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'[EE:] Typical Embedded work requirments (Was: Look'
2004\06\19@202805 by Michael W. Olson

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David VanHorn wrote:

><snip>
>No degree though, which seems to be the "kiss of death"..
><snip>
>
>
Quick question, Do companies doing embedded hardware design work hire
people without EE/CompE engineering degrees often? I'm curious because
I'm a CS person interested in perhaps working in this field and it had
seemed to me that a company hiring a non-engineer to design any kind of
hardware would be asking for lawsuits if something went wrong. And while
I have two years of high school vocational electronics technician
education (Not worth so much by my figuring, but probably doing better
than a typical CS only person) I figured I'd need to go back and get a
CompE degree first.

Thanks,
   Michael Olson

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2004\06\19@204506 by David VanHorn

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At 08:28 PM 6/19/2004 -0400, Michael W. Olson wrote:

>David VanHorn wrote:
>
>><snip>
>>No degree though, which seems to be the "kiss of death"..
>><snip>
>>
>Quick question, Do companies doing embedded hardware design work hire
>people without EE/CompE engineering degrees often?

Until now, it's never been a problem for me.
The companies I've worked for have hired both, with roughly equal success.

> I'm curious because
>I'm a CS person interested in perhaps working in this field and it had
>seemed to me that a company hiring a non-engineer to design any kind of
>hardware would be asking for lawsuits if something went wrong.

What's a "non-engineer"?  I've always considered myself an engineer by trade.

Liability doesn't disappear, no matter who does the work.

>And while I have two years of high school vocational electronics technician education (Not worth so much by my figuring, but probably doing better than a typical CS only person) I figured I'd need to go back and get a CompE degree first.

These days, that seems to be what it takes so that the HR person dosen't roundfile your app.

Amusing story, how I got my first job:

I applied at Tashima's Automatic Vending in Wahiawa Hawaii, for a position fixing pong machines and similar games. This is when pong doubles was new, and I was 15(?)  I took the bus up to the place, and asked if I could apply for the job.  Mr Tashima looked me over, and told me that basically I didn't stand much of a chance, but he'd give me the same test he gave everyone else.  He pointed out a video game machine (Space Wars, I wish I had one today!) that needed work. The screen was scrambled and it looked pretty bad.  He told me that if I could fix the machine, the job was mine.  He also told me that he had two Navy ETs in there just before me, who had spent a couple days with scopes and logic probes, and never could fix it. He said if I needed any tools just ask, and let me have at it.

So, I opened it up, and looked at the 1' x 2' card of TTL chips, big linear power supply, monitor, and controls. I had never seen such a large PCB before.  I looked around for a while, sorting things out, then started debugging. After a few minutes, I pulled out a small piece of cardboard that was wedged in the switch that senses the coins.

The machine went "Boop", and I had my first job. :)
It was a lot of fun, and I studied the ATARI manual intently, since it was written for pinball techs and had full data sheets and logic diagrams for all the logic, and truth tables.  Atari gave me my first real education in digital logic.

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2004\06\20@012120 by Jason S

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----- Original Message -----
From: "David VanHorn" <dvanhornspamKILLspamCEDAR.NET>
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 5:44 PM

> What's a "non-engineer"?  I've always considered myself an engineer by
trade.

An Engineer is someone who has received an accredited Engineering degree.
They belong to a certification organization that gives them the title
"Professional Engineer".  To get an accredited degree, there are a lot of
hoops to jump through involving ethics as well as technical knowledge.

> Liability doesn't disappear, no matter who does the work.

A hospital employing someone without a doctor's license to do medical work
has a huge amount of liability.  It is the same when you hire a
non-engineer.  The engineer's license is comparable to a medical license.

Same goes for lawyers, electricians, and a lot of other jobs.

I have a Computer Science degree, and when I was doing an internship, I used
the title "Software Engineer".  My job consillor from school was a P.Eng,
and said that I could get in a lot of legal trouble for using that title.

