>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jason S [@spam@picKILLspamCANADASPEAKS.COM]
>Sent: 20 June 2004 06:25
>To: KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [EE:] Typical Embedded work requirments (Was:
>Looking for work)
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David VanHorn" <RemoveMEdvanhornTakeThisOuTCEDAR.NET>
>Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 5:44 PM
>
>> What's a "non-engineer"?  I've always considered myself an
>engineer by
>trade.
>
>An Engineer is someone who has received an accredited
>Engineering degree. They belong to a certification
>organization that gives them the title "Professional
>Engineer".  To get an accredited degree, there are a lot of
>hoops to jump through involving ethics as well as technical knowledge.
>
>> Liability doesn't disappear, no matter who does the work.
>
>A hospital employing someone without a doctor's license to do
>medical work has a huge amount of liability.  It is the same
>when you hire a non-engineer.  The engineer's license is
>comparable to a medical license.
>
>Same goes for lawyers, electricians, and a lot of other jobs.
>
>I have a Computer Science degree, and when I was doing an
>internship, I used the title "Software Engineer".  My job
>consillor from school was a P.Eng, and said that I could get
>in a lot of legal trouble for using that title.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Spehro Pefhany [TakeThisOuTspeffEraseMEspam_OUTINTERLOG.COM]
>Sent: 20 June 2004 23:54
>To: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [EE:] Typical Embedded work requirments (Was:
>Looking for work)
>
>
>At 04:02 PM 6/20/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>> >
>> >> I have a Computer Science degree, and when I was doing an
>> >> internship,
>> I used
>> >> the title "Software Engineer".  My job consillor from
>school was a
>> >> P.Eng, and said that I could get in a lot of legal trouble for
>> >> using that title.
>> >
>> >> Jason
>> >
>> >You should have told your counselor that he could get into trouble
>> >for
>> giving
>> >legal advice without being a lawyer.
>>
>>I think for civil engineering, (dams and bridges) that's true.
>
>In Ontario it's true in general. I have an engineering degree
>from an Ivy league class school but don't use the Engineer
>title because I have not bothered to go through the hassles
>and pay the regular fees for a P. Eng (more or less equivalent
>to US P.E.)
>
>I'm not sure how well they actually protect "Engineer", but
>"Professional Engineer" is definitely a no-no if you don't
>have the papers and dues paid up to date. Not long ago a guy
>in Florida was whining about being taken to court by the State
>association- he was selling real estate and was claiming he
>was an Engineer to increase his status- he lost, of course.

>On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:03:12 +0100, Michael Rigby-Jones
><RemoveMEmichael.rigby-jonesEraseMEEraseMEbookham.com> wrote:
> > from http://www.dictionary.com
> >
> > Engineer: (n)
> > 1. One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering.
> > 2. One who operates an engine.
> > 3. One who skillfully or shrewdly manages an enterprise.
> >
> > Seems to me that you are fully entitled to call yourself an engineer if you
> > are "professionally engaged in a branch of engineering".  The definition of
> > this terms does not mention any mandatory qualifications.
>
>In certain jurisdictions, it does. In Ontario, the Professional
>Engineers Act requires that for you to advertise yourself as doing
>professional engineering work, you must hold a P. Eng. designation.
>There are 3 criteria in the act, which can be found somewhere at
>http://www.peo.on.ca/
>
>The gist of the whole act is that where life, property or safety are
>concerned, practitioners should put the welfare of society first and
>foremost, and should meet minimum standards of experience and training
>enforced by more experienced practitioners before being allowed to
>approve designs on their own. If a practioner is found to be
>incompetent, or produces / approves work of inferior quality, their
>license can be suspended and fines can be levied. All these decisions
>are made, in Ontario, by peers elected to the Association of
>Professional Engineers. In this way, the profession is
>self-regulating.
>
>Some may argue that this is of limited or no relevance to anything but
>bridge building, but I think that's a misguided position. Computer,
>electronic and software systems are already of great importance to
>financial, health care, food processing and many other applications
>where health, safety or security of property are concerned. I'd rather
>that the desiners of such systems had the approval of an organization
>with a long-standing history of protecting the needs of the public.
>
>And if having more reliable MRI machine or power grid means that the
>guys at the stereo store down the street can't call themselves
>Engineers or that MCSEs can't either... well, I have no problems with
>that.
>
> > Regards
> >
> > Mike
>
>--
>-Randy Glenn
>Computer Eng. and Mgt. Year IV, McMaster University
>Chair, McMaster IEEE Student Branch
>
>randy.glenn-at-gmail.com - glennrb-at-mcmaster.ca
>randy.glenn-at-computer.org - randy_glenn-at-ieee.org
>http://www.randyglenn.ca
>
>--
>http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
>(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

