutral for it to work.
>
> Either way this sounds like a bad idea for a manual transmission car.
>

I second that ... bad, bad idea.

Cheers,
-Neil.

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2004\01\01@230700 by David VanHorn

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At 09:25 PM 1/1/2004 -0600, Picdude wrote:

>From the alternator/charging system.  Look at that ALT/CHG dashboard light --
>one side is connected to +12V, and the other to the alternator output.  As
>soon as the alternator starts putting out enough voltage (the engine is
>running), then both sides of the alternator has ~ 12V, and the light goes
>out.  If you've ever had an engine stall, you'll probably have noticed the
>ALT/CHG light come on before you even realized that the engine stopped.

That dosen't make any sense.
+12V IS the alternator output.

I've seen them driven from the voltage regulator, when there's an external reg.

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2004\01\01@230702 by David VanHorn

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At 09:29 PM 1/1/2004 -0600, Picdude wrote:

>On Thursday 01 January 2004 12:43 pm, Olin Lathrop scribbled:
>>
>> Yes, but the original discussion was about an automatic starter that starts
>> the car occasionally to make sure the battery stays charged, ...
>
>I really doubt you'll get the battery to charge at idle RPM.  Is this device
>going to rev the engine up to a few thousand RPM and hold it there?

Modern alternator vehicles do. Very definitely.

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2004\01\02@044113 by John Ward

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Hi all,

the 3 phase output windings of an alternator are separated from the battery
via a diode bridge ( 3 phase rectification). A half wave rectified output is
supplied as well for the regulator at the back end to indicate alternator
activity. To supply some of the current drive requirements of the regulator
during alternator start up, there is a charge lamp which is connected to the
positive of the battery and also to this "monitoring" junction so that it can
serve 2 purposes:
1) indicate charge failure, say when the armature is open circuit and there is
no charge voltage coming out of the alternator or many others which i'm sure
you'll find out about pretty soon, once its come on ;)
2) the lamp supplies the alternator charge circuitry with "standby" current so
that it can excite the armatures magnetic field so that once the engine
turns, it can start generating current (its a current device, the voltage is
a result of the current flowing).

once the alternator is turning, it pretty much self-powers its regulator and
provides output. Very nice toy indeed :)



On Friday 02 January 2004 06:06, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\01\02@044736 by John Ward

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I have a 95 VW Jetta, 1.8.
Its alternator is a bosch with 95A output capability and quite hapily has
output of 14.2V at idle ( roughly 850 rpm )
This has been used previously to jumpstart a car without having to rev at all.
All you hear is the engine compensator cut in to keep the car idling.

I do recall the older ( 70's etc) VW's having a generator ( DC device) which
needed to be revved to keep output high and would have the charge light
coming on at idle.

On Friday 02 January 2004 06:06, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\01\02@112341 by David VanHorn

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> A half wave rectified output is
>supplied as well for the regulator at the back end to indicate alternator
>activity.

I've never seen this in an automotive alternator.

Field, and output is the most I've seen, on cars from the 70's to today.

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2004\01\02@172059 by p.cousens

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With few exceptions modern car alternators have either 6 or 9 diodes
connected to thier output windings
The 9 type most certainly do use the three extra smaller diodes (half
wave) to power the regulator
It is also connected to the charging lamp on the dash, this lamp also
suplies the initial voltage to excite the
Alternator before the 3 diodes take over.

So you must look harder



{Original Message removed}

2004\01\03@062558 by John Ward

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dont be so argumentative, take the information for what it is.
Its internal

J
On Friday 02 January 2004 18:22, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\01\06@082325 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>>I really doubt you'll get the battery to charge at idle RPM.
>>Is this device going to rev the engine up to a few thousand
>>RPM and hold it there?
>
>Modern alternator vehicles do. Very definitely.

Well motor vehicle alternators always have done this, not just modern ones.
This was always touted as an advantage of the alternator over the generator
when alternators first became readily available for motor vehicles. This is
on top of the other low maintenance advantages of course.

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