Jason

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2004\06\20@021835 by William Chops Westfield

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On Saturday, Jun 19, 2004, at 17:28 US/Pacific, Michael W. Olson wrote:

>  Do companies doing embedded hardware design work hire
> people without EE/CompE engineering degrees often? I'm curious because
> I'm a CS person interested in perhaps working in this field and it had
> seemed to me that a company hiring a non-engineer to design any kind of
> hardware would be asking for lawsuits if something went wrong.

In the US, at least, most EE/CompE jobs do not require "certification"
as any sort of professional engineer, as I understand is needed in some
other countries.  YMMV if you start talking about systems embedded in
major civil engineering projects, or government work.

Put another way, in the US, if something goes wrong, companies can
expect to be sued regardless of the qualifications of anyone who worked
on the actual devices involved.

Getting a job without a degree is easier when you're young, as far as I
can tell.  Get that 20 years of experience, and employers start to use
it as an excuse not to pay the salaries normally due someone with 20
years of experience :-(  In some sense it's part of the age
discrimination thing and happens regardless of degrees.  Employers
would rather have a cheap but sharp newbie than someone who has an
"equivilent" level of "sharpness" from 20y of experience, and comes
with the salary history and ... curmudgeonly personality that tends to
come with it.

BillW

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2004\06\20@153831 by ColinC

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>I have a Computer Science degree, and when I was doing an internship, I used
>the title "Software Engineer".  My job consillor from school was a P.Eng,
>and said that I could get in a lot of legal trouble for using that title.
>
>Jason
>
There's sometimes a difference between the job title and your title.
When I was doing documentation for HP, my job title was "Learning
Products Engineer",  but I was a Technical Writer.

Colin

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2004\06\20@163055 by John N. Power

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> From:         Jason S[SMTP:.....picKILLspamspam.....CANADASPEAKS.COM]
> Sent:         Sunday, June 20, 2004 1:25 AM
> To:   EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject:      Re: [EE:] Typical Embedded work requirments (Was: Looking for work)

> {Original Message removed}

2004\06\20@170134 by David VanHorn

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>
>> I have a Computer Science degree, and when I was doing an internship, I used
>> the title "Software Engineer".  My job consillor from school was a P.Eng,
>> and said that I could get in a lot of legal trouble for using that title.
>
>> Jason
>
>You should have told your counselor that he could get into trouble for giving
>legal advice without being a lawyer.

I think for civil engineering, (dams and bridges) that's true.

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2004\06\20@184410 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 04:02 PM 6/20/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >> I have a Computer Science degree, and when I was doing an internship,
> I used
> >> the title "Software Engineer".  My job consillor from school was a P.Eng,
> >> and said that I could get in a lot of legal trouble for using that title.
> >
> >> Jason
> >
> >You should have told your counselor that he could get into trouble for
> giving
> >legal advice without being a lawyer.
>
>I think for civil engineering, (dams and bridges) that's true.

In Ontario it's true in general. I have an engineering degree from an Ivy
league class school but don't use the Engineer title because I have not
bothered to go through the hassles and pay the regular fees for a P. Eng
(more or less equivalent to US P.E.)

I'm not sure how well they actually protect "Engineer", but "Professional
Engineer" is definitely a no-no if you don't have the papers and dues
paid up to date. Not long ago a guy in Florida was whining about being
taken to court by the State association- he was selling real estate and
was claiming he was an Engineer to increase his status- he lost, of course.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
speffspamspam_OUTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

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2004\06\20@221253 by Bob Blick

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ROTFL!

On 20 Jun 2004 at 16:29, John N. Power wrote:
> > the title "Software Engineer".  My job consillor from school was a P.Eng,
> > and said that I could get in a lot of legal trouble for using that title.
> > Jason
>
> You should have told your counselor that he could get into trouble for giving
> legal advice without being a lawyer.
> John Power

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2004\06\20@235523 by Matthew Brush

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Hehehe ... the best one is that I'm a "Microsoft
Certified Systems Engineer".  There was a point when
Microsoft was "getting in trouble" by universities for
issuing the title Engineer, but they sent me
correspondence saying I could still call myself a
systems engineer.  Personally I don't consider my self
a systems engineer, although I do know windows
networking pretty damn good.