>
> Actually, your cited reference says:
> "Licensed professional engineers can be identified by the P.Eng. after
> their names."
> ....
> "The Society is the advocacy and member services organization formed by
> Ontario engineers to promote their professional and economic interests."
> 'nuff said
>
>
>
> At 09:18 AM 6/21/04, you wrote:
> >On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:03:12 +0100, Michael Rigby-Jones
> ><EraseMEmichael.rigby-jonesspamspamBeGonebookham.com> wrote:
> > > from http://www.dictionary.com
> > >
> > > Engineer: (n)
> > > 1. One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering.
> > > 2. One who operates an engine.
> > > 3. One who skillfully or shrewdly manages an enterprise.
> > >
> > > Seems to me that you are fully entitled to call yourself an engineer if you
> > > are "professionally engaged in a branch of engineering".  The definition of
> > > this terms does not mention any mandatory qualifications.
> >
> >In certain jurisdictions, it does. In Ontario, the Professional
> >Engineers Act requires that for you to advertise yourself as doing
> >professional engineering work, you must hold a P. Eng. designation.
> >There are 3 criteria in the act, which can be found somewhere at
> >http://www.peo.on.ca/
> >
> >The gist of the whole act is that where life, property or safety are
> >concerned, practitioners should put the welfare of society first and
> >foremost, and should meet minimum standards of experience and training
> >enforced by more experienced practitioners before being allowed to
> >approve designs on their own. If a practioner is found to be
> >incompetent, or produces / approves work of inferior quality, their
> >license can be suspended and fines can be levied. All these decisions
> >are made, in Ontario, by peers elected to the Association of
> >Professional Engineers. In this way, the profession is
> >self-regulating.
> >
> >Some may argue that this is of limited or no relevance to anything but
> >bridge building, but I think that's a misguided position. Computer,
> >electronic and software systems are already of great importance to
> >financial, health care, food processing and many other applications
> >where health, safety or security of property are concerned. I'd rather
> >that the desiners of such systems had the approval of an organization
> >with a long-standing history of protecting the needs of the public.
> >
> >And if having more reliable MRI machine or power grid means that the
> >guys at the stereo store down the street can't call themselves
> >Engineers or that MCSEs can't either... well, I have no problems with
> >that.
> >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Mike
> >
> >--
> >-Randy Glenn
> >Computer Eng. and Mgt. Year IV, McMaster University
> >Chair, McMaster IEEE Student Branch
> >
> >randy.glenn-at-gmail.com - glennrb-at-mcmaster.ca
> >randy.glenn-at-computer.org - randy_glenn-at-ieee.org
> >http://www.randyglenn.ca
> >
> >--
> >http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
> >(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
> (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics
>

>
> At 10:56 AM 6/21/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> > From that site:
> >
> >"Like medical or legal professionals, professional engineers are
> >licensed, and are accountable for their work. Their duty is to serve
> >and protect the public welfare where engineering is concerned.
> >Professional engineers subscribe to a strict code of ethics and
> >practice standards. The practice of the profession is regulated by
> >Professional Engineers Ontario.
> >
> >In Canada, the title "professional engineer"; is restricted by law. In
> >Ontario, only those individuals who have demonstrated that they
> >possess the necessary qualifications and have been licensed by PEO can
> >use the title, which is often abbreviated as "P.Eng.". "
>
> As well as "Professional Engineer", "ingénieur" and abbreviations,
> note particularly 40.2.a.1 in the actual Professional Engineers Act
> R.S.O. 1990, CHAPTER P.28 act (previously posted by me).
>
> "uses the title "engineer" or an abbreviation of that title in a manner
> that will
> lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of
> professional engineering"...
> "is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable for..."
>
> And that the ONUS OF PROOF (SPECIFICALLY referring to the above clause)
> IS ON THE DEFENDANT to prove it did NOT cause confusion.
>
> And the penalties ($10-25K) are substantial..
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
> spamBeGonespeffSTOPspamEraseMEinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
> Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
> (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics
>

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>.....
>The enforcement information for Ontario is here:
>http://www.peo.on.ca/enforcement/callmeengineer.htm
>
>The US national version is http://www.nspe.org again, you can feel free to look it
>up.
>
>Jason
>
>
>
>From: "Michael Rigby-Jones" <spamBeGoneMichael.Rigby-JonesEraseMEBOOKHAM.COM>
>Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 2:59 AM
>
>
> > You are comparing apples and oranges. "Engineer" is simply a job title,
>one
> > that is given to you when you are employed in an engineering position.  My
> > contract states that I am a "senior software engineer", yet I do not hold
>a
> > degree in software engineering.
> >
> > The law does not state that you require an appropriate qualification to
> > become an engineer.  You do however, need an appropriate qualification to
> > become a doctor.  Sounds like your councillor was full of something
>smelly.
>
>--
>http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
>(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

>
> ... but the PEO are just a private company (=club) who demand fees to be a
> member - why should they tell Microsoft how to designate hard earned IT
> qualifications? I guess they would be quite happy if MCSE's had to pay the
> PEO a fee!
>
> It strikes me that the protection of the term 'engineer' is largely about
> money.
>
> Peter Moreton
> MCSE (oops!)
>
>
>
>