If you are unsure whether or not to use "Engineer",
just stick "self-proclaimed" in front of it, you
should be safe.  HEHEHEHE

Cheers


=====
MJ Brush
LeftClick.ca Internet Media Services
mbrush@[NOSPAM]leftclick.ca

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

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2004\06\21@055912 by hael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

You are comparing apples and oranges. "Engineer" is simply a job title, one
that is given to you when you are employed in an engineering position.  My
contract states that I am a "senior software engineer", yet I do not hold a
degree in software engineering.

The law does not state that you require an appropriate qualification to
become an engineer.  You do however, need an appropriate qualification to
become a doctor.  Sounds like your councillor was full of something smelly.

Regards

Mike




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2004\06\21@060301 by hael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

from http://www.dictionary.com

Engineer: (n)
1. One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering.
2. One who operates an engine.
3. One who skillfully or shrewdly manages an enterprise.

Seems to me that you are fully entitled to call yourself an engineer if you
are "professionally engaged in a branch of engineering".  The definition of
this terms does not mention any mandatory qualifications.

Regards

Mike




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2004\06\21@065113 by Russell McMahon

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> >I'm not sure how well they actually protect "Engineer", but
> >"Professional Engineer" is definitely a no-no if you don't
> >have the papers and dues paid up to date. Not long ago a guy
> >in Florida was whining about being taken to court by the State
> >association- he was selling real estate and was claiming he
> >was an Engineer to increase his status- he lost, of course.


In New Zealand I am, and have for many years, been a Professional Engineer.
I have for several decades been, but recently stopped being, a  "Registered
Engineer" as this title has recently been captured by those to whom status
and old school tie is more important than capability. To have remained as an
RE I would have had to have joined the appropriate body, attended regular
formally recognised retraining or ongoing training courses, kept formal logs
of same and generally bowed and scraped to the appropriate self perpetuating
body. And also paid annual fees in excess AFAIR of ten times what I
previously paid to maintain my RE registration. While for some, such
membership is vital to their career, for me the game was not worth the
candle. As many here would realise, I appreciate the need for retention of
capability and for continuing learning about new areas of relevance to my
job (and many new areas of total irrelevance as well). But I have not the
time or inclination to dance to these pipers, or pay the pointless fees
required to have them regulate me.

Ironically, I am still, under act of parliament, a "qualified person" in the
areas of importance to me. Such a recognition has not been extended to more
newly qualified engineers under the act and they will now be functionally
less permitted to act in practical manners in areas of electrical activity
than are eg electricians. Maybe I should add "QP" to my card :-)

In NZ it used to be that only Doctors and people with PhDs could call
themselves Doctors. Some years ago dentists also started doing it - on what
basis I do not know. It seems to be considered official now. So that's one
up for the dentists and one down for the qualified persons.




       RM

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2004\06\21@092521 by Randy Glenn

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On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:03:12 +0100, Michael Rigby-Jones
<EraseMEmichael.rigby-jonesspambookham.com> wrote:
> from http://www.dictionary.com
>
> Engineer: (n)
> 1. One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering.
> 2. One who operates an engine.
> 3. One who skillfully or shrewdly manages an enterprise.
>
> Seems to me that you are fully entitled to call yourself an engineer if you
> are "professionally engaged in a branch of engineering".  The definition of
> this terms does not mention any mandatory qualifications.

In certain jurisdictions, it does. In Ontario, the Professional
Engineers Act requires that for you to advertise yourself as doing
professional engineering work, you must hold a P. Eng. designation.
There are 3 criteria in the act, which can be found somewhere at
http://www.peo.on.ca/

The gist of the whole act is that where life, property or safety are
concerned, practitioners should put the welfare of society first and
foremost, and should meet minimum standards of experience and training
enforced by more experienced practitioners before being allowed to
approve designs on their own. If a practioner is found to be
incompetent, or produces / approves work of inferior quality, their
license can be suspended and fines can be levied. All these decisions
are made, in Ontario, by peers elected to the Association of
Professional Engineers. In this way, the profession is
self-regulating.

Some may argue that this is of limited or no relevance to anything but
bridge building, but I think that's a misguided position. Computer,
electronic and software systems are already of great importance to
financial, health care, food processing and many other applications
where health, safety or security of property are concerned. I'd rather
that the desiners of such systems had the approval of an organization
with a long-standing history of protecting the needs of the public.

And if having more reliable MRI machine or power grid means that the
guys at the stereo store down the street can't call themselves
Engineers or that MCSEs can't either... well, I have no problems with
that.

> Regards
>
> Mike

--
-Randy Glenn
Computer Eng. and Mgt. Year IV, McMaster University
Chair, McMaster IEEE Student Branch

randy.glenn-at-gmail.com - glennrb-at-mcmaster.ca
randy.glenn-at-computer.org - randy_glenn-at-ieee.org
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2004\06\21@104511 by Dave Lag

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Actually, your cited reference says:
"Licensed professional engineers can be identified by the P.Eng. after
their names."
....
"The Society is the advocacy and member services organization formed by
Ontario engineers to promote their professional and economic interests."
'nuff said


At 09:18 AM 6/21/04, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\21@105444 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 10:45 AM 6/21/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Actually, your cited reference says:
>"Licensed professional engineers can be identified by the P.Eng. after
>their names."
>....
>"The Society is the advocacy and member services organization formed by
>Ontario engineers to promote their professional and economic interests."
>'nuff said

The actual act:

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Statutes/English/90p28_e.htm

Penalties
40. (1) Every person who contravenes section 12 is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable for the first offence to a fine of not more than $25,000 and for each subsequent offence to a fine of not more than $50,000. R.S.O. 1990, c. P.28, s. 40 (1).

Idem, use of term "professional engineer", etc.
(2) Every person who is not a holder of a licence or a temporary licence and who,
(a) uses the title "professional engineer" or "ingénieur" or an abbreviation or variation thereof as an occupational or business designation;
(a.1) uses the title "engineer" or an abbreviation of that title in a manner that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering;
(b) uses a term, title or description that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering; or
(c) uses a seal that will lead to the belief that the person is a professional engineer,
is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable for the first offence to a fine of not more than $10,000 and for each subsequent offence to a fine of not more than $25,000. R.S.O. 1990, c. P.28, s. 40 (2); 2001, c. 9, Sched. B, s. 11 (59).
Onus of proof
(2.1) In a proceeding for an alleged contravention of clause (2) (a.1), the burden of proving that the use of the title or abbreviation will not lead to the belief referred to is on the defendant, unless the defendant's use of the title or abbreviation is authorized or required by an Act or regulation. 2001, c. 9, Sched. B, s. 11 (60).

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
RemoveMEspeffspam_OUTspamKILLspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
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2004\06\21@110315 by Randy Glenn

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From that site:

"Like medical or legal professionals, professional engineers are
licensed, and are accountable for their work. Their duty is to serve
and protect the public welfare where engineering is concerned.
Professional engineers subscribe to a strict code of ethics and
practice standards. The practice of the profession is regulated by
Professional Engineers Ontario.

In Canada, the title "professional engineer"; is restricted by law. In
Ontario, only those individuals who have demonstrated that they
possess the necessary qualifications and have been licensed by PEO can
use the title, which is often abbreviated as "P.Eng.". "

http://www.peo.on.ca/registration/l&rpage1.html

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:45:26 -0400, Dave Lag <RemoveMEdavescomputerTakeThisOuTspamspamrogers.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
-Randy Glenn
Computer Eng. and Mgt. Year IV, McMaster University
Chair, McMaster IEEE Student Branch

randy.glenn-at-gmail.com - glennrb-at-mcmaster.ca
randy.glenn-at-computer.org - randy_glenn-at-ieee.org
http://www.randyglenn.ca

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2004\06\21@111521 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 10:56 AM 6/21/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> From that site:
>
>"Like medical or legal professionals, professional engineers are
>licensed, and are accountable for their work. Their duty is to serve
>and protect the public welfare where engineering is concerned.
>Professional engineers subscribe to a strict code of ethics and
>practice standards. The practice of the profession is regulated by
>Professional Engineers Ontario.
>
>In Canada, the title "professional engineer"; is restricted by law. In
>Ontario, only those individuals who have demonstrated that they
>possess the necessary qualifications and have been licensed by PEO can
>use the title, which is often abbreviated as "P.Eng.". "

As well as "Professional Engineer", "ingénieur" and abbreviations,
note particularly 40.2.a.1 in the actual Professional Engineers Act
R.S.O. 1990, CHAPTER P.28 act (previously posted by me).

"uses the title "engineer" or an abbreviation of that title in a manner that will
lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering"...
"is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable for..."

And that the ONUS OF PROOF (SPECIFICALLY referring to the above clause)
IS ON THE DEFENDANT to prove it did NOT cause confusion.

And the penalties ($10-25K) are substantial..

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
RemoveMEspeffKILLspamspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

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2004\06\21@113442 by Randy Glenn

picon face
Looks like I need to go back and read The Act again - a bit behind on
the specifics. (Should probably do that before the ethics course next
term...)

Why do I get the feeling that you're a P. Eng.?

Incidentally, GMail ads have been somewhat, um, informative on this
topic. A couple of them:

Want an Engineering Career? Earn your degree 100% online.
New York Profession Engineer Seals Free Shipping - Volume Discounts

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:26:36 -0400, Spehro Pefhany <speffSTOPspamspamspam_OUTinterlog.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

-- -Randy Glenn
Computer Eng. and Mgt. Year IV, McMaster University
Chair, McMaster IEEE Student Branch

randy.glenn-at-gmail.com - glennrb-at-mcmaster.ca
randy.glenn-at-computer.org - randy_glenn-at-ieee.org
http://www.randyglenn.ca

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2004\06\21@115309 by David VanHorn

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>
>Engineer: (n)
>1. One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering.
>2. One who operates an engine.
>3. One who skillfully or shrewdly manages an enterprise.
>
>Seems to me that you are fully entitled to call yourself an engineer if you are "professionally engaged in a branch of engineering".  The definition of this terms does not mention any mandatory qualifications.
>
>Regards
>Mike


Or operating a lawnmower, apparently.  Who knew it was this easy! :)

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2004\06\21@120600 by David VanHorn

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>
>Want an Engineering Career? Earn your degree 100% online.
>New York Profession Engineer Seals Free Shipping - Volume Discounts


One fellow who I trust, suggested that I resort to a diploma mill.
This one came in the email the other day..


{Quote hidden}

d00d I g0t An 3l33t d3gr33! :)

Somehow, I think I'll pass.

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2004\06\21@130225 by llile

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In the State of Missouri it is illegal to title a business with the word
"engineer" or "Engineering" unless that business is owned by a licensed
professional engineer.  That did not stop "Woodman Engineering", which
sells garage doors, located about three blocks away from the Capitol
building, from claiming that title. There is no requirement that the
business actually do anything in particular, just has to have  P.E.
hanging around.

P.E.'s are not just for dams and bridges anymore.  I worked ten years
designing electrical power and lighting for public buildings.  Here is an example



It is not illegal to call *yourself* an engineer, for instance a recycling
engineer might be the guy who picks up your trash.


-- Lawrence Lile, P.E.
Lile Engineering
Selling Surplus Nichrome Wire
for the hobbyist and experimenter
http://www.lile.biz





Spehro Pefhany <KILLspamspeffspamBeGonespamINTERLOG.COM>
Sent by: pic microcontroller discussion list <EraseMEPICLISTspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
06/20/2004 05:53 PM
Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list


       To:     @spam@PICLIST@spam@spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
       cc:
       Subject:        Re: [EE:] Typical Embedded work requirments (Was: Looking for work)


At 04:02 PM 6/20/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >> I have a Computer Science degree, and when I was doing an internship,
> I used
> >> the title "Software Engineer".  My job consillor from school was a
P.Eng,
> >> and said that I could get in a lot of legal trouble for using that
title.
> >
> >> Jason
> >
> >You should have told your counselor that he could get into trouble for
> giving
> >legal advice without being a lawyer.
>
>I think for civil engineering, (dams and bridges) that's true.

In Ontario it's true in general. I have an engineering degree from an Ivy
league class school but don't use the Engineer title because I have not
bothered to go through the hassles and pay the regular fees for a P. Eng
(more or less equivalent to US P.E.)

I'm not sure how well they actually protect "Engineer", but "Professional
Engineer" is definitely a no-no if you don't have the papers and dues
paid up to date. Not long ago a guy in Florida was whining about being
taken to court by the State association- he was selling real estate and
was claiming he was an Engineer to increase his status- he lost, of
course.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the
reward"
spamBeGonespeffspamKILLspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

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2004\06\21@131509 by llile

flavicon
face
>Here is an example
No link.

Hmm - PIClist listserve must be stripping off embedded links these days.
Anyway here is an example if anyone gives a hoot.


http://www.missouri.edu/images2/art/jesse/jesse_night2.jpg


-- Lawrence Lile






.....llilespam_OUTspamSALTONUSA.COM
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06/21/2004 12:02 PM
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       To:     TakeThisOuTPICLISTKILLspamspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
       cc:
       Subject:        Re: [EE:] Typical Embedded work requirments (Was: Looking for work)


In the State of Missouri it is illegal to title a business with the word
"engineer" or "Engineering" unless that business is owned by a licensed
professional engineer.  That did not stop "Woodman Engineering", which
sells garage doors, located about three blocks away from the Capitol
building, from claiming that title. There is no requirement that the
business actually do anything in particular, just has to have  P.E.
hanging around.

P.E.'s are not just for dams and bridges anymore.  I worked ten years
designing electrical power and lighting for public buildings.  Here is an
example



It is not illegal to call *yourself* an engineer, for instance a recycling
engineer might be the guy who picks up your trash.


-- Lawrence Lile, P.E.
Lile Engineering
Selling Surplus Nichrome Wire
for the hobbyist and experimenter
http://www.lile.biz





Spehro Pefhany <.....speffspamRemoveMEINTERLOG.COM>
Sent by: pic microcontroller discussion list <RemoveMEPICLISTspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
06/20/2004 05:53 PM
Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list


       To:     spamBeGonePICLIST@spam@spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
       cc:
       Subject:        Re: [EE:] Typical Embedded work requirments (Was:
Looking for work)


At 04:02 PM 6/20/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >> I have a Computer Science degree, and when I was doing an internship,
> I used
> >> the title "Software Engineer".  My job consillor from school was a
P.Eng,
> >> and said that I could get in a lot of legal trouble for using that
title.
> >
> >> Jason
> >
> >You should have told your counselor that he could get into trouble for
> giving
> >legal advice without being a lawyer.
>
>I think for civil engineering, (dams and bridges) that's true.

In Ontario it's true in general. I have an engineering degree from an Ivy
league class school but don't use the Engineer title because I have not
bothered to go through the hassles and pay the regular fees for a P. Eng
(more or less equivalent to US P.E.)

I'm not sure how well they actually protect "Engineer", but "Professional
Engineer" is definitely a no-no if you don't have the papers and dues
paid up to date. Not long ago a guy in Florida was whining about being
taken to court by the State association- he was selling real estate and
was claiming he was an Engineer to increase his status- he lost, of
course.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the
reward"
TakeThisOuTspeffspamspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

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2004\06\21@132959 by Mike Hord

picon face
>You are comparing apples and oranges. "Engineer" is simply a job title, one
>that is given to you when you are employed in an engineering position.  My
>contract states that I am a "senior software engineer", yet I do not hold a
>degree in software engineering.

I think "engineer" connotes a certain responsibility, and I also think that,
as a
term, it is being assigned to positions far too lightly.

See "sanitation engineer" for more info.

Mike H.

>The law does not state that you require an appropriate qualification to
>become an engineer.  You do however, need an appropriate qualification to
>become a doctor.  Sounds like your councillor was full of something smelly.
>
>Regards
>
>Mike

_________________________________________________________________
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2004\06\21@153001 by John N. Power

flavicon
face
> From:         David VanHorn[SMTP:dvanhornEraseMEspamCEDAR.NET]
> Sent:         Sunday, June 20, 2004 5:02 PM
> To:   RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject:      Re: [EE:] Typical Embedded work requirments (Was: Looking for work)

>>
>>> I have a Computer Science degree, and when I was doing an internship, I used
>>> the title "Software Engineer".  My job consillor from school was a P.Eng,
>>> and said that I could get in a lot of legal trouble for using that title.
>>
>>> Jason
>>
>>You should have told your counselor that he could get into trouble for giving
>>legal advice without being a lawyer.

>I think for civil engineering, (dams and bridges) that's true.

There may be jobs for which a PE degree is required; that is not the
issue. Can anyone say that only a PE can call himself an engineer?
It is the exclusive nature of the claim that is the problem here.

John Power

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2004\06\21@153004 by John N. Power

flavicon
face
> From:         Michael Rigby-Jones[SMTP:@spam@Michael.Rigby-JonesRemoveMEspamEraseMEBOOKHAM.COM]
> Sent:         Monday, June 21, 2004 5:59 AM
> To:   EraseMEPICLISTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject:      Re: [EE:] Typical Embedded work requirments (Was: Looking for wor k)

>>{Original Message removed}

2004\06\21@155427 by Jason S

flavicon
face
There are laws in Canada that say you can not use Engineer as a job title in
the US.  The "Professional Engineers Act, 1990" can be found here:
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Statutes/English/90p28_e.htm

Take a look at section 40.2 specifically.  You can't use the title
"Professional Engineer" at all, and you can't use the title "Engineer" in a
manner with will lead people to think you practice Engineering.

There are similar US laws.  Feel free to look them up.

The enforcement information for Ontario is here:
http://www.peo.on.ca/enforcement/callmeengineer.htm

The US national version is http://www.nspe.org again, you can feel free to look it
up.

Jason



From: "Michael Rigby-Jones" <@spam@Michael.Rigby-Jonesspam_OUTspam.....BOOKHAM.COM>
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 2:59 AM


> You are comparing apples and oranges. "Engineer" is simply a job title,
one
> that is given to you when you are employed in an engineering position.  My
> contract states that I am a "senior software engineer", yet I do not hold
a
> degree in software engineering.
>
> The law does not state that you require an appropriate qualification to
> become an engineer.  You do however, need an appropriate qualification to
> become a doctor.  Sounds like your councillor was full of something
smelly.

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2004\06\21@161022 by Bob Blick
face picon face
> There are laws in Canada that say you can not use Engineer as a job title
> in
> the US.  The "Professional Engineers Act, 1990" can be found here:
> http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Statutes/English/90p28_e.htm
>
> Take a look at section 40.2 specifically.  You can't use the title
> "Professional Engineer" at all, and you can't use the title "Engineer" in
> a
> manner with will lead people to think you practice Engineering.
>
> There are similar US laws.  Feel free to look them up.

I had some automobile work done at a shop that had a sign outside
suggesting a Perfect Circle "Doctor of Motors" could be found within. It
was an old sign, but the name of the garage was "Old Car Garage", so
perhaps the proprietor was grandfathered in :-)

My feeling is that the United States is one of those places where people
tend to judge others on their merits, at least more so than in other
countries. The use of titles is less important, and perhaps less
regulated.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

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2004\06\21@164751 by Dave Lag

picon face
At 03:59 PM 6/21/04, you wrote:
hmmm
good luck with that lawsuit against microsoft  ;)

{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\21@174145 by Peter Moreton

flavicon
face
... but the PEO are just a private company (=club) who demand fees to be a
member - why should they tell Microsoft how to designate hard earned IT
qualifications? I guess they would be quite happy if MCSE's had to pay the
PEO a fee!

It strikes me that the protection of the term 'engineer' is largely about
money.

Peter Moreton
MCSE (oops!)



> {Original Message removed}

2004\06\21@192832 by Randy Glenn

picon face
"Just" a "private club" that happens to be a non-profit organization,
and just happens to have a governmental mandate to regulate Engineers,
and several members appointed by said government.

They charge dues to keep the organization going. Many professional
organizations do: college of Physicians and Surgeons, the Bar
Association, Society of Actuaries, College of Pharmacists, etc. Each
of these organizations has a mandate to police its members.

As a student member of the PEO, I'm somewhat insulted that you think
the organization is about money. It's not - it's about ensuring that
Engineering is taught properly, and that Engineers are of the highest
calibre, worthy of the public's trust.

And I can tell you that I know several long-standing PEO members
(members longer than I've been alive) who would be a tad more than
miffed at your insinuation that the PEO is some sort of protection
racket.

And for the record, an MCSE could join the PEO if the activities they
engage in are a recognized, standardized form of Engineering, and are
willing to demonstrate their competence in said field.

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:40:57 +0100, Peter Moreton
<peter.moretonspamBeGonespamvirgin.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

2004\06\21@214438 by Bob Blick

face picon face
On 21 Jun 2004 at 19:21, Randy Glenn wrote:
> And for the record, an MCSE could join the PEO if the activities they
> engage in are a recognized, standardized form of Engineering, and are
> willing to demonstrate their competence in said field.


I suppose the reverse would be true as well - any PEO is welcome to
demonstrate their competence in a recognized, standardized form of
Engineering could get an MCSE.

Personally I think it's fair for someone to call himself a PEO if he's a
PEO, and MCSE if he's an MCSE, and an Engineer if he's employed as
an Engineer. Or if he drives a train.

But a deathmatch is probably the best way to prove yourself - PEO
against MCSE :-)

Cheerful regards,

Bob

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2004\06\21@220556 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
Sunday Sunday Sunday!
One night only!
See the amazing PEO take on the challenger MCSE at the coliseum!
Action! Thrills!
Special appearance by Truck-a-saurus!
You'll pay for the whole seat...but you'll only use the EDGE!!!

*ahem*

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:41:16 -0700, Bob Blick <RemoveMEbblick@spam@spamspamBeGonesonic.net> wrote:
> But a deathmatch is probably the best way to prove yourself - PEO
> against MCSE :-)

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2004\06\23@010447 by T.C. Phelps

picon face
> You are comparing apples and oranges. "Engineer" is
> simply a job title, one that is given to you when
> you are employed in an engineering position.  My
> contract states that I am a "senior software
> engineer", yet I do not hold a degree in software
> engineering.
>
> The law does not state that you require an
> appropriate qualification to become an engineer.
> You do however, need an appropriate qualification to
> become a doctor.  Sounds like your councillor was
> full of something smelly.
>
> Regards
>
> Mike


The councillor was being a bit vague or prideful maybe
-- but you can find yourself in court under certain
circumstances. Up here in Alberta, our professional
organization (APEGGA) can and will go after you if you
are a non-Eng but are advertising yourself as an
Engineer for purposes of obtaining contracts (I guess
policing people who would report themselves as
Engineers and attempt to design buildings or machinery
comes under the banner of protecting the association's
image). There are no laws now but they are currently
trying to get legislation in place to make it strictly
illegal. At any rate if a person doesn't respond to
their desist letter they'll sue. I think they dislike
people explicitly saying they're engineers on their
resume (as opposed to saying they held the position of
something-or-other Engineer at firm X), but I highly
doubt they'd ever do anything about that sort of thing
-- they'll tend to stick to the major violators. Of
course, I'd sure laugh if they went after the
Microsoft Certified Engineers or the Sanitation
Engineers. :)

- Todd.



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2004\06\26@113848 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:04:00 -0700, T.C. Phelps wrote:

> Up here in Alberta, our professional organization (APEGGA) can and will go after you if you are a non-Eng
but are advertising yourself as an Engineer

In Britain there is no such issue - anyone can call themselves anything if they aren't attempting to deceive
by doing so.  There is a big difference between Titles, and Job Titles.  It is wrong (although US news
reporters seem to do it often) to refer to "Prime Minister Blair" - that's his job, not his title: he is "Mr.
Blair, The Prime Minister" (or vice versa).

When it comes to professional qualifications, it's done by putting "letters after the name" and you become
eligible for them by being accepted into the body that "owns" them, and they will persue anyone who uses them
without entitlement.  So for example, you could see "John Smith MIMechE" (Member of the Institute of
Mechanical Engineers) and know that he is accredited in his profession, and assume he knows how to handle a
spanner :-)))

Misuse of job titles, such as calling yourself a Civil Engineer and putting yourself across as someone who can
design bridges, would be illegal under the normal rules of fraud and passing off, where the illegal act is in
telling lies about your ability, not in adopting the job title.

Cheers,

Howard Winter (former MRI)
St.Albans, England